[gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

Hello,

Does one have the experience for the following:

gentoo vs openSUSE

for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
etc..etc...

Best Regards.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Andrew Tchernoivanov]

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Hi!

I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

About DE:
 I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
little changes with networking).

Applications:
 I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
General applications like LibreOffice,
Gimp, browser works fine too.

The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
loads CPU by 90% while searching
for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
useful by using this application.

Hope this helps you.

P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 6:41 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does one have the experience for the following:
>
> gentoo vs openSUSE
>
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
>
> Best Regards.
>
>


-- 
С уважением,
Черноиванов Андрей

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

2011/12/2 Andrew Tchernoivanov:

> Hi!

Hello.

> I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
> x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
> what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

Ok well.

> About DE:
>  I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
> little changes with networking).

> Applications:
>  I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
> General applications like LibreOffice,
> Gimp, browser works fine too.

> The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
> loads CPU by 90% while searching
> for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
> useful by using this application.

Okay.

> Hope this helps you.

Yeah.

> P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.

Not a problem, that is also not a native language for me!

Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

Cheers.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Mick]

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On Friday 02 Dec 2011 14:41:29 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Does one have the experience for the following:
> 
> gentoo vs openSUSE
> 
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
> 
> Best Regards.

If you want *exactly* what OpenSUSE have included in their distro then 
OpenSUSE is for you.  Some applications and the whole system will run slower 
than Gentoo.  Invariably some applications could experience crashes and what 
not - any distro would from time to time have such problems and may not be 
distro specific anyway, but application specific.

If you want to include additional applications or versions of applications 
that OpenSUSE repos do not cater for, then you may run into dependency hell.  
At best, some apps will just not install or work as intended.  At worst you 
could break the underlying distro if you try hard enough and have to 
reinstall.

With Gentoo you have higher flexibility on what you install and portage is 
definitely thousands times better than YaST, in terms of configurabilty.  You 
will still get the odd application that is buggy, but as a rule your system 
will run lighter and faster because each binary is compiled from source with 
the CFALGS and USE flags that you have specified for your system.  On the other 
hand it will take some time and effort to keep your Gentoo up to date.

Another difference between OpenSUSE and Gentoo is that you will not need to 
reinstall Gentoo to get the latest desktop, or init system or what-ever system 
wide upgrade is next.  With OpenSUSE upgrades imply a reinstallation (unless 
YaST got cleverer since the last time I used it).  Invariably you will also 
never need to reinstall Gentoo to fix any breakages - most problems you may 
come across you will learn how to recover from with clever use of portage.

In conclusion:

If you prefer quick installation and easy/quick updates, but with limited 
choice on what gets installed and how it is configured, and the OpenSUSE suite 
of packages will meet your application needs comprehensively, then OpenSUSE is 
a well polished distro that will fit the bill.

If you value higher performance and a much higher degree of configurability, 
then Gentoo will be your choice;  but that comes at the expense of a 
protracted installation process (especially if you have not done this before) 
and some admin time on a regular basis to keep your system and applications up 
to date.

With Gentoo you will be *forced* to learn a lot to install your system and 
keep it running.  With OpenSUSE the learning curve will likely be considerably 
flatter.

It would be advisable to try them both out in LiveCDs (or even install them in 
VMs) to see which you feel more comfortable working with.  For a Gentoo based 
LiveCD you could try Sabayon:  http://www.sabayon.org/ and this may also be 
used for a quick (binary) installation of a Gentoo-like system.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for 
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from 
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is 
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo 
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers. 

"Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux, 
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you 
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the 
impression that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be 
installed by a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I 
used Mandrake for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to 
a point where Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get 
everything working still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.

The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other 
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time 
in to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to 
compile everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my 
Brother.  It is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I 
learn anything about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made 
to teach a lot about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and 
quickly without much fuss.

I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> LinuxIsOne wrote:
>>
>> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
>
> "Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux,
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the impression
that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be installed by
a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I used Mandrake
for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to a point where
Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get everything working
still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.
>
> The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time in
to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to compile
everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my Brother.  It
is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I learn anything
about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made to teach a lot
about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and quickly without much
fuss.
>
> I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol
>

Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)

But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux
distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to speak,
but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit "what's going
on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes piece of  cake.

The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance,
packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* have
a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are in env.d
and profile.d. And so on.

I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red Hat,
CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for its
logicality.

Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my
specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro
maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros allow
you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?

Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
myself.

Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency hell.
Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro maintainer re:
versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a library that's newer
than the current 'stable' version, I can just keyword the needed version
and compile away.

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >>
> >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
> novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
> why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
> Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.

A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting, because it
only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look into
your settings to correct it? Thanks.
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Experience -- specialist term for tried mistakes of older employees.

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> myself.

This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 8:25 AM, "Frank Steinmetzger" <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better
for a
> > novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's
> > why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> > don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the
same
> > Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
> A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting,
because it
> only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
> following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look
into
> your settings to correct it? Thanks.

*sighs*

Blame it on Google...

I'm typing on Android's Gmail client.

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 9:14 AM, "Michael Mol" <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of
the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile
it
> > myself.
>
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>

Ha, same with me :-)

But in my case, it's esoteric stuffs like: latest iptables, xtables-addons
(and its ipset modules), fetchmail, postgreSQL, ... and an initramfs-less
system :-)

Rgds,

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[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Jack Byer]

Michael Mol wrote:

> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
> 

I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more 
user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and 
compilation procedures.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Pandu Poluan wrote:
>
>
> Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)
>
> But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux 
> distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to 
> speak, but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit 
> "what's going on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes 
> piece of  cake.
>
> The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance, 
> packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* 
> have a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are 
> in env.d and profile.d. And so on.
>
> I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red 
> Hat, CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for 
> its logicality.
>
> Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my 
> specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro 
> maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros 
> allow you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?
>
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of 
> the box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project 
> that hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and 
> compile it myself.
>
> Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency 
> hell. Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro 
> maintainer re: versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a 
> library that's newer than the current 'stable' version, I can just 
> keyword the needed version and compile away.
>
> Rgds,
>


This is true but the OP may not really need this type of control.  Most 
people, newcomers especially, just want something that is easy and sort 
of learn a bit and see if Linux is for them.  Some people just aren't 
wanting to be geeky at all.  They want a OS that will take care of 
everything for them.  In that case, Gentoo is not going to be worth the 
effort.

Me, I have a Desktop with no real special needs.  I just wanted to be 
able to learn about Linux, not have some bunch of junk that I never ever 
intend to use installed and be able to update without standing on my 
head with my small toe up one nostril trying to jump hoops.  Mandrake 
had a horrible update process and I got tired of it quick.  If you could 
insert CD, install and not need to update anything, then you were good 
to go.  If you install and then need to update something, oooops.  Flip 
upside down and assume the position.

Gentoo does have a lot of good points, especially for me.  It is just 
not going to be easy and hand holding at first for a newcomer.  The OP 
will learn a lot and as I pointed out, it can be addicting.  Just turn 
off the quiet output setting and see what Linux is really all about.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 09:09:38PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> > myself.
> 
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

Though Gentoo was my first distro to begin with, the devel stuff in
Debian/Ubuntu is also a big nuisance for me, because you have to “spam” the
equivalent of your world file with numerous dev packages or libs if you want to
install some application from source (like I once tried with Amarok in Debian
Squeeze).
On the other hand one could of course argue that Gentoo is wasting a lot of
space because it is always installing all dev files, like /usr/include,
/lib/**/*.a and stuff. But that’s something else. :)
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Bosses are like timpani: the more hollow they are, the louder they sound.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Jack Byer wrote:
> Michael Mol wrote:
>
>> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
>> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
>> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
>> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>>
> I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more
> user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and
> compilation procedures.
>
>
>

That is how I describe Gentoo, Linux from Scratch with a package manager 
and other neat tools.  I think Gentoo is about as close to that as it 
gets.  We all know portage is getting really good and full of features 
over the past few years.  I may not agree with Zac on some recent 
default settings but he sure has pushed portage a long long ways 
forward.  If only Gentoo could wash dishes now.  File a feature request 
on b.g.o?  LOL

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Stroller]

On 2 December 2011, at 17:48, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> ...
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

IMO you need to try it for yourself. If you have an old PC or a spare hard-drive then it doesn't cost you anything to install a distro and try it for a few days.

IMO the most important thing about a distro is not it's technical pros and cons, but simply how it suits you - how you get along with it.

Having said that, you mention Ubuntu in your comment above. If you haven't used Ubuntu yet, then I suggest it for a few months first. If you have, can you tell us why you're thinking of changing?

Stroller.

Re: Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

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>Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
>a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
>Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
>easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
>is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?


since you don't even know what linux is - go opensuse. It is much, much easier to install and setup.

Gentoo is only for you if you like tuning, configuring and if you want the system be as close as your personal ideal as possible. Which means:

reading and learning a lot
making a lot of mistakes
redoing
be prepared to pull out shell based text tools and fix the mess you created,

Go opensuse. it is much more usable for a novice.

And to answer your question:

no, gentoo is not using the same linux as ubuntu
nor does opensuse.

All distributions use some linux version and add their own patches.

With the exception of gentoo where you can easily use a completely unpatched linux kernel.

-- 
#163933

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[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Harry Putnam]

One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
debian that has been around a very long time. 

It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
happens again and again at most updates.

No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
into compiling absolutely everything.

A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
again. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:44:32 -0600, Harry Putnam wrote:

> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

The discussions about Gentoo's imminent demise are an annual tradition.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.

If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned that
much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again. 

Is the time it takes the computer (not you) to compile updates that much
of an issue. Unless you desperately need some feature only in the new
release, you can carry on using the computer while it compiles the new
versions for you. As for reconfiguring, that has nothing to do with
whether the packages were compiled on  your computer or a distro's build
server, but configs rarely change that significantly.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Love is grand. Divorce is a few grand more.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
> myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
> for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
> debian that has been around a very long time.
>
> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)

From my rudimentary gatherings while reading related blogs and
historical perspectives, there are just two or three people who have
been at the core of Gentoo for a very, very long time. Gentoo has long
been the work of many hands, but these guys have been around the block
a far more times. I don't know how well Gentoo would fare if one or
three of them were to drop off the face of the earth.

> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.
>
> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.

I'd say "bull", but that depends *greatly* on your hardware. When I
talk about Gentoo with my friends, they admit to having tried it, but
then say it took them a long, long time to build a system on their
486.  You don't want to run Gentoo compiles on a 486. You probably
ought not to run Gentoo compiles on any x86 processor older than an
Athlon64 or Intel Core chip.

For me, an emerge -e @world takes somewhere between four and ten
hours, depending if it's the eight-core Xeon box or the quad-core
Phenom box. As others noted in the build-speed optimization thread,
it's pretty trivial to tune the system so that it doesn't impact many
(most?) normal user activities, and can go on in the background.
Otherwise, a full system rebuild isn't much more time consuming than
something like a dist-upgrade on Debian or Ubuntu.

There are factors you can tweak to go one way or the other, too. You
might use bindists for chromium, firefox, thunderbird, xulrunner,
libreoffice... That'd probably cut my Phenom system's compile time by
about a quarter. I know installing a full KDE package set would
*increase* build time on my system by about the same.

The vast majority of the time, you're not building a full package set,
but just ten or eleven packages. (if you let things slip a week or
two, like I'm apt to do)

>
> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile.

AFAIK, it can't take longer than an emerge -e @world, which I described above.

> And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.

That seems very unusual, unless by "a bit" you're talking on the order
of six months.


-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Harry Putnam wrote:
> One point no one has mentioned and I've wondered from time to time
> myself is whether one can expect gentoo to continue into the future
> for a long while, as compared to the likely hood of opensuse or maybe
> debian that has been around a very long time.
>
> It seemed at one time a year or so ago that gentoo's longevity was
> questionable. (Possibly my own mis-perception)
>
> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> happens again and again at most updates.
>
> No one has made clear that there is a very HUGE amount of time sunk
> into compiling absolutely everything.
>
> A single update, if one lets updating slip a bit, can literally take
> days to compile. And more days to reconfigure so that everything works
> again.
>

People have been claiming Gentoo is dying for years.  I seriously doubt 
that is going to happen anytime soon.

I did sort of mention the compile times.  Thing is, we don't know what 
sort of rig the OP has.  If he has a really old rig, that could result 
is some long compile times.  If it is a recently bought/built rig, then 
it may be fast enough to not matter.

It seems no matter how much info a post has, there is always something 
missing.  :/  I'm just glad I buy my tea loose.  I can read the tea 
leaves easier.  O_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:55:28 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> > For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
> > thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
> > happens again and again at most updates.  
> 
> If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned
> that much, it certainly is not the distro for them.

I'd go so far as to say that if a user does not already have a
reasonable grasp of how Gentoo works, can't give you a one-paragraph
description of Gentoo that is reasonably accurate, and can't describe
the concepts of how an ebuild would work, then Gentoo is not the
distro for that user.

Gentoo is like fine Italian vehicles - you can get stunning
performance IF you know what you are doing, know what all the bits mean
and are prepared to invest the insane amount of time and effort it
requires (per the rule of diminishing returns). There's always a few
edge cases like James, who simply cannot find any other useful way to
build his embedded images. I suspect James looked at the landscape and
saw two choices: build his own build machinery, or use Gentoo's which
fits most of his needs most of the time.

As soon as someone asks a question like "which is better, OpenSuSE
or Gentoo?" you almost always know the answer cannot possibly be
Gentoo. That user has to play with OpenSuSE for a while to discover for
himself why this is so.

I'm going to get flamed for this, and be accused of being elitist. It
happens every time. And that's OK:

If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.

There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
guy has to become one?

I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
decision.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:55:28 +0000
> Neil Bothwick<neil@digimed.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>>> For the OP, a few posters have mentioned that under gentoo, every
>>> thing is compiled from scratch, but it was not made clear that it
>>> happens again and again at most updates.
>> If the OP had read so  little about Gentoo that they haven't gleaned
>> that much, it certainly is not the distro for them.
> I'd go so far as to say that if a user does not already have a
> reasonable grasp of how Gentoo works, can't give you a one-paragraph
> description of Gentoo that is reasonably accurate, and can't describe
> the concepts of how an ebuild would work, then Gentoo is not the
> distro for that user.
>
> Gentoo is like fine Italian vehicles - you can get stunning
> performance IF you know what you are doing, know what all the bits mean
> and are prepared to invest the insane amount of time and effort it
> requires (per the rule of diminishing returns). There's always a few
> edge cases like James, who simply cannot find any other useful way to
> build his embedded images. I suspect James looked at the landscape and
> saw two choices: build his own build machinery, or use Gentoo's which
> fits most of his needs most of the time.
>
> As soon as someone asks a question like "which is better, OpenSuSE
> or Gentoo?" you almost always know the answer cannot possibly be
> Gentoo. That user has to play with OpenSuSE for a while to discover for
> himself why this is so.
>
> I'm going to get flamed for this, and be accused of being elitist. It
> happens every time. And that's OK:

No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who 
has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking back, I was one 
heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to be fools luck that I 
got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.  
You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

>
> If SuSE/RedHat were likened to good ready-made furniture, Debian would
> be top-grade DIY kits (they follow a formula but the user has some
> freedom to tweak what they build) and Gentoo wouldn't be furniture, it
> would be a cabinet-maker (with a concession that the user doesn't have
> to grow their own trees anymore, he can at least buy ready cut planks).
> LFS is the one that requires you to grow your own trees as well.
>
> There's a place in this world for amateur and professional
> cabinet-makers, but do we really want to recommend that the average DIY
> guy has to become one?
>
> I say suggest that the potential tinkerers cut their teeth on Debian
> first then switch to Gentoo on their own determinism when they
> understand the cost/benefit ratio themselves and can make an informed
> decision.
>

They can also do the install to a separate drive from within another 
distro too.  That way they can have the docs, forums and other useful 
tools available.  I know, I have heard of Knoppix too.  Just saying.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alex Schuster]

Dale writes:

> No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to someone who 
> has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking back, I was one 
> heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to be fools luck that I 
> got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and still are, really good.  
> You can dang near copy and paste the commands.

I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro, where
things are hidden by GUI config tools.

But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:16:19 +0100
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> > No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to
> > someone who has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking
> > back, I was one heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to
> > be fools luck that I got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and
> > still are, really good. You can dang near copy and paste the
> > commands.  
> 
> I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
> succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
> you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.

I think we all know at least one person like that. Myself, I've
trained more than just a few (the training salesperson had a knack for
signing up people who had the smarts to cope with Gentoo).

But for every one like that, there are at least 10 more that can't, and
so often in this game I find that others are just not able to spot those
10. And worse, the 10 often give up and go back to Windows.

So the question is not really "can the user do it?", it is rather "how
will *this* person in front of me right now be best served?"

An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The answers to those questions are what should guide you.

> That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
> integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro,
> where things are hidden by GUI config tools.

Precisely, which is why RedHat is great for a Windows sysadmin who
really does want a plug-n-play distro.

Debian is great for people who want to tinker safely - you get the
plug-n-play of a binary distro and you also get build tools that don't
explode in your face every time you try do something that is not
exactly 100% TheTrueRedHatWay.

> But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
> binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
> using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
> add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?

Don't forget VirtualBox/VMWare/KVM/Xen and everything else like them :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:16:19 +0100
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> > No flames from me.  I agree.  I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to
> > someone who has no, or even very little, Linux experience.  Looking
> > back, I was one heck of a noob when I installed Gentoo.  It had to
> > be fools luck that I got it done.  Then again, the docs were, and
> > still are, really good. You can dang near copy and paste the
> > commands.  
> 
> I know some people who had very few experience with Linux. But they
> succeeded in installing Gentoo. And they learnt a lot by doing so. If
> you installed Gentoo, you know Linux.
> 
> That's what I like about Gentoo. You know what you are doing, and many
> integral parts are easier to understand than with another distro,
> where things are hidden by GUI config tools.
> 
> But if you just want to have a Linux to play around with, go with a
> binary distro. You can install Gentoo later if you like, even while
> using the Linux you already have. If you have some space onthe disk to
> add other partitions. Did I mention yet that LVM is nice for this?



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"

The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo, you
also volunteer to provide support.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

One of the nice things about standards is that there are so many of them.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:45:26 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:37:27 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> > An equally good question is "does this person right now asking me a
> > question have what it takes to dive into Gentoo blindly, and swim?"
> 
> The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> you also volunteer to provide support.

I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
with the way I express myself :-)

I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
thread on-topic and relevant... 


-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 5 Dec 2011 00:11:08 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > The other question is "do I have time to keep diving in to rescue this
> > person when they get out of their depth". When you recommend Gentoo,
> > you also volunteer to provide support.  
> 
> I was going to mention something like that too. But every time I do, I
> get flamed badly for being an elitist dick. Must have something to do
> with the way I express myself :-)

No comment :P

> I reckoned this time I'd try a different tack and attempt to keep the
> thread on-topic and relevant... 

Well, it is relevant, although it is not specific to Gentoo. It's the
same when you recommend that a Windows using friend tries Linux (any
flavour) - be prepared for plenty of phone calls.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What's the greatest world-wide use of cowhide? To hold cows together.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Jack Byer]

Dale wrote:
>> I came to Gentoo from Linux From Scratch because I wanted something more
>> user friendly when it came to keeping track of package dependencies and
>> compilation procedures.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> That is how I describe Gentoo, Linux from Scratch with a package manager
> and other neat tools.  I think Gentoo is about as close to that as it
> gets.  We all know portage is getting really good and full of features
> over the past few years.  I may not agree with Zac on some recent
> default settings but he sure has pushed portage a long long ways
> forward.  If only Gentoo could wash dishes now.  File a feature request
> on b.g.o?  LOL

I just came across a perfect example of why I started using Gentoo rather 
than LFS in the src_prepare() function of the openssh ebuilds. Look at all 
that complexity that someone else dealt with for you so that emerge Just 
Works.