[gentoo-dev] RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[gentoo-dev] RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Petteri Räty]

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Currently there are some ebuilds in the tree that use ${PV} in
description which leads to results like:
     Description:         Documentation (including API Javadocs) for
Java SDK version 1.6.0

I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you should
not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be added to repoman.

Regards,
Petteri


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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org>:

> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you
> should not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be
> added to repoman.

 Is this iussue that grave, that we repoman needs to whine about it?
What is the issue with it (apart from p.g.o, eix and friends not
displaying correct information) exactly?

V-Li

-- 
http://www.gentoo.org/
http://www.faulhammer.org/
http://www.gnupg.org/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

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Christian Faulhammer wrote:
> Petteri R�ty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org>:
> 
>> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
>> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you
>> should not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be
>> added to repoman.
> 
>  Is this iussue that grave, that we repoman needs to whine about it?
> What is the issue with it (apart from p.g.o, eix and friends not
> displaying correct information) exactly?
> 
> V-Li

Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make it
impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some duplication.

Marijn


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[David Shakaryan]

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make it
> impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some duplication.

I think that this is a great idea, for the reasons which you stated. I 
certainly hope this will not be yet another situation where everyone 
agrees and no one takes any action to actually implement anything.

-- 
David Shakaryan
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Tiziano Müller]

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Petteri Räty schrieb:
> Currently there are some ebuilds in the tree that use ${PV} in
> description which leads to results like:
>      Description:         Documentation (including API Javadocs) for
> Java SDK version 1.6.0
> 
> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you should
> not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be added to repoman.

As far as I understood it, having DESCRIPTION in the ebuild itself
(rather than in metadata) means that DESCRIPTION is allowed to change
between versions, whether "automatically" by using a version-dependent
variable or "manually".

I'd therefore only add a note in the devmanual which recommends not to
use ${PV} (and ${P}, ...) in the DESCRIPTION.

Cheers,
Tiziano


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Petteri Räty]

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Marijn Schouten (hkBst) kirjoitti:
> Christian Faulhammer wrote:
>> Petteri Rýty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org>:
> 
>>> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
>>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
>>> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you
>>> should not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be
>>> added to repoman.
>>  Is this iussue that grave, that we repoman needs to whine about it?
>> What is the issue with it (apart from p.g.o, eix and friends not
>> displaying correct information) exactly?
> 
>> V-Li
> 
> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make it
> impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some duplication.
> 
> Marijn
> 
> 

<shortdescription>
</shortdescription>

sounds like something for EAPI-1

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=186454

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Petteri Räty]

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Tiziano Müller kirjoitti:
> Petteri Räty schrieb:
>> Currently there are some ebuilds in the tree that use ${PV} in
>> description which leads to results like:
>>      Description:         Documentation (including API Javadocs) for
>> Java SDK version 1.6.0
>>
>> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
>> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you should
>> not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be added to repoman.
> 
> As far as I understood it, having DESCRIPTION in the ebuild itself
> (rather than in metadata) means that DESCRIPTION is allowed to change
> between versions, whether "automatically" by using a version-dependent
> variable or "manually".
> 
> I'd therefore only add a note in the devmanual which recommends not to
> use ${PV} (and ${P}, ...) in the DESCRIPTION.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tiziano
> 

But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION atoms?

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[David Shakaryan]

Tiziano Müller wrote:
> As far as I understood it, having DESCRIPTION in the ebuild itself
> (rather than in metadata) means that DESCRIPTION is allowed to change
> between versions, whether "automatically" by using a version-dependent
> variable or "manually".

Well, from what I understand, DESCRIPTION should generally stay the same 
between different versions of the same package. While two versions of 
the same package may have some slight differences, the general purpose 
of the package should remain the same, and DESCRIPTION is after all just 
a short general description. I don't see any/enough exceptions to 
warrant all the duplication and unnecessary complexity.

-- 
David Shakaryan
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:06:40 +0300
Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
> But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION
> atoms?

Yep. Have a look at sys-devel/gcc for example. Some versions include
various extensions, and say so in DESCRIPTION.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:44:52 +0200
"Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make
> it impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some
> duplication.

Got to be careful here. In the past it's been stated that Portage won't
use XML for anything that it has to parse.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Petteri Räty]

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Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:06:40 +0300
> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION
>> atoms?
> 
> Yep. Have a look at sys-devel/gcc for example. Some versions include
> various extensions, and say so in DESCRIPTION.
> 

I did say in my original mail that there are ebuilds building dynamic
DESCRIPTION variables but the my question was that does anything make
use of their dynamic nature. I think for example eix only looks at the
latest.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Petteri Räty]

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Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:44:52 +0200
> "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make
>> it impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some
>> duplication.
> 
> Got to be careful here. In the past it's been stated that Portage won't
> use XML for anything that it has to parse.
> 

Well here we need to answer the question whether searching DESCRIPTION
strings is a core feature. I have never used emerge --searchdesc but
that might be just me.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Marijn Schouten (hkBst)]

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Petteri Räty wrote:
> Marijn Schouten (hkBst) kirjoitti:
>> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make it
>> impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some duplication.
>
> <shortdescription>
> </shortdescription>
>
> sounds like something for EAPI-1
>
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=186454

right, we can just get rid of DESCIRPTION

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:06:40 +0300
> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION
>> atoms?
> 
> Yep. Have a look at sys-devel/gcc for example. Some versions include
> various extensions, and say so in DESCRIPTION.

and put details like this in <longdescription>.

Marijn
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Robert Buchholz]

On Tuesday, 24. July 2007 14:26, Petteri Räty wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti:
> > On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:44:52 +0200
> >
> > "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would
> >> make it impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove
> >> some duplication.
> >
> > Got to be careful here. In the past it's been stated that Portage
> > won't use XML for anything that it has to parse.
>
> Well here we need to answer the question whether searching
> DESCRIPTION strings is a core feature. I have never used emerge
> --searchdesc but that might be just me.

I believe it to be a core feature. How else am I to find an rss reader 
in portage without having any preference or knowledge before 
installing? Or some random tool to convert X to Y.
Often, features are not part of the name.

Robert
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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Tiziano Müller]

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Petteri Räty schrieb:
> Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti:
>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:06:40 +0300
>> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION
>>> atoms?
>> Yep. Have a look at sys-devel/gcc for example. Some versions include
>> various extensions, and say so in DESCRIPTION.
>>
> 
> I did say in my original mail that there are ebuilds building dynamic
> DESCRIPTION variables but the my question was that does anything make
> use of their dynamic nature. I think for example eix only looks at the
> latest.

Because it spuriously assumes that only the latest one is relevant and
it therefore doesn't do any ${PV} substitution (which is correct
behavior under this assumption).



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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Tiziano Müller]

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Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:44:52 +0200
> "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would make
>> it impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some
>> duplication.
> 
> Got to be careful here. In the past it's been stated that Portage won't
> use XML for anything that it has to parse.

Well, if/when DESCRIPTION is moved to metadata, this must be changed.
Unless we change the metadata format as well (to yaml for example :-)



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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Tiziano Müller]

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Petteri Räty schrieb:
> 
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=186454

In regard to this it makes sense to add a check (but only a warning) to
repoman and document it in the devmanual.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:18:46 +0200
Tiziano Müller <dev-zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> > On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:44:52 +0200
> > "Marijn Schouten (hkBst)" <hkBst@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata. That would
> >> make it impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove
> >> some duplication.
> > 
> > Got to be careful here. In the past it's been stated that Portage
> > won't use XML for anything that it has to parse.
> 
> Well, if/when DESCRIPTION is moved to metadata, this must be changed.

The intention was to stick with things that could be parsed quickly and
easily, without relying upon slow library code. Whether that's still an
issue these days what with the Portage people who were saying that the
loudest not being around any more is up for debate...

Although, at the other end of the scale, Daniel claims that he wanted
to move all ebuild metadata into metadata.xml...

> Unless we change the metadata format as well (to yaml for example :-)

The only specification-compliant yaml parser is written in C, has
only the bottom two layers of the stack and no usable external
bindings... Perhaps you mean "something that's basically yaml except
with reserved string-start characters not handled correctly", in which
case there's Syck...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Luca Barbato]

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> Christian Faulhammer wrote:
>> Petteri Rýty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org>:
> 
>>> I did see anything in devmanual taking a stance on this issue:
>>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html
>>> What do you think about adding a sentence or two saying that you
>>> should not use version numbers in DESCRIPTION? This could even be
>>> added to repoman.
>>  Is this iussue that grave, that we repoman needs to whine about it?
>> What is the issue with it (apart from p.g.o, eix and friends not
>> displaying correct information) exactly?
> 
>> V-Li
> 
> Perhaps we should just move DESCRIPTIONs to metadata.

No

> That would make it
> impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some duplication.
> 

It isn't duplicated, description is per ebuild and could change,
metadata is for the package as whole.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Luca Barbato]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> The only specification-compliant yaml parser is written in C, has
> only the bottom two layers of the stack and no usable external
> bindings... Perhaps you mean "something that's basically yaml except
> with reserved string-start characters not handled correctly", in which
> case there's Syck...
> 

what about libyaml?

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:46:05 +0200
Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > The only specification-compliant yaml parser is written in C, has
> > only the bottom two layers of the stack and no usable external
> > bindings... Perhaps you mean "something that's basically yaml except
> > with reserved string-start characters not handled correctly", in
> > which case there's Syck...
> 
> what about libyaml?

libyaml's the compliant one, but it only supports the bottom part of the
stack. You'd still have to write the composer and constructor by hand,
which is a lot of work. It also can't read many documents generated by
Syck because it's strictly specification compliant and rejects invalid
input.

Yaml looks nicer than XML on the surface, but unfortunately it's still a
pain in the ass to handle...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Luca Barbato]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

> 
> Yaml looks nicer than XML on the surface, but unfortunately it's still a
> pain in the ass to handle...
> 

Basically because there aren't nicer libraries for languages different
than ruby python and perl... =/

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:11:35 +0200
Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Yaml looks nicer than XML on the surface, but unfortunately it's
> > still a pain in the ass to handle...
> > 
> 
> Basically because there aren't nicer libraries for languages different
> than ruby python and perl... =/

And there aren't specification-compliant Yaml libraries for Ruby,
Python or Perl. That's important. If you're using the thing that Syck
generates, you're not using Yaml.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Tiziano Müller]

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Ciaran McCreesh schrieb:
> And there aren't specification-compliant Yaml libraries for Ruby,
> Python or Perl. That's important. If you're using the thing that Syck
> generates, you're not using Yaml.

Sorry for starting this off-topic discussion. I'd suggest that we first
concentrate on what we want (moving DESCRIPTION or not), while not
forgetting this difficulty when making the decision of which format or
library to choose (which might not happen at all if we decide not to
check whether we should change the format of metadata).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 24 July 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Petteri Räty <betelgeuse@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > But is there anything that makes use of version specific DESCRIPTION
> > atoms?
>
> Yep. Have a look at sys-devel/gcc for example. Some versions include
> various extensions, and say so in DESCRIPTION.

eh, i'm not really partial to such enumeration, not that it really matters 
considering most search programs show 1 DESCRIPTION (the latest)

easy enough to expound upon in a long description
-mike

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: Forbid using versions in DESCRIPTION

[Mike Frysinger]

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On Tuesday 24 July 2007, Luca Barbato wrote:
> Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> > That would make it
> > impossible to use ${PV} and more importantly also remove some
> > duplication.
>
> It isn't duplicated, description is per ebuild and could change,
> metadata is for the package as whole.

can you point out a package where this is actually needed let alone used ?  
none of our utilities expose the DESCRIPTION on a per-ebuild basis, only 
per-package
-mike

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