public inbox for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
@ 2011-12-02 14:41 LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 15:00 ` Andrew Tchernoivanov
  2011-12-02 17:50 ` [gentoo-user] " Mick
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-02 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Hello,

Does one have the experience for the following:

gentoo vs openSUSE

for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
etc..etc...

Best Regards.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 14:41 [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-02 15:00 ` Andrew Tchernoivanov
  2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 17:50 ` [gentoo-user] " Mick
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Tchernoivanov @ 2011-12-02 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1212 bytes --]

Hi!

I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

About DE:
 I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
little changes with networking).

Applications:
 I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
General applications like LibreOffice,
Gimp, browser works fine too.

The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
loads CPU by 90% while searching
for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
useful by using this application.

Hope this helps you.

P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 6:41 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does one have the experience for the following:
>
> gentoo vs openSUSE
>
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
>
> Best Regards.
>
>


-- 
С уважением,
Черноиванов Андрей

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1706 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 15:00 ` Andrew Tchernoivanov
@ 2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-02 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

2011/12/2 Andrew Tchernoivanov:

> Hi!

Hello.

> I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
> x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
> what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

Ok well.

> About DE:
>  I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
> little changes with networking).

> Applications:
>  I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
> General applications like LibreOffice,
> Gimp, browser works fine too.

> The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
> loads CPU by 90% while searching
> for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
> useful by using this application.

Okay.

> Hope this helps you.

Yeah.

> P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.

Not a problem, that is also not a native language for me!

Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

Cheers.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 14:41 [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 15:00 ` Andrew Tchernoivanov
@ 2011-12-02 17:50 ` Mick
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Mick @ 2011-12-02 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 3072 bytes --]

On Friday 02 Dec 2011 14:41:29 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Does one have the experience for the following:
> 
> gentoo vs openSUSE
> 
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
> 
> Best Regards.

If you want *exactly* what OpenSUSE have included in their distro then 
OpenSUSE is for you.  Some applications and the whole system will run slower 
than Gentoo.  Invariably some applications could experience crashes and what 
not - any distro would from time to time have such problems and may not be 
distro specific anyway, but application specific.

If you want to include additional applications or versions of applications 
that OpenSUSE repos do not cater for, then you may run into dependency hell.  
At best, some apps will just not install or work as intended.  At worst you 
could break the underlying distro if you try hard enough and have to 
reinstall.

With Gentoo you have higher flexibility on what you install and portage is 
definitely thousands times better than YaST, in terms of configurabilty.  You 
will still get the odd application that is buggy, but as a rule your system 
will run lighter and faster because each binary is compiled from source with 
the CFALGS and USE flags that you have specified for your system.  On the other 
hand it will take some time and effort to keep your Gentoo up to date.

Another difference between OpenSUSE and Gentoo is that you will not need to 
reinstall Gentoo to get the latest desktop, or init system or what-ever system 
wide upgrade is next.  With OpenSUSE upgrades imply a reinstallation (unless 
YaST got cleverer since the last time I used it).  Invariably you will also 
never need to reinstall Gentoo to fix any breakages - most problems you may 
come across you will learn how to recover from with clever use of portage.

In conclusion:

If you prefer quick installation and easy/quick updates, but with limited 
choice on what gets installed and how it is configured, and the OpenSUSE suite 
of packages will meet your application needs comprehensively, then OpenSUSE is 
a well polished distro that will fit the bill.

If you value higher performance and a much higher degree of configurability, 
then Gentoo will be your choice;  but that comes at the expense of a 
protracted installation process (especially if you have not done this before) 
and some admin time on a regular basis to keep your system and applications up 
to date.

With Gentoo you will be *forced* to learn a lot to install your system and 
keep it running.  With OpenSUSE the learning curve will likely be considerably 
flatter.

It would be advisable to try them both out in LiveCDs (or even install them in 
VMs) to see which you feel more comfortable working with.  For a Gentoo based 
LiveCD you could try Sabayon:  http://www.sabayon.org/ and this may also be 
used for a quick (binary) installation of a Gentoo-like system.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
  2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03 10:32     ` Stroller
  2011-12-03 13:13     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-02 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for 
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from 
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is 
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo 
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers. 

"Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux, 
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you 
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the 
impression that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be 
installed by a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I 
used Mandrake for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to 
a point where Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get 
everything working still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.

The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other 
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time 
in to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to 
compile everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my 
Brother.  It is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I 
learn anything about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made 
to teach a lot about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and 
quickly without much fuss.

I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
@ 2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-03  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3124 bytes --]

On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> LinuxIsOne wrote:
>>
>> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
>
> "Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux,
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the impression
that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be installed by
a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I used Mandrake
for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to a point where
Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get everything working
still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.
>
> The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time in
to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to compile
everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my Brother.  It
is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I learn anything
about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made to teach a lot
about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and quickly without much
fuss.
>
> I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol
>

Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)

But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux
distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to speak,
but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit "what's going
on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes piece of  cake.

The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance,
packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* have
a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are in env.d
and profile.d. And so on.

I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red Hat,
CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for its
logicality.

Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my
specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro
maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros allow
you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?

Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
myself.

Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency hell.
Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro maintainer re:
versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a library that's newer
than the current 'stable' version, I can just keyword the needed version
and compile away.

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3481 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-03  2:17           ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-03  4:36         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Frank Steinmetzger @ 2011-12-03  1:22 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 950 bytes --]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >>
> >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
> novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
> why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
> Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.

A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting, because it
only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look into
your settings to correct it? Thanks.
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Experience -- specialist term for tried mistakes of older employees.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
@ 2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-03  3:54           ` Pandu Poluan
                             ` (2 more replies)
  2011-12-03  4:36         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-03  2:09 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> myself.

This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

-- 
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
@ 2011-12-03  2:17           ` Pandu Poluan
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-03  2:17 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: Frank Steinmetzger, gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 944 bytes --]

On Dec 3, 2011 8:25 AM, "Frank Steinmetzger" <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better
for a
> > novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's
> > why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> > don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the
same
> > Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
> A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting,
because it
> only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
> following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look
into
> your settings to correct it? Thanks.

*sighs*

Blame it on Google...

I'm typing on Android's Gmail client.

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1267 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-03  3:54           ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  4:20           ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
  2011-12-03  4:39           ` [gentoo-user] " Frank Steinmetzger
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-03  3:54 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 845 bytes --]

On Dec 3, 2011 9:14 AM, "Michael Mol" <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of
the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile
it
> > myself.
>
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>

Ha, same with me :-)

But in my case, it's esoteric stuffs like: latest iptables, xtables-addons
(and its ipset modules), fetchmail, postgreSQL, ... and an initramfs-less
system :-)

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1086 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-03  3:54           ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-03  4:20           ` Jack Byer
  2011-12-03  4:41             ` Dale
  2011-12-03  4:39           ` [gentoo-user] " Frank Steinmetzger
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Jack Byer @ 2011-12-03  4:20 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Michael Mol wrote:

> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
> 

I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more 
user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and 
compilation procedures.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-03  4:36         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-03  4:36 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Pandu Poluan wrote:
>
>
> Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)
>
> But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux 
> distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to 
> speak, but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit 
> "what's going on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes 
> piece of  cake.
>
> The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance, 
> packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* 
> have a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are 
> in env.d and profile.d. And so on.
>
> I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red 
> Hat, CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for 
> its logicality.
>
> Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my 
> specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro 
> maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros 
> allow you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?
>
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of 
> the box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project 
> that hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and 
> compile it myself.
>
> Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency 
> hell. Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro 
> maintainer re: versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a 
> library that's newer than the current 'stable' version, I can just 
> keyword the needed version and compile away.
>
> Rgds,
>


This is true but the OP may not really need this type of control.  Most 
people, newcomers especially, just want something that is easy and sort 
of learn a bit and see if Linux is for them.  Some people just aren't 
wanting to be geeky at all.  They want a OS that will take care of 
everything for them.  In that case, Gentoo is not going to be worth the 
effort.

Me, I have a Desktop with no real special needs.  I just wanted to be 
able to learn about Linux, not have some bunch of junk that I never ever 
intend to use installed and be able to update without standing on my 
head with my small toe up one nostril trying to jump hoops.  Mandrake 
had a horrible update process and I got tired of it quick.  If you could 
insert CD, install and not need to update anything, then you were good 
to go.  If you install and then need to update something, oooops.  Flip 
upside down and assume the position.

Gentoo does have a lot of good points, especially for me.  It is just 
not going to be easy and hand holding at first for a newcomer.  The OP 
will learn a lot and as I pointed out, it can be addicting.  Just turn 
off the quiet output setting and see what Linux is really all about.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-03  3:54           ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-03  4:20           ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
@ 2011-12-03  4:39           ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Frank Steinmetzger @ 2011-12-03  4:39 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1362 bytes --]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 09:09:38PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> > myself.
> 
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

Though Gentoo was my first distro to begin with, the devel stuff in
Debian/Ubuntu is also a big nuisance for me, because you have to “spam” the
equivalent of your world file with numerous dev packages or libs if you want to
install some application from source (like I once tried with Amarok in Debian
Squeeze).
On the other hand one could of course argue that Gentoo is wasting a lot of
space because it is always installing all dev files, like /usr/include,
/lib/**/*.a and stuff. But that’s something else. :)
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Bosses are like timpani: the more hollow they are, the louder they sound.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  4:20           ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
@ 2011-12-03  4:41             ` Dale
  2011-12-13 18:58               ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-03  4:41 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Jack Byer wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
>
>> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
>> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
>> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
>> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>>
> I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more
> user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and
> compilation procedures.
>
>
>

That is how I describe Gentoo, Linux from Scratch with a package manager 
and other neat tools.  I think Gentoo is about as close to that as it 
gets.  We all know portage is getting really good and full of features 
over the past few years.  I may not agree with Zac on some recent 
default settings but he sure has pushed portage a long long ways 
forward.  If only Gentoo could wash dishes now.  File a feature request 
on b.g.o?  LOL

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
@ 2011-12-03 10:32     ` Stroller
  2011-12-03 13:13     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Stroller @ 2011-12-03 10:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user


On 2 December 2011, at 17:48, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> ...
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

IMO you need to try it for yourself. If you have an old PC or a spare hard-drive then it doesn't cost you anything to install a distro and try it for a few days.

IMO the most important thing about a distro is not it's technical pros and cons, but simply how it suits you - how you get along with it.

Having said that, you mention Ubuntu in your comment above. If you haven't used Ubuntu yet, then I suggest it for a few months first. If you have, can you tell us why you're thinking of changing?

Stroller.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
  2011-12-03 10:32     ` Stroller
@ 2011-12-03 13:13     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
  2011-12-04 13:44       ` [gentoo-user] " Harry Putnam
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Volker Armin Hemmann @ 2011-12-03 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user; +Cc: LinuxIsOne

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1035 bytes --]

>Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
>a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
>Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
>easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
>is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?


since you don't even know what linux is - go opensuse. It is much, much easier to install and setup.

Gentoo is only for you if you like tuning, configuring and if you want the system be as close as your personal ideal as possible. Which means:

reading and learning a lot
making a lot of mistakes
redoing
be prepared to pull out shell based text tools and fix the mess you created,

Go opensuse. it is much more usable for a novice.

And to answer your question:

no, gentoo is not using the same linux as ubuntu
nor does opensuse.

All distributions use some linux version and add their own patches.

With the exception of gentoo where you can easily use a completely unpatched linux kernel.

-- 
#163933

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5733 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03 13:13     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
@ 2011-12-04 13:44       ` Harry Putnam
  2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Harry Putnam @ 2011-12-04 13:44 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
debian that has been around a very long time. 

It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
happens again and again at most updates.

No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
into compiling absolutely everything.

A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
again. 






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 13:44       ` [gentoo-user] " Harry Putnam
@ 2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-04 16:07           ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-04 14:28         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-04 14:38         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2011-12-04 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1324 bytes --]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:44:32 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote:

> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

The discussions about Gentoo's imminent demise are an annual tradition.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.

If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned that
much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again. 

Is the time it takes the computer (not you) to compile updates that much
of an issue. Unless you desperately need some feature only in the new
release, you can carry on using the computer while it compiles the new
versions for you. As for reconfiguring, that has nothing to do with
whether the packages were compiled on  your computer or a distro's build
server, but configs rarely change that significantly.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Love is grand. Divorce is a few grand more.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 13:44       ` [gentoo-user] " Harry Putnam
  2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2011-12-04 14:28         ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-04 14:38         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-04 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
> myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
> for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
> debian that has been around a very long time.
>
> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

From my rudimentary gatherings while reading related blogs and
historical perspectives, there are just two or three people who have
been at the core of Gentoo for a very, very long time. Gentoo has long
been the work of many hands, but these guys have been around the block
a far more times. I don't know how well Gentoo would fare if one or
three of them were to drop off the face of the earth.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.
>
> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

I'd say "bull", but that depends *greatly* on your hardware. When I
talk about Gentoo with my friends, they admit to having tried it, but
then say it took them a long, long time to build a system on their
486.  You don't want to run Gentoo compiles on a 486. You probably
ought not to run Gentoo compiles on any x86 processor older than an
Athlon64 or Intel Core chip.

For me, an emerge -e @world takes somewhere between four and ten
hours, depending if it's the eight-core Xeon box or the quad-core
Phenom box. As others noted in the build-speed optimization thread,
it's pretty trivial to tune the system so that it doesn't impact many
(most?) normal user activities, and can go on in the background.
Otherwise, a full system rebuild isn't much more time consuming than
something like a dist-upgrade on Debian or Ubuntu.

There are factors you can tweak to go one way or the other, too. You
might use bindists for chromium, firefox, thunderbird, xulrunner,
libreoffice... That'd probably cut my Phenom system's compile time by
about a quarter. I know installing a full KDE package set would
*increase* build time on my system by about the same.

The vast majority of the time, you're not building a full package set,
but just ten or eleven packages. (if you let things slip a week or
two, like I'm apt to do)

>
> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile.

AFAIK, it can't take longer than an emerge -e @world, which I described above.

> And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.

That seems very unusual, unless by "a bit" you're talking on the order
of six months.


-- 
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 13:44       ` [gentoo-user] " Harry Putnam
  2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-04 14:28         ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-04 14:38         ` Dale
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-04 14:38 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Harry Putnam wrote:
> One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
> myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
> for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
> debian that has been around a very long time.
>
> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)
>
> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.
>
> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.
>
> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.
>

People have been claiming Gentoo is dying for years.  I seriously doubt 
that is going to happen anytime soon.

I did sort of mention the compile times.  Thing is, we don't know what 
sort of rig the OP has.  If he has a really old rig, that could result 
is some long compile times.  If it is a recently bought/built rig, then 
it may be fast enough to not matter.

It seems no matter how much info a post has, there is always something 
missing.  :/  I'm just glad I buy my tea loose.  I can read the tea 
leaves easier.  O_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2011-12-04 16:07           ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-04 16:43             ` Dale
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-04 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:55:28 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> > For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> > thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> > happens again and again at most updates.  
> 
> If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned
> that much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

I'd go so far as to say that if a user does not already have a
reasonable grasp of how Gentoo works, can't give you a one-paragraph
description of Gentoo that is reasonably accurate, and can't describe
the concepts of how an ebuild would work, then Gentoo is not the
distro for that user.

Gentoo is like fine Italian vehicles - you can get stunning
performance IF you know what you are doing, know what all the bits mean
and are prepared to invest the insane amount of time and effort it
requires (per the rule of diminishing returns). There's always a few
edge cases like James, who simply cannot find any other useful way to
build his embedded images. I suspect James looked at the landscape and
saw two choices: build his own build machinery, or use Gentoo's which
fits most of his needs most of the time.

As soon as someone asks a question like "which is better, OpenSuSE
or Gentoo?" you almost always know the answer cannot possibly be
Gentoo. That user has to play with OpenSuSE for a while to discover for
himself why this is so.

I'm going to get flamed for this, and be accused of being elitist. It
happens every time. And that's OK:

If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.

There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
guy has to become one?

I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
decision.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 16:07           ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-12-04 16:43             ` Dale
  2011-12-04 17:16               ` Alex Schuster
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-04 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:55:28 +0000
> Neil Bothwick<neil@digimed.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>>> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
>>> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
>>> happens again and again at most updates.
>> If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned
>> that much, it certainly is not the distro for them.
> I'd go so far as to say that if a user does not already have a
> reasonable grasp of how Gentoo works, can't give you a one-paragraph
> description of Gentoo that is reasonably accurate, and can't describe
> the concepts of how an ebuild would work, then Gentoo is not the
> distro for that user.
>
> Gentoo is like fine Italian vehicles - you can get stunning
> performance IF you know what you are doing, know what all the bits mean
> and are prepared to invest the insane amount of time and effort it
> requires (per the rule of diminishing returns). There's always a few
> edge cases like James, who simply cannot find any other useful way to
> build his embedded images. I suspect James looked at the landscape and
> saw two choices: build his own build machinery, or use Gentoo's which
> fits most of his needs most of the time.
>
> As soon as someone asks a question like "which is better, OpenSuSE
> or Gentoo?" you almost always know the answer cannot possibly be
> Gentoo. That user has to play with OpenSuSE for a while to discover for
> himself why this is so.
>
> I'm going to get flamed for this, and be accused of being elitist. It
> happens every time. And that's OK:

No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who 
has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking back, I was one 
heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to be fools luck that I 
got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.  
You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

>
> If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
> be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
> freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
> would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
> to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
> LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.
>
> There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
> cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
> guy has to become one?
>
> I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
> first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
> understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
> decision.
>

They can also do the install to a separate drive from within another 
distro too.  That way they can have the docs, forums and other useful 
tools available.  I know, I have heard of Knoppix too.  Just saying.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 16:43             ` Dale
@ 2011-12-04 17:16               ` Alex Schuster
  2011-12-04 17:37                 ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-04 17:38                 ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alex Schuster @ 2011-12-04 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Dale writes:

> No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who 
> has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking back, I was one 
> heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to be fools luck that I 
> got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.  
> You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro, where
things are hidden by GUI config tools.

But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

	Wonko



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 17:16               ` Alex Schuster
@ 2011-12-04 17:37                 ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-04 20:45                   ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-04 17:38                 ` Alan McKinnon
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-04 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:16:19 +0100
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> > No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to
> > someone who has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking
> > back, I was one heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to
> > be fools luck that I got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and
> > still are, really good. You can dang near copy and paste the
> > commands.  
> 
> I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
> succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
> you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

I think we all know at least one person like that. Myself, I've
trained more than just a few (the training salesperson had a knack for
signing up people who had the smarts to cope with Gentoo).

But for every one like that, there are at least 10 more that can't, and
so often in this game I find that others are just not able to spot those
10. And worse, the 10 often give up and go back to Windows.

So the question is not really "can the user do it?", it is rather "how
will *this* person in front of me right now be best served?"

An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The answers to those questions are what should guide you.

> That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
> integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro,
> where things are hidden by GUI config tools.

Precisely, which is why RedHat is great for a Windows sysadmin who
really does want a plug-n-play distro.

Debian is great for people who want to tinker safely - you get the
plug-n-play of a binary distro and you also get build tools that don't
explode in your face every time you try do something that is not
exactly 100% TheTrueRedHatWay.

> But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
> binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
> using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
> add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

Don't forget VirtualBox/VMWare/KVM/Xen and everything else like them :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 17:16               ` Alex Schuster
  2011-12-04 17:37                 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-12-04 17:38                 ` Alan McKinnon
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-04 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:16:19 +0100
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> > No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to
> > someone who has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking
> > back, I was one heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to
> > be fools luck that I got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and
> > still are, really good. You can dang near copy and paste the
> > commands.  
> 
> I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
> succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
> you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.
> 
> That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
> integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro,
> where things are hidden by GUI config tools.
> 
> But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
> binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
> using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
> add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 17:37                 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-12-04 20:45                   ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-04 22:11                     ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2011-12-04 20:45 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo, you
also volunteer to provide support.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

One of the nice things about standards is that there are so many of them.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 20:45                   ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2011-12-04 22:11                     ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-04 22:59                       ` Neil Bothwick
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-04 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:45:26 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> > An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> > question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"
> 
> The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> you also volunteer to provide support.

I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
with the way I express myself :-)

I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
thread on-topic and relevant... 


-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-04 22:11                     ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-12-04 22:59                       ` Neil Bothwick
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2011-12-04 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 862 bytes --]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2011 00:11:08 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> > person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> > you also volunteer to provide support.  
> 
> I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
> get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
> with the way I express myself :-)

No comment :P

> I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
> thread on-topic and relevant... 

Well, it is relevant, although it is not specific to Gentoo. It's the
same when you recommend that a Windows using friend tries Linux (any
flavour) - be prepared for plenty of phone calls.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What's the greatest world-wide use of cowhide? To hold cows together.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
       [not found]         ` <i4lot-7WW-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
@ 2011-12-05 16:28           ` Indi
  2011-12-05 17:10             ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Indi @ 2011-12-05 16:28 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sun, Dec 04, 2011 at 03:40:01PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> 
> > For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> > thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> > happens again and again at most updates.
> >
> > No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> > into compiling absolutely everything.
> 
> I'd say "bull", but that depends *greatly* on your hardware. When I
> talk about Gentoo with my friends, they admit to having tried it, but
> then say it took them a long, long time to build a system on their
> 486.  You don't want to run Gentoo compiles on a 486. You probably
> ought not to run Gentoo compiles on any x86 processor older than an
> Athlon64 or Intel Core chip.
>

I have gentoo on a few machines here, including a Pentium-M powered
Thinkpad (single core, 1.7GHz) and a G4 eMac (single core PPC, 1.25GHz). 
They handle it just fine, though it does take awhile to update of
course. Never the "two or three days" people love to cry about, but then
I don't use gnome or kde, so maybe it would if I did... As long as I
keep them updated weekly, it rarely takes more than four hours and often
takes as little as 60-90 minutes. I'm using fvwm these days, in case
anyone's curious. Lot of work to set up, but it does everything
extremely well once configured.

The difference in the performance with gentoo on a lower spec machine 
does make it pretty worthwhile to suffer the updates, IMO. 
In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.

YMMV of course...
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 16:28           ` [gentoo-user] " Indi
@ 2011-12-05 17:10             ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-05 17:29               ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-05 19:37               ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-05 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:

> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.

What does low-spec hardware mean?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 17:10             ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-05 17:29               ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-05 18:40                 ` Fernando Freire
  2011-12-05 19:37               ` Alan McKinnon
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-05 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
>
> What does low-spec hardware mean?

Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
versions won't)

While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.

-- 
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 17:29               ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-05 18:40                 ` Fernando Freire
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Fernando Freire @ 2011-12-05 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> What does low-spec hardware mean?
>
> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> versions won't)
>
> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
<snip>

This sounds about right, I have a Gateway netbook running a 1.6GHz
processor and integrated graphics that runs Gentoo perfectly fine
(XFCE mostly). The same netbook was rather sluggish running Ubuntu,
and even KDE under Gentoo wasn't terribly impressive. With some
reasonable CFLAGS and time to spare you can keep your compile times to
within a few hours.

-FF-



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 17:10             ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-05 17:29               ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-05 19:37               ` Alan McKinnon
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-05 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, 5 Dec 2011 12:10:52 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> 
> What does low-spec hardware mean?
 
Anything that isn't for sale in shops anymore.


-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
       [not found]               ` <i4KGf-s4-51@gated-at.bofh.it>
@ 2011-12-05 20:14                 ` Indi
  2011-12-05 20:20                   ` Michael Mol
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Indi @ 2011-12-05 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> >
> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
> 
> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> versions won't)
> 
> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
> 

Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.
Peopple pay such a high price to avoid learning anything...

But I was thinking more about anything x86 or ppc and single core, 
or stuff like intel atom. Anything ARM. Anything pre core2duo from 
intel, for sure, as well as any ppc Mac.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 20:14                 ` Indi
@ 2011-12-05 20:20                   ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-05 23:32                     ` Mick
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-05 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
>> >
>> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
>>
>> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
>> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
>> versions won't)
>>
>> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
>>
>
> Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.

That's why I gave the description I did. What seems sluggish to you
may not seem sluggish to me. It certainly won't seem sluggish to my
grandmother...

It tunes itself very nicely to the perceptions and needs of the
individual in question.

-- 
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 20:20                   ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-05 23:32                     ` Mick
  2011-12-06 10:50                       ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-06 10:54                       ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Mick @ 2011-12-05 23:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1472 bytes --]

On Monday 05 Dec 2011 20:20:38 Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> >> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> >> > 
> >> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
> >> 
> >> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> >> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> >> versions won't)
> >> 
> >> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think
> >> about it.
> > 
> > Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.
> 
> That's why I gave the description I did. What seems sluggish to you
> may not seem sluggish to me. It certainly won't seem sluggish to my
> grandmother...
> 
> It tunes itself very nicely to the perceptions and needs of the
> individual in question.

I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM 
even fluxbox was a bit sluggish!  Ha!

I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a 
Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.  
That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 23:32                     ` Mick
@ 2011-12-06 10:50                       ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-06 13:53                         ` Philip Webb
  2011-12-06 10:54                       ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-06 10:50 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM
> even fluxbox was a bit sluggish!  Ha!

;)-

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

I guess, if Gentoo is required to be learned first and that's why it
is not so popular like Ubuntu and lag far behind than it. When I asked
a stranger do you know about Computers? He says, no but I know what it
is. Then I asked him of Linux, he says, yes I heard of Ubuntu but I
don't know! At least he heard of Ubuntu and Gentoo (when asked about)
he says: Is it a country? /o\



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-05 23:32                     ` Mick
  2011-12-06 10:50                       ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-06 10:54                       ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-06 11:15                         ` Neil Bothwick
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-06 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
beginners! It is typical then....



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 10:54                       ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-06 11:15                         ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-06 22:04                           ` ny6p01
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2011-12-06 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 440 bytes --]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:

> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> beginners!

Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
"power users" distro.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray
and the blinking red light.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 10:50                       ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-06 13:53                         ` Philip Webb
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Philip Webb @ 2011-12-06 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

111206 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Then I asked him of ... Gentoo & he says: Is it a country?

No, it's a miniature penguin (smile).

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
       [not found]       ` <i50UG-2Gr-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
@ 2011-12-06 21:35         ` Indi
  2011-12-06 23:23           ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-08 17:05           ` Paul Hartman
       [not found]         ` <i51e2-3of-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Indi @ 2011-12-06 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:03PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> 
> However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
> Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> beginners! It is typical then....

> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> beginners! It is typical then....

Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
"user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
It's nice for those who don't want to study to learn how to use their
computer, but it's not going to give the best performance. Security is
also frequently impacted to some degree.
Were it otherwise, there might be fewer "geeky" distros and more "easy"
ones. :)

There's nothig wrong with using Ubuntu though - I tend to recommend
Linux Mint over Ubuntu for eginner or non-technical users.
Opensuse is just a mess everytime I try it (admittedly, more than a year has
passed so maybe it's killer now).

Good luck and enjoy your adventures in OSes. :)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
       [not found]       ` <i50UG-2Gr-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
@ 2011-12-06 21:42         ` Indi
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Indi @ 2011-12-06 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:02PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> 
> I guess, if Gentoo is required to be learned first and that's why it
> is not so popular like Ubuntu and lag far behind than it. When I asked
> a stranger do you know about Computers? He says, no but I know what it
> is. Then I asked him of Linux, he says, yes I heard of Ubuntu but I
> don't know! At least he heard of Ubuntu and Gentoo (when asked about)
> he says: Is it a country? /o\

That's ok -- we don't care much about Joe Sixpack's ignorance, and not
every software project is seeking world domination.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 11:15                         ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2011-12-06 22:04                           ` ny6p01
  2011-12-06 23:21                             ` Joshua Murphy
  2011-12-06 23:25                             ` Grant Edwards
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: ny6p01 @ 2011-12-06 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> 
> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> > beginners!
> 
> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
> "power users" distro.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray
> and the blinking red light.


And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
accolades for his efforts.

Terry




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 22:04                           ` ny6p01
@ 2011-12-06 23:21                             ` Joshua Murphy
  2011-12-06 23:25                             ` Grant Edwards
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Joshua Murphy @ 2011-12-06 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:04 PM,  <ny6p01@gmail.com> wrote:
> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
> leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
> of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
> accolades for his efforts.
>
> Terry

This doesn't get pointed out enough. I started out on Mandrake myself
and as soon as I ran into a problem, there was such a drastic learning
curve, dealing with RPMs was horrendous at the time, it just wasn't
worth it to me to dig to find what was below the pretty layer when the
pretty layer didn't cut it. Then I used Slackware, which was great for
me, did exactly what I wanted when I asked and absolutely nothing I
didn't ask for... but it wasn't until I jumped into LFS that I really
learned a great deal about *how* Linux actually works. Gentoo is the
only place I've found comparable documentation to LFS, and even when
dealing with other distros I find myself relying on Gentoo and LFS
documentation more *each* than all others combined.

-- 
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 21:35         ` Indi
@ 2011-12-06 23:23           ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-07  1:39             ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-08 17:05           ` Paul Hartman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-06 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-06, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 12:00:03PM +0100, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>
>> However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
>> Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
>> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> beginners!

Because that's the price of making it good for experienced users.  A
lot of people will try to tell you it doesn't have to be that way, but
experience always seems to prove it is that way.

> It is typical then....
>
>> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> beginners! It is typical then....
>
> Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.

And removing choice.

Ubuntu is _great_ if you want to accomplish the same things in the
same ways as the Ubuntu developers intended.  If you want to do
anything they didn't think of ahead of time (or if you just want to do
it in a different manner), it's like trying to swim up a cliff.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm using my X-RAY
                                  at               VISION to obtain a rare
                              gmail.com            glimpse of the INNER
                                                   WORKINGS of this POTATO!!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 22:04                           ` ny6p01
  2011-12-06 23:21                             ` Joshua Murphy
@ 2011-12-06 23:25                             ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-07 10:20                               ` [gentoo-user] " Stroller
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-06 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-06, ny6p01@gmail.com <ny6p01@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>> 
>> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> > beginners!
>> 
>> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
>> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
>> "power users" distro.

> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
> Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
> away the best of any distro I have tried.

Definitely.

The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.

> Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
> efforts.

The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Here I am in the
                                  at               POSTERIOR OLFACTORY LOBULE
                              gmail.com            but I don't see CARL SAGAN
                                                   anywhere!!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
       [not found]             ` <i5cM9-69c-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
@ 2011-12-07  0:15               ` Indi
  2011-12-07  9:09                 ` Håkon Alstadheim
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Indi @ 2011-12-07  0:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:40:01AM +0100, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-06, ny6p01@gmail.com <ny6p01@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >> 
> >> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> >> > beginners!
> >> 
> >> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
> >> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
> >> "power users" distro.
> 
> > And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
> > Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
> > away the best of any distro I have tried.
> 
> Definitely.
> 
> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
> 
> > Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
> > efforts.
> 
> The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.
> 

They really are. When you have great documentaion, a shell, and a keyboard 
that *is* user-friendly! ;)! 

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 23:23           ` Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-07  1:39             ` Frank Steinmetzger
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Frank Steinmetzger @ 2011-12-07  1:39 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1080 bytes --]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:23:22PM +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> >> I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> >> beginners! It is typical then....
> >
> > Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> > Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> > "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> > things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
> 
> And removing choice.
> 
> Ubuntu is _great_ if you want to accomplish the same things in the
> same ways as the Ubuntu developers intended.  If you want to do
> anything they didn't think of ahead of time (or if you just want to do
> it in a different manner), it's like trying to swim up a cliff.

That’s why you have a different Ubuntu distribution for every single medium and
major desktops. *SCNR*
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

In order for more and more people having to do even less,
less and less people have to do even more.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07  0:15               ` Indi
@ 2011-12-07  9:09                 ` Håkon Alstadheim
  2011-12-07 10:32                   ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Håkon Alstadheim @ 2011-12-07  9:09 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Den 07. des. 2011 01:15, skrev Indi:
> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 12:40:01AM +0100, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2011-12-06, ny6p01@gmail.com<ny6p01@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>>>>> beginners!
>>>> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
>>>> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
>>>> "power users" distro.
>>> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
>>> Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
>>> away the best of any distro I have tried.
>> Definitely.
>>
>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>
>>> Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
>>> efforts.
>> The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.
>>
> They really are. When you have great documentaion, a shell, and a keyboard
> that *is* user-friendly! ;)!
>

It tells you something that quite often when I google for 
"some-problem-description" and debian/ubuntu/suse/windows/whatever, 
quite often the only hits to come up are gentoo-related. On debian the 
gentoo answer is usually useful, on ubuntu ... well, 'nuff sed.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07  9:09                 ` Håkon Alstadheim
@ 2011-12-07 10:32                   ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-07 10:56                     ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-08  6:56                     ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-07 10:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:09:27 +0100
Håkon Alstadheim <hakon@alstadheim.priv.no> wrote:

> > They really are. When you have great documentaion, a shell, and a
> > keyboard that *is* user-friendly! ;)!
> >  
> 
> It tells you something that quite often when I google for 
> "some-problem-description" and debian/ubuntu/suse/windows/whatever, 
> quite often the only hits to come up are gentoo-related. On debian
> the gentoo answer is usually useful, on ubuntu ... well, 'nuff sed.

It's not just the Gentoo docs, it's this very list here too.

The fellow who sits two desks away from me reckons he's lost count of
the number of times Google finds the exact answer he's looking for in a
post to gentoo-user :-)

He has many machines, only one of them runs Gentoo. But we still are
the ones who come up with answers.


-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 10:32                   ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2011-12-07 10:56                     ` Neil Bothwick
  2011-12-08  6:56                     ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2011-12-07 10:56 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 368 bytes --]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:32:22 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> The fellow who sits two desks away from me reckons he's lost count of
> the number of times Google finds the exact answer he's looking for in a
> post to gentoo-user :-)

Wouldn't it be quicker to just ask you? ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you consult enough experts, you can confirm any opinion.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 10:20                               ` [gentoo-user] " Stroller
@ 2011-12-07 15:58                                 ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
                                                     ` (2 more replies)
  2011-12-08  6:57                                 ` [gentoo-user] " LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-07 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> ...
>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>
> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>
> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
things.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! All this time I've
                                  at               been VIEWING a RUSSIAN
                              gmail.com            MIDGET SODOMIZE a HOUSECAT!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 15:58                                 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
  2011-12-07 16:44                                     ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-08  6:56                                     ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-07 16:43                                   ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-08 14:10                                   ` James Broadhead
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-07 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back.  I asked questions 
about it on here.

One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question 
about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about 
all the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 15:58                                 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
  2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
@ 2011-12-07 16:43                                   ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-08 14:10                                   ` James Broadhead
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-07 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1255 bytes --]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:02 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> ...
> >> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> >> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
> >
> > I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
> >
> > I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
> > made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

askubuntu.com (a part of the StackExchange network) is a good place to ask
Ubuntu-related questions. Heck, the whole StackExchange sites are
wonderful. I myself frequent StackOverflow (where I answer bash questions),
ServerFault (mostly answering iptables questions), and SuperUser (where I
ask questions). My handle in StackExchange is pepoluan.

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1663 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
@ 2011-12-07 16:44                                     ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-07 19:06                                       ` Claudio Roberto França Pereira
  2011-12-08  6:56                                     ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-07 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1299 bytes --]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:12 PM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>>
>>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>>
>>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>>
>> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
>> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
>> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
>> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
>> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
>> things.
>>
>
> I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back.  I asked questions about
it on here.
>
> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question
about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all
the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.
>

I think that's because we're technophiles first, Gentooroid second. :-)

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1807 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 16:44                                     ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-07 19:06                                       ` Claudio Roberto França Pereira
  2011-12-08  6:55                                         ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Claudio Roberto França Pereira @ 2011-12-07 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Yeah, I agree.

Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then unity,
for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie user.
Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's doing, how
he's system works.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 19:06                                       ` Claudio Roberto França Pereira
@ 2011-12-08  6:55                                         ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-08 14:31                                           ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-08  6:55 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Claudio Roberto França Pereira
<spideybr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
> multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then unity,
> for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie user.
> Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's doing, how
> he's system works.

But at least the user should be know what he is going to do in the
only way possible - CLI!



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
  2011-12-07 16:44                                     ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-08  6:56                                     ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-08  6:56 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question about
> M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all the
> people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

And what response you got when did you ask in Ubuntu lists?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 10:32                   ` Alan McKinnon
  2011-12-07 10:56                     ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2011-12-08  6:56                     ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-08  6:56 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> But we still are the ones who come up with answers.

Nice to know! Cool!



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-07 15:58                                 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
  2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
  2011-12-07 16:43                                   ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-08 14:10                                   ` James Broadhead
  2011-12-08 14:25                                     ` Michael Mol
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: James Broadhead @ 2011-12-08 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 7 December 2011 15:58, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.

This actually expresses it quite well - because they dropped the
barrier to entry, they end up with a much wider audience, but one
which doesn't obsess over learning how their system operates as much
as other distros.

Additionally, Ubuntu suffers from the devs attempts to include the
newest versions of packages as stable before the majority of distros
think that they are ready[1], while trying to maintain wide 'it just
works' compatibility. They also tend towards over-engineering around
problems in linux / apt, rather than solving the root problem, or
relying on their users to adapt or deal with it themselves.[2]
Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
experience[3].

[1] Pulseaudio, KDE4 (others, I'm sure)
[2] The grub2 config process in Ubuntu is torturous, and includes
editing a file in /etc/defaults of all things.
[3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
default.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08 14:10                                   ` James Broadhead
@ 2011-12-08 14:25                                     ` Michael Mol
  2011-12-08 14:33                                       ` James Broadhead
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-08 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
> Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
> experience[3].
>
> [3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
> usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
> installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
> default.

I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, but that really didn't start with them.
*Debian* has it in a far worse way. As an example, say you're in my
position and want Squid running as a website accelerator, and you want
SSL support. Squid can do this. Except the binary packages Debian
builds have SSL disabled because of fears of incompatible licenses
between Squid and OpenSSL.


--
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08  6:55                                         ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-08 14:31                                           ` Alan McKinnon
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2011-12-08 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 01:55:20 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Claudio Roberto França Pereira
> <spideybr@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
> > multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then
> > unity, for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie
> > user. Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's
> > doing, how he's system works.
> 
> But at least the user should be know what he is going to do in the
> only way possible - CLI!
> 

That's not a workable approach in the big wide world out there.

It's simplistic taken to the point of extreme.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08 14:25                                     ` Michael Mol
@ 2011-12-08 14:33                                       ` James Broadhead
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: James Broadhead @ 2011-12-08 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 8 December 2011 14:25, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM, James Broadhead
> <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
>> Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
>> experience[3].
>>
>> [3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
>> usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
>> installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
>> default.
>
> I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, but that really didn't start with them.
> *Debian* has it in a far worse way. As an example, say you're in my
> position and want Squid running as a website accelerator, and you want
> SSL support. Squid can do this. Except the binary packages Debian
> builds have SSL disabled because of fears of incompatible licenses
> between Squid and OpenSSL.

"Especially in the past" _means_ 'back when they were closer to being
Debian'. Things have improved over the years, but it's still difficult
to get a codec-heavy mplayer in Ubuntu without building it manually
for example.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-06 21:35         ` Indi
  2011-12-06 23:23           ` Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-08 17:05           ` Paul Hartman
  2011-12-10 13:49             ` LinuxIsOne
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Paul Hartman @ 2011-12-08 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whaddayatawkinbout, gentoo is more than great, it's awesome!
> Gentoo isn't intended for beginners, and makes no claims about
> "user friendliness" of which I'm aware. Generally speaking, making
> things "user friendly" entails adding more layers of abstraction.
> It's nice for those who don't want to study to learn how to use their
> computer, but it's not going to give the best performance. Security is
> also frequently impacted to some degree.

I just want to say that I love Gentoo Linux, have used it as my
primary OS for years on multiple computers and can't stand to use
anything else. I like having total control over everything. I truly
enjoy it, the Gentoo Way just feels like "the right way" in general to
me. That is my subjective opinion.

But I also want to say that just because you're forced to do things
yourself doesn't mean that makes them inherently better-performing or
secure. :) One can just as easily screw up their CFLAGS and a have
terrible security setup, especially a beginner. This list's archives
are full of such stories...

I say install a binary distro to get your feet wet with Linux.
Understand the basic concepts of how the system works, using a shell,
editing config files, etc. Once that's not a 100% foreign experience
to you, then go and install Gentoo using the great docs, wikis,
forums, mailing lists and IRC as your guide, and we can be your
hand-holding friends along the way.

I would also suggest using a virtual machine for your first
installations. It will make it a lot less scary. You messed up
partitioning? No problem, you didn't just destroy your Windows
installation or your life-long collection of digital photos (that you
probably never got around to making a backup of).

As a newbie to Linux, comparing distros is usually equivalent to
comparing the default desktop environment, wallpaper and color scheme.
They don't know enough to care about bootloader, filesystem layout,
LVM, package manager, or whatever holy wars linux distros are having
these days. :)

A beginner can certainly follow along the Gentoo install docs, but I
think it takes a certain kind of person to tolerate it... Blindly
copy-pasting commands that they don't understand isn't necessarily
going to teach them anything. Not any more than blindly copy-pasting
example code from a programming textbook makes you a programmer...
Having at least some basic understand of the commands you're typing in
will greatly enhance the experience, in my opinion.

Good luck to the OP, whatever he chooses. Welcome to the dark side. :)



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08 13:55                                     ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-08 17:36                                       ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-08 18:15                                         ` Dale
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-08 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-08, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
><jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
>> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
>> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
>
> Really?

Yes, really.  When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
learned to ignore the user forum.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I own seven-eighths of
                                  at               all the artists in downtown
                              gmail.com            Burbank!




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08 17:36                                       ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-08 18:15                                         ` Dale
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-08 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-08, LinuxIsOne<linuxisone@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
>> <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
>>> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
>>> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
>> Really?
> Yes, really.  When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
> learned to ignore the user forum.
>

I learned to ask here.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-08 17:05           ` Paul Hartman
@ 2011-12-10 13:49             ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-10 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Paul Hartman
<paul.hartman+gentoo@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just want to say that I love Gentoo Linux, have used it as my
> primary OS for years on multiple computers and can't stand to use
> anything else. I like having total control over everything. I truly
> enjoy it, the Gentoo Way just feels like "the right way" in general to
> me. That is my subjective opinion.

> But I also want to say that just because you're forced to do things
> yourself doesn't mean that makes them inherently better-performing or
> secure. :) One can just as easily screw up their CFLAGS and a have
> terrible security setup, especially a beginner. This list's archives
> are full of such stories...

> I say install a binary distro to get your feet wet with Linux.
> Understand the basic concepts of how the system works, using a shell,
> editing config files, etc. Once that's not a 100% foreign experience
> to you, then go and install Gentoo using the great docs, wikis,
> forums, mailing lists and IRC as your guide, and we can be your
> hand-holding friends along the way.

> I would also suggest using a virtual machine for your first
> installations. It will make it a lot less scary. You messed up
> partitioning? No problem, you didn't just destroy your Windows
> installation or your life-long collection of digital photos (that you
> probably never got around to making a backup of).

> As a newbie to Linux, comparing distros is usually equivalent to
> comparing the default desktop environment, wallpaper and color scheme.
> They don't know enough to care about bootloader, filesystem layout,
> LVM, package manager, or whatever holy wars linux distros are having
> these days. :)

> A beginner can certainly follow along the Gentoo install docs, but I
> think it takes a certain kind of person to tolerate it... Blindly
> copy-pasting commands that they don't understand isn't necessarily
> going to teach them anything. Not any more than blindly copy-pasting
> example code from a programming textbook makes you a programmer...
> Having at least some basic understand of the commands you're typing in
> will greatly enhance the experience, in my opinion.

Nice suggestions.

> Good luck to the OP, whatever he chooses. Welcome to the dark side. :)

Thanks.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-10 14:32           ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-10 16:59             ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-10 17:39               ` Pandu Poluan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-10 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.

RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.

> With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
> Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.

I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
version of a kernel.

-- 
Grant






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-10 16:59             ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-10 17:39               ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-10 18:52                 ` Michael Mol
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-10 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1726 bytes --]

On Dec 11, 2011 12:02 AM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>
> > And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> > introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.
>
> RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
> drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
> are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
> them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
> RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
> close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.
>
> > With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
> > Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
>
> I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
> version of a kernel.
>

Ah, I see that I might have misconstrued myself. My bad.

Regarding drivers: usually they're no big deal, since the 'infrastructure'
portions of the kernel (e.g., SCSI disk support) are most likely have been
enabled.

For most applications, usually they don't really care what's in the kernel
since they operate at a quite high-level.

Problems might arise though if you're doing exotic things. For example: If
I built the IPset portion as 'built-in' into the kernel, I won't be able to
install xtables-addons. This is due to the package wanting to install its
own set of IPset modules.

Fortunately, such cases are few and far between in the Gentooverse. People
doing exotic things are naturally expected to Know What They Are Doing™ :-)

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2090 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-10 17:39               ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-10 18:52                 ` Michael Mol
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Michael Mol @ 2011-12-10 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2011 12:02 AM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>>
>> > And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
>> > introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.
>>
>> RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
>> drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
>> are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
>> them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
>> RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
>> close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.
>>
>> > With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
>> > Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
>>
>> I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
>> version of a kernel.
>>
>
> Ah, I see that I might have misconstrued myself. My bad.
>
> Regarding drivers: usually they're no big deal, since the 'infrastructure'
> portions of the kernel (e.g., SCSI disk support) are most likely have been
> enabled.
>
> For most applications, usually they don't really care what's in the kernel
> since they operate at a quite high-level.
>
> Problems might arise though if you're doing exotic things. For example: If I
> built the IPset portion as 'built-in' into the kernel, I won't be able to
> install xtables-addons. This is due to the package wanting to install its
> own set of IPset modules.
>
> Fortunately, such cases are few and far between in the Gentooverse. People
> doing exotic things are naturally expected to Know What They Are Doing™ :-)

Speaking from experience, the real difficulty is knowing that you're
doing something exotic. Once you find out, you generally have two
options: Follow the route most people go (such as is happening with
udev), or help fix the system so that your desired approach still
works (such as the fellow who's been working with mdev).

If you're constantly exploring, you'll very likely hit the exotic edge
cases, but then that's going to be part of learning the thing you're
exploring. Gentoo can be really great for that. Even better, in that
it's often not that hard (after a while) to help smooth those edges,
making it easier to go on exploring.
-- 
:wq



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13  1:04                   ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-13  4:52                     ` Grant Edwards
  2011-12-13  5:27                       ` Pandu Poluan
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2011-12-13  4:52 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On 2011-12-13, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> I'm sure they are. In the interview [1], Lameter said that <quote>
> NASDAQ uses a modified version of the Gentoo Linux distribution.
> </quote>
>
> "modified version"? That practically screams "ricers!" to me :-D

I didn't know there was such a thing as "unmodified" Gentoo.

I'm pretty sure each of my 4 installations is unique...

-- 
Grant






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13  4:52                     ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
@ 2011-12-13  5:27                       ` Pandu Poluan
  2011-12-13 12:22                         ` Frank Steinmetzger
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-12-13  5:27 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 582 bytes --]

On Dec 13, 2011 11:56 AM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-13, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>
> > I'm sure they are. In the interview [1], Lameter said that <quote>
> > NASDAQ uses a modified version of the Gentoo Linux distribution.
> > </quote>
> >
> > "modified version"? That practically screams "ricers!" to me :-D
>
> I didn't know there was such a thing as "unmodified" Gentoo.
>
> I'm pretty sure each of my 4 installations is unique...
>

Certainly you don't expect NASDAQ guys to openly admit they're ricers, do
you? ;-)

Rgds,

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 889 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13  5:27                       ` Pandu Poluan
@ 2011-12-13 12:22                         ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-13 12:26                           ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-13 14:34                           ` Dale
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Frank Steinmetzger @ 2011-12-13 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 977 bytes --]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:27:09PM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:

> > > I'm sure they are. In the interview [1], Lameter said that <quote>
> > > NASDAQ uses a modified version of the Gentoo Linux distribution.
> > > </quote>
> > >
> > > "modified version"? That practically screams "ricers!" to me :-D
> >
> > I didn't know there was such a thing as "unmodified" Gentoo.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure each of my 4 installations is unique...
> >
> 
> Certainly you don't expect NASDAQ guys to openly admit they're ricers, do
> you? ;-)

Nor would they wanna say they were using some stock Linux. After all, the
financial market is the most important in the world and the best on the planet
is hardly good enough for their requirements.

Ah, and look at my very fitting random sig.
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

The Computer is the logical advancement of humankind:
intelligence without morality.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13 12:22                         ` Frank Steinmetzger
@ 2011-12-13 12:26                           ` LinuxIsOne
  2011-12-13 14:34                           ` Dale
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-13 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:

> The Computer is the logical advancement of humankind:
> intelligence without morality.

+1



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13 12:22                         ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-13 12:26                           ` LinuxIsOne
@ 2011-12-13 14:34                           ` Dale
  2011-12-14  2:13                             ` Frank Steinmetzger
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2011-12-13 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> Nor would they wanna say they were using some stock Linux. After all, the
> financial market is the most important in the world and the best on the planet
> is hardly good enough for their requirements.
>
> Ah, and look at my very fitting random sig.
> -- Gruß | Greetings | Qapla' I forbid any use of my email addresses 
> with Facebook services. The Computer is the logical advancement of 
> humankind: intelligence without morality.

I added you to my list of sigs I have to watch out for.  Neil is the 
other one.  It is funny how sometimes they fit the topic of the email.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-user] Re: Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-03  4:41             ` Dale
@ 2011-12-13 18:58               ` Jack Byer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: Jack Byer @ 2011-12-13 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

Dale wrote:
>> I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more
>> user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and
>> compilation procedures.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> That is how I describe Gentoo, Linux from Scratch with a package manager
> and other neat tools.  I think Gentoo is about as close to that as it
> gets.  We all know portage is getting really good and full of features
> over the past few years.  I may not agree with Zac on some recent
> default settings but he sure has pushed portage a long long ways
> forward.  If only Gentoo could wash dishes now.  File a feature request
> on b.g.o?  LOL

I just came across a perfect example of why I started using Gentoo rather 
than LFS in the src_prepare() function of the openssh ebuilds. Look at all 
that complexity that someone else dealt with for you so that emerge Just 
Works.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-13 14:34                           ` Dale
@ 2011-12-14  2:13                             ` Frank Steinmetzger
  2011-12-14  6:47                               ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 78+ messages in thread
From: Frank Steinmetzger @ 2011-12-14  2:13 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1652 bytes --]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 08:34:22AM -0600, Dale wrote:
> Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> > Nor would they wanna say they were using some stock Linux. After all, the
> > financial market is the most important in the world and the best on the planet
> > is hardly good enough for their requirements.
> >
> > Ah, and look at my very fitting random sig.
> > -- Gruß | Greetings | Qapla' I forbid any use of my email addresses 
> > with Facebook services. The Computer is the logical advancement of 
> > humankind: intelligence without morality.
> 
> I added you to my list of sigs I have to watch out for.  Neil is the 
> other one.  It is funny how sometimes they fit the topic of the email.
> 
> Dale

I may already have nicked one or the other of his sigs. :o)

OT about that: Recently I had to switch my “storage backend” of mail sigs. Like
most others, I used fortune. But it just became impossible to keep track of all
phrases in one text file. So I recently wrote a python program with which I now
manage all my sigs in an sqlite database. Now I can filter for language, for
author (of a quote), for source (website/blog), for tags (films, science etc).

Being such a highly flexible system, Linux made this very easy. Though I barely
use custom scripts for daily tasks (yet) like many more advanced Linux users
do, it was still very easy to set up.

Imagine you wanted to do that in Windows (and then integrate your new sig in M$
Lookout). ^^
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Trees have one advantagees over people: they are also nice in big numbers.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse
  2011-12-14  2:13                             ` Frank Steinmetzger
@ 2011-12-14  6:47                               ` LinuxIsOne
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 78+ messages in thread
From: LinuxIsOne @ 2011-12-14  6:47 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-user

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:

> Being such a highly flexible system, Linux made this very easy. Though I barely
> use custom scripts for daily tasks (yet) like many more advanced Linux users
> do, it was still very easy to set up.

Yes Linux is better.

> Imagine you wanted to do that in Windows (and then integrate your new sig in M$
> Lookout). ^^

Simply impossible! But the only thing I praise M$ is that it supports
majority of the mobile phones (for data exchange) but at times it
needs troubleshooting (at least a little) if we talk of it in Linux.
Am I right?

> Trees have one advantagees over people: they are also nice in big numbers.

And trees cannot cheat also!



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 78+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2011-12-14  6:48 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 78+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2011-12-02 14:41 [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse LinuxIsOne
2011-12-02 15:00 ` Andrew Tchernoivanov
2011-12-02 17:48   ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-02 20:02     ` Dale
2011-12-03  0:53       ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-03  1:22         ` Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-03  2:17           ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-03  2:09         ` Michael Mol
2011-12-03  3:54           ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-03  4:20           ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
2011-12-03  4:41             ` Dale
2011-12-13 18:58               ` [gentoo-user] " Jack Byer
2011-12-03  4:39           ` [gentoo-user] " Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-03  4:36         ` Dale
2011-12-03 10:32     ` Stroller
2011-12-03 13:13     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2011-12-04 13:44       ` [gentoo-user] " Harry Putnam
2011-12-04 13:55         ` Neil Bothwick
2011-12-04 16:07           ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-04 16:43             ` Dale
2011-12-04 17:16               ` Alex Schuster
2011-12-04 17:37                 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-04 20:45                   ` Neil Bothwick
2011-12-04 22:11                     ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-04 22:59                       ` Neil Bothwick
2011-12-04 17:38                 ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-04 14:28         ` Michael Mol
2011-12-04 14:38         ` Dale
2011-12-02 17:50 ` [gentoo-user] " Mick
     [not found] <i3CB3-8wu-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <i3CUr-MC-35@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <i3FyW-57b-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <i3XFw-1UU-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <i4kC7-6Ay-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <i4lot-7WW-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-05 16:28           ` [gentoo-user] " Indi
2011-12-05 17:10             ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-05 17:29               ` Michael Mol
2011-12-05 18:40                 ` Fernando Freire
2011-12-05 19:37               ` Alan McKinnon
     [not found] <i4Nb3-4Q0-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <i4Nb3-4Q0-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <i4NkK-54g-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <i4QiC-1Co-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <i50UG-2Gr-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-06 21:35         ` Indi
2011-12-06 23:23           ` Grant Edwards
2011-12-07  1:39             ` Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-08 17:05           ` Paul Hartman
2011-12-10 13:49             ` LinuxIsOne
     [not found]         ` <i51e2-3of-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <i5bn4-3UE-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <i5cM9-69c-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-07  0:15               ` Indi
2011-12-07  9:09                 ` Håkon Alstadheim
2011-12-07 10:32                   ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-07 10:56                     ` Neil Bothwick
2011-12-08  6:56                     ` LinuxIsOne
     [not found]       ` <i50UG-2Gr-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-06 21:42         ` Indi
     [not found] <i4JK9-7dj-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <i4JK9-7dj-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <i4JK9-7dj-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <i4JK9-7dj-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <i4JK9-7dj-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <i4JK9-7dj-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <i4JK9-7dj-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <i4KmR-8n2-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <i4KGf-s4-51@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-05 20:14                 ` Indi
2011-12-05 20:20                   ` Michael Mol
2011-12-05 23:32                     ` Mick
2011-12-06 10:50                       ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-06 13:53                         ` Philip Webb
2011-12-06 10:54                       ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-06 11:15                         ` Neil Bothwick
2011-12-06 22:04                           ` ny6p01
2011-12-06 23:21                             ` Joshua Murphy
2011-12-06 23:25                             ` Grant Edwards
2011-12-07 10:20                               ` [gentoo-user] " Stroller
2011-12-07 15:58                                 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2011-12-07 16:09                                   ` Dale
2011-12-07 16:44                                     ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-07 19:06                                       ` Claudio Roberto França Pereira
2011-12-08  6:55                                         ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-08 14:31                                           ` Alan McKinnon
2011-12-08  6:56                                     ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-07 16:43                                   ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-08 14:10                                   ` James Broadhead
2011-12-08 14:25                                     ` Michael Mol
2011-12-08 14:33                                       ` James Broadhead
2011-12-08  6:57                                 ` [gentoo-user] " LinuxIsOne
2011-12-08 10:58                                   ` James Broadhead
2011-12-08 13:55                                     ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-08 17:36                                       ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2011-12-08 18:15                                         ` Dale
2011-12-08 15:56 ` [gentoo-user] " Michael Mol
2011-12-08 16:11   ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-08 20:09     ` Mick
2011-12-08 22:11       ` Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-10 13:46         ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-10 14:32           ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-10 16:59             ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2011-12-10 17:39               ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-10 18:52                 ` Michael Mol
     [not found] <i5aU1-2YX-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <i7nWO-76M-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <i7nWO-76M-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <i7nWO-76M-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <i7nWO-76M-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <i7nWO-76M-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <i7nWO-76M-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <i7nWO-76M-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <i7o6u-7Ag-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
2011-12-13  0:54                 ` [gentoo-user] " Indi
2011-12-13  1:04                   ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-13  4:52                     ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2011-12-13  5:27                       ` Pandu Poluan
2011-12-13 12:22                         ` Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-13 12:26                           ` LinuxIsOne
2011-12-13 14:34                           ` Dale
2011-12-14  2:13                             ` Frank Steinmetzger
2011-12-14  6:47                               ` LinuxIsOne

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox