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* [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
@ 2005-04-14  8:54 Paul de Vrieze
  2005-04-14  9:01 ` Andrea Barisani
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Paul de Vrieze @ 2005-04-14  8:54 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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Hi all,

It appears that recently the mailing list server has enabled reply to 
munging. From previous discussions (about 2 years ago) it was decided not 
to do this reply to munging. What I want to ask is do we want to 
reconsider this decision, or do we want the reply-to munging be disabled 
again?

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  8:54 [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging Paul de Vrieze
@ 2005-04-14  9:01 ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
  2005-04-14  9:11   ` Paul de Vrieze
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Barisani @ 2005-04-14  9:01 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:54:35AM +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> It appears that recently the mailing list server has enabled reply to 
> munging. From previous discussions (about 2 years ago) it was decided not 
> to do this reply to munging. What I want to ask is do we want to 
> reconsider this decision, or do we want the reply-to munging be disabled 
> again?

The reply-to was set in almost all mailing lists with the old server. During
the migration I kept the Reply-To for all lists, I didn't notice that
gentoo-dev wasn't using it.

I agree that reply-to munging is a bad idea and I tried removing it from
gentoo-user receiving a lot of flames because of that, see also this bug for
something related about this topic:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82887

I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal without
it.

Cheers


-- 
Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>                            .*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer                          V
                                                             (   )
GPG-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
    0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E        ^^_^^
      "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:01 ` Andrea Barisani
@ 2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
  2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14  9:16     ` Spider
  2005-04-14  9:11   ` Paul de Vrieze
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Georgi Georgiev @ 2005-04-14  9:06 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

maillog: 14/04/2005-11:01:19(+0200): Andrea Barisani types
> I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
> user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal without
> it.

Are you gonna start a poll on the forums?

-- 
()   Georgi Georgiev   () If it has syntax, it isn't user friendly.    ()
()    chutz@gg3.net    ()                                              ()
()  +81(90)2877-8845   ()                                              ()
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
@ 2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
                         ` (2 more replies)
  2005-04-14  9:16     ` Spider
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Barisani @ 2005-04-14  9:11 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 06:06:18PM +0900, Georgi Georgiev wrote:
> maillog: 14/04/2005-11:01:19(+0200): Andrea Barisani types
> > I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
> > user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal without
> > it.
> 
> Are you gonna start a poll on the forums?
>

Starting a poll on *forums* about a *ml*, no thanks :). Hope you were being
sarcastic. I'm open to suggestions other than the "remove the header and let the
flames come" option which unfortunately looks like the only one to me and
despite being "right" in many regards I fear it will cause the havoc that
we've experienced on gentoo-user.

-- 
Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>                            .*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer                          V
                                                             (   )
GPG-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
    0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E        ^^_^^
      "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:01 ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
@ 2005-04-14  9:11   ` Paul de Vrieze
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Paul de Vrieze @ 2005-04-14  9:11 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thursday 14 April 2005 11:01, Andrea Barisani wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:54:35AM +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It appears that recently the mailing list server has enabled reply to
> > munging. From previous discussions (about 2 years ago) it was decided
> > not to do this reply to munging. What I want to ask is do we want to
> > reconsider this decision, or do we want the reply-to munging be
> > disabled again?
>
> The reply-to was set in almost all mailing lists with the old server.
> During the migration I kept the Reply-To for all lists, I didn't notice
> that gentoo-dev wasn't using it.
>
> I agree that reply-to munging is a bad idea and I tried removing it
> from gentoo-user receiving a lot of flames because of that, see also
> this bug for something related about this topic:
>
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82887
>
> I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
> user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal
> without it.

It also changed for the many smaller lists like -core, -nfp, -trustees, 
(basically all). Perhaps it could be changed such that only -user has the 
munging.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
  2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
@ 2005-04-14  9:16     ` Spider
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Spider @ 2005-04-14  9:16 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 18:06 +0900, Georgi Georgiev wrote:
> maillog: 14/04/2005-11:01:19(+0200): Andrea Barisani types
> > I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
> > user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal without
> > it.
> 
> Are you gonna start a poll on the forums?
*BANG*


oops, sorry.  Lots of us don't use forums or other web-based half-uis
that do not support content delivery and control in local and orderly
fashion :)


//Spider
-- 
begin  .signature
Tortured users / Laughing in pain
See Microsoft KB Article Q265230 for more information.
end


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
@ 2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 13:49         ` Ming Zhao
  2005-04-14 12:12       ` Graham Murray
  2005-04-14 12:40       ` Ciaran McCreesh
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2005-04-14 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 11:11 +0200, Andrea Barisani wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 06:06:18PM +0900, Georgi Georgiev wrote:
> > maillog: 14/04/2005-11:01:19(+0200): Andrea Barisani types
> > > I'm prefectly happy with removing our reply-to header (and leaving
> > > user_defined one if any) if the userbase of this ml is happy to deal without
> > > it.
> > 
> > Are you gonna start a poll on the forums?
> >
> 
> Starting a poll on *forums* about a *ml*, no thanks :). Hope you were being
> sarcastic. I'm open to suggestions other than the "remove the header and let the
> flames come" option which unfortunately looks like the only one to me and
> despite being "right" in many regards I fear it will cause the havoc that
> we've experienced on gentoo-user.

I vote for removing them.  As stated in the bug, it is really annoying
to have to copy and paste the sender's address when you want to reply to
only them.  This applies to -core, too.

Personally, I think they should either be unset by the list software,
or, if possible, stripped.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2005-04-14 12:12       ` Graham Murray
  2005-04-14 12:40       ` Ciaran McCreesh
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Graham Murray @ 2005-04-14 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org> writes:

> Starting a poll on *forums* about a *ml*, no thanks :). Hope you were being
> sarcastic. I'm open to suggestions other than the "remove the header and let the
> flames come" option which unfortunately looks like the only one to me and
> despite being "right" in many regards I fear it will cause the havoc that
> we've experienced on gentoo-user.

One problem with that approach is that someone who does not like the
change is far more likely to send a 'complaint' than someone who likes
the change is to send a 'thank you'. I suspect that such flaming often
comes from a vocal minority and does not represent the views of the
majority of list members. 
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 12:12       ` Graham Murray
@ 2005-04-14 12:40       ` Ciaran McCreesh
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2005-04-14 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:11:10 +0200 Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| Starting a poll on *forums* about a *ml*, no thanks :). Hope you were
| being sarcastic. I'm open to suggestions other than the "remove the
| header and let the flames come" option which unfortunately looks like
| the only one to me and despite being "right" in many regards I fear it
| will cause the havoc that we've experienced on gentoo-user.

Ignore gentoo-user.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Fluxbox, shell tools)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2005-04-14 13:49         ` Ming Zhao
  2005-04-14 14:15           ` Stuart Longland
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ming Zhao @ 2005-04-14 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev


-- 
Ming Zhao.
E-mail: ming at gentoo dot org
key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x92914A48
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 13:49         ` Ming Zhao
@ 2005-04-14 14:15           ` Stuart Longland
  2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Stuart Longland @ 2005-04-14 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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Ming Zhao wrote:

Heh, well put ;-)  Couldn't have said it better myself. :-P

*getting back ontopic*

At the moment, I'm used to just clicking the Reply button to send to the
list... however, on most lists that I participate in, Reply-To is left
alone, so I'm normally in the habit of clicking Reply-To-All.  Seeing as
I normally have to consciously think *click Reply, not RTA*, I for one
certainly won't miss not having Reply-to-All.

If anyone's inconvenienced though, I'm sure I can dig up some procmail
recipes (and similar scripts) to remedy the situation, as we had the
same issue on the Humbug[1] mailing lists some time back.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Stuart Longland -oOo- http://stuartl.longlandclan.hopto.org |
| Atomic Linux Project     -oOo-    http://atomicl.berlios.de |
| - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
| I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on a tape somewhere |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
1. http://www.humbug.org.au

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 14:15           ` Stuart Longland
@ 2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
                                 ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2005-04-14 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 00:15 +1000, Stuart Longland wrote:
> At the moment, I'm used to just clicking the Reply button to send to the
> list... however, on most lists that I participate in, Reply-To is left
> alone, so I'm normally in the habit of clicking Reply-To-All.  Seeing as
> I normally have to consciously think *click Reply, not RTA*, I for one
> certainly won't miss not having Reply-to-All.

Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
send to the list and only to the original email's author.

It is bad enough that we have so many different mail clients that all
behave differently.  It gets a tad old deleting multiple emails that are
identical.  This is even worse, as using procmail recipes to match on
the message ID generally ends up dumping list mail in my personal
mailbox.

Why can't mailers just show a nice little Reply-to-List button when it
sees that you're reading an email from a mailing list?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
  2005-04-14 18:59                 ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
                                 ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2005-04-14 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:23:19 -0400 Chris Gianelloni
<wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that
| I sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list. 
| Off-list emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not
| want to send to the list and only to the original email's author.

Try that on any of the technical lists (any of the kernel or debian
lists, for example) and you'll get screamed at -- there you're expected
to send to the poster and Cc: the list. But then, those lists don't
require subscriptions to post.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Fluxbox, shell tools)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
  2005-04-14 17:25                 ` Drake Wyrm
                                   ` (2 more replies)
  2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
  2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
  3 siblings, 3 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Donnie Berkholz @ 2005-04-14 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 00:15 +1000, Stuart Longland wrote:
> 
>>At the moment, I'm used to just clicking the Reply button to send to the
>>list... however, on most lists that I participate in, Reply-To is left
>>alone, so I'm normally in the habit of clicking Reply-To-All.  Seeing as
>>I normally have to consciously think *click Reply, not RTA*, I for one
>>certainly won't miss not having Reply-to-All.
> 
> 
> Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
> sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
> emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
> send to the list and only to the original email's author.

Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to the
new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
@lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org, and
it never gets things figured out.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Iqn9xw0L6ebWpKk8rT2y/1o=
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--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
@ 2005-04-14 17:25                 ` Drake Wyrm
  2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
  2005-04-15  6:35                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Andrea Barisani
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Drake Wyrm @ 2005-04-14 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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At 2005-04-14T09:32:59-0700, Donnie Berkholz <spyderous@gentoo.org>
wrote:
> Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to
> the new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
> @lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
> sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org,
> and it never gets things figured out.

I noticed that. It took me a couple of double-postings before I fixed it
on my end with a procmail recipe. Pardon the strangely-wrapped line. I
figure most of you can figure it out.

      39 :0
      40 * ^list-id:.*gentoo
      41 {
      42 
      43 # fix the problem where mailing list emails
      44 # get sent to several equivalent addresses
      45 # requires GNU sed
      46 :0hf
      47 |sed -re '/^((mail-followup-|reply-)?to|from|cc|list-post): /I s/@(li
         sts|robin)\.gentoo\.org/@gentoo.org/g'
      48 
      49 INCLUDERC=$HOME/.procmail.d/gentoo-lists.procmailrc
      50 
      51 }

-- 
Batou: Hey, Major... You ever hear of "human rights"?
Kusanagi: I understand the concept, but I've never seen it in action.
  --Ghost in the Shell

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
  2005-04-14 17:25                 ` Drake Wyrm
@ 2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
  2005-04-14 19:01                   ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-15  6:02                   ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
  2005-04-15  6:35                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Andrea Barisani
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Paul de Vrieze @ 2005-04-14 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:32, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to the
> new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
> @lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
> sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org, and
> it never gets things figured out.

Which client are you using? I use kmail which works correctly.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2005-04-14 18:59                 ` Chris Gianelloni
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2005-04-14 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 16:42 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Try that on any of the technical lists (any of the kernel or debian
> lists, for example) and you'll get screamed at -- there you're expected
> to send to the poster and Cc: the list. But then, those lists don't
> require subscriptions to post.

That's totally understandable on lists that don't require you to be
subscribed.  All the Gentoo ones do, that I am aware of.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
@ 2005-04-14 19:01                   ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-15  6:02                   ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2005-04-14 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 20:11 +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:32, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> > Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to the
> > new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
> > @lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
> > sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org, and
> > it never gets things figured out.
> 
> Which client are you using? I use kmail which works correctly.

Evolution works perfectly, too, here.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
  2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
  2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
@ 2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
  2005-04-15  0:37                 ` Georgi Georgiev
  2005-04-17 18:02                 ` D. Wokan
  2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Jason Wever @ 2005-04-14 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
> sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
> emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
> send to the list and only to the original email's author.

And just how many mail clients support reply-to-list (which in and of 
itself doesn't have well defined standards and is not adhered to in any 
specific way by the myriads of mailing list software packages out there)? 
Not very many last I checked.

Best for now to deal with whether you want Reply-To to be altered or use 
Reply-To all.

Cheers,
- -- 
Jason Wever
Gentoo/Sparc Co-Team Lead
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--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
                                 ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
@ 2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
  2005-04-15  8:50                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Torsten Veller
  2005-04-15 11:32                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Chris Gianelloni
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Stuart Longland @ 2005-04-14 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 00:15 +1000, Stuart Longland wrote:
>
>>At the moment, I'm used to just clicking the Reply button to send to the
>>list... however, on most lists that I participate in, Reply-To is left
>>alone, so I'm normally in the habit of clicking Reply-To-All.  Seeing as
>>I normally have to consciously think *click Reply, not RTA*, I for one
>>certainly won't miss not having Reply-to-All.
>
>
> Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
> sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
> emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
> send to the list and only to the original email's author.

Well... someone should tell the Thunderbird people that... I'm still
hunting for the "Reply To List" button, and I've been looking for months.

Actually, some mailing list managers actually are intelligent enough to
not forward on an email if you're CC'ed.  (Mailman comes to mind)  I
agree, having messages sent in duplicate can be annoying, but its not
that hard to read one and delete the other. ;-)

Besides, normally I filter out the user's email address if I know
they're subscribed.

--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Stuart Longland -oOo- http://stuartl.longlandclan.hopto.org |
| Atomic Linux Project     -oOo-    http://atomicl.berlios.de |
| - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
| I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on a tape somewhere |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
@ 2005-04-15  0:37                 ` Georgi Georgiev
  2005-04-17 18:02                 ` D. Wokan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Georgi Georgiev @ 2005-04-15  0:37 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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maillog: 14/04/2005-14:10:34(-0600): Jason Wever types
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> > Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
> > sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
> > emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
> > send to the list and only to the original email's author.
> 
> And just how many mail clients support reply-to-list (which in and of 
> itself doesn't have well defined standards and is not adhered to in any 
> specific way by the myriads of mailing list software packages out there)? 
> Not very many last I checked.

"L" seems to work fine great in mutt. I do not have the word "gentoo"
mentioned in my muttrc, but it properly got the address from the
"List-Post" header. I also tried it on a "List-Post:<mailto:gentoo-dev@gentoo.org>"
posting (that was CCed to @lists) and it was properly addressed to
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org.

Congratulations. There is at least one properly behaving mail client.

It will be known how proper if it sets the Mail-FollowUp-To: header on
this mail.

> Best for now to deal with whether you want Reply-To to be altered or use 
> Reply-To all.

I don't really care, but out of principle -- don't touch the header is
my vote.

-- 
\    Georgi Georgiev   \  Apples have meant trouble since eden. --     \
 /    chutz@gg3.net     / MaDsen Wikholm, mwikholm@at8.abo.fi           /
\   +81(90)2877-8845   \                                               \

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev]  Re: reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
  2005-04-14 19:01                   ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2005-04-15  6:02                   ` Duncan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Duncan @ 2005-04-15  6:02 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Paul de Vrieze posted <200504142011.12080.pauldv@gentoo.org>, excerpted
below,  on Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:11:06 +0200:

> On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:32, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>> Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to the
>> new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
>> @lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
>> sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org, and
>> it never gets things figured out.
> 
> Which client are you using? I use kmail which works correctly.

kmail used to work just fine for me, too.  However, I definitely prefer
tracking lists as news, so use the gmane.org list2news gateway, now.  That
still seems to work just fine.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
  2005-04-14 17:25                 ` Drake Wyrm
  2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
@ 2005-04-15  6:35                 ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-15 19:52                   ` Donnie Berkholz
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Barisani @ 2005-04-15  6:35 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 09:32:59AM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> 
> Reply to List hasn't even worked properly for me since switching to the
> new server or whatever. It duplicates to @gentoo.org and
> @lists.gentoo.org. I'd guess this has something to do with people
> sending to @gentoo.org when the list thinks it's @lists.gentoo.org, and
> it never gets things figured out.

What MUA are you using? I guess there's something wrong with your setup,
let's look at the headers:

List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>
Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org

There's no reference to @gentoo.org and our main MX server is rewriting @gentoo.org 
to @lists.gentoo.org every time. Are you seeing @gentoo.org in those headers
in the messages you are getting?

Bye

-- 
Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>                            .*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer                          V
                                                             (   )
GPG-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
    0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E        ^^_^^
      "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* [gentoo-dev] Re: reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
@ 2005-04-15  8:50                 ` Torsten Veller
  2005-04-15 11:32                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Chris Gianelloni
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Torsten Veller @ 2005-04-15  8:50 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

* Stuart Longland <stuartl@longlandclan.hopto.org>:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> >
> >Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
> >sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
> >emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
> >send to the list and only to the original email's author.
> 
> Well... someone should tell the Thunderbird people that..

They only need to look into their bugzilla.
If *you* want it -- vote for it!

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45715
Summary: "Reply to List" button
Opened: 2000-07-17 16:36 PDT
Target Milestone: Future
Votes: 66

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233417
Summary: Reply options: Ability to reply ToSender or ToList
Opened: 2004-02-08 07:05 PDT
Votes: 0

-- 
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
  2005-04-15  8:50                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Torsten Veller
@ 2005-04-15 11:32                 ` Chris Gianelloni
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2005-04-15 11:32 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

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On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 09:20 +1000, Stuart Longland wrote:
> Actually, some mailing list managers actually are intelligent enough to
> not forward on an email if you're CC'ed.  (Mailman comes to mind)  I
> agree, having messages sent in duplicate can be annoying, but its not
> that hard to read one and delete the other. ;-)

That would explain why I don't get dupes at work... ;]

No, it isn't hard.  It just really is annoying.  The truth is that I
would rather have the duplicated messages than not be able to
"Reply-to-Sender", so I'll deal. ;]

> Besides, normally I filter out the user's email address if I know
> they're subscribed.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-15  6:35                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Andrea Barisani
@ 2005-04-15 19:52                   ` Donnie Berkholz
  2005-04-16  8:59                     ` Andrea Barisani
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Donnie Berkholz @ 2005-04-15 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andrea Barisani wrote:
| There's no reference to @gentoo.org and our main MX server is
rewriting @gentoo.org
| to @lists.gentoo.org every time. Are you seeing @gentoo.org in those
headers
| in the messages you are getting?

Something has changed recently. I'm no longer getting both.

If I go back to a post from April 2 and hit reply all, I get @gentoo.org
and @robin.gentoo.org.

Today, I only get @lists.gentoo.org.
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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-15 19:52                   ` Donnie Berkholz
@ 2005-04-16  8:59                     ` Andrea Barisani
  2005-04-16  9:09                       ` Donnie Berkholz
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Barisani @ 2005-04-16  8:59 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 12:52:33PM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Andrea Barisani wrote:
> | There's no reference to @gentoo.org and our main MX server is
> rewriting @gentoo.org
> | to @lists.gentoo.org every time. Are you seeing @gentoo.org in those
> headers
> | in the messages you are getting?
> 
> Something has changed recently. I'm no longer getting both.
> 
> If I go back to a post from April 2 and hit reply all, I get @gentoo.org
> and @robin.gentoo.org.

Well yeah that was the old configuration, everything was fixed some time ago
and I assumed that you were talking about recent messages.

Cheers


-- 
Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>                            .*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer                          V
                                                             (   )
GPG-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
    0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E        ^^_^^
      "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-16  8:59                     ` Andrea Barisani
@ 2005-04-16  9:09                       ` Donnie Berkholz
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Donnie Berkholz @ 2005-04-16  9:09 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andrea Barisani wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 12:52:33PM -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
>>Something has changed recently. I'm no longer getting both.
>>
>>If I go back to a post from April 2 and hit reply all, I get @gentoo.org
>>and @robin.gentoo.org.
> 
> 
> Well yeah that was the old configuration, everything was fixed some time ago
> and I assumed that you were talking about recent messages.

I was talking about recent messages. Our definitions of recent are just
different. =)
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--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

* Re: [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging
  2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
  2005-04-15  0:37                 ` Georgi Georgiev
@ 2005-04-17 18:02                 ` D. Wokan
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: D. Wokan @ 2005-04-17 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

Jason Wever wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
>
>> Reply-to-All is evil.  You should be using Reply-to-List.  I know that I
>> sure don't need to get the same email both on and off-list.  Off-list
>> emails should be reserved only for when you explicitly do not want to
>> send to the list and only to the original email's author.
>
>
> And just how many mail clients support reply-to-list (which in and of 
> itself doesn't have well defined standards and is not adhered to in 
> any specific way by the myriads of mailing list software packages out 
> there)? Not very many last I checked.
>
> Best for now to deal with whether you want Reply-To to be altered or 
> use Reply-To all.
>
> Cheers,
> - -- Jason Wever
> Gentoo/Sparc Co-Team Lead
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFCXs48dKvgdVioq28RAgnmAJwOTrTSJcDEZqKGaaNUNh6c+gxDoACguwu+
> 6d/wnRmEoHinnUwQ3jbEmeI=
> =vhFH
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> -- 
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Is there an extension for Thunderbird to add a reply-to-list function?  
For the record, I clicked reply instead of RTA out of habit.  I guess I 
just came to expect reply to go back to the intended audience (the list 
in this case).  Similar to (most) business users expecting replies to be 
at the top of the email instead of the bottom.

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 29+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2005-04-17 17:57 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 29+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2005-04-14  8:54 [gentoo-dev] reply-to munging Paul de Vrieze
2005-04-14  9:01 ` Andrea Barisani
2005-04-14  9:06   ` Georgi Georgiev
2005-04-14  9:11     ` Andrea Barisani
2005-04-14 11:18       ` Chris Gianelloni
2005-04-14 13:49         ` Ming Zhao
2005-04-14 14:15           ` Stuart Longland
2005-04-14 15:23             ` Chris Gianelloni
2005-04-14 15:42               ` Ciaran McCreesh
2005-04-14 18:59                 ` Chris Gianelloni
2005-04-14 16:32               ` Donnie Berkholz
2005-04-14 17:25                 ` Drake Wyrm
2005-04-14 18:11                 ` Paul de Vrieze
2005-04-14 19:01                   ` Chris Gianelloni
2005-04-15  6:02                   ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan
2005-04-15  6:35                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Andrea Barisani
2005-04-15 19:52                   ` Donnie Berkholz
2005-04-16  8:59                     ` Andrea Barisani
2005-04-16  9:09                       ` Donnie Berkholz
2005-04-14 20:10               ` Jason Wever
2005-04-15  0:37                 ` Georgi Georgiev
2005-04-17 18:02                 ` D. Wokan
2005-04-14 23:20               ` Stuart Longland
2005-04-15  8:50                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Torsten Veller
2005-04-15 11:32                 ` [gentoo-dev] " Chris Gianelloni
2005-04-14 12:12       ` Graham Murray
2005-04-14 12:40       ` Ciaran McCreesh
2005-04-14  9:16     ` Spider
2005-04-14  9:11   ` Paul de Vrieze

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