* [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
@ 2006-10-03 0:56 Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 11:55 ` Chris Gianelloni
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lionel Bouton @ 2006-10-03 0:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Here's an updated draft. I included most of your remarks and added some
notes on append-flags/filter-flags. I'll probably submit it to Ulrich
around the end of the week.
--- Draft BEGIN ---
<section>
<title>CFLAGS</title>
<body>
<p>
Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
Gentoo: let the user be in control. Being in control brings both
benefits and problems and CFLAGS tuning is not an exception.
</p>
<p>
The recent upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 for x86 and amd64 users changed the
landscape. Users that spent some time tuning their CFLAGS with gcc-3.4.6
might find out that an upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 leaves them with an unstable
system. Example of this are :
<ul>
<li>nss_ldap stopped working with <c>-ffast-math</c> (reported to break
many packages changing with the actual gcc version)</li>
<li><c>-fvisibility-inlines-hidden</c> still breaks some code</li>
<li>if you used gcc-4.0, <c>-ftree-loop-linear</c> now breaks in
gcc-4.1(at least with mesa)</li>
<li>again for gcc-4.0 users, <c>-ftree-vectorize</c> is known to be
broken in gcc-4.1 (at least for x86 and ppc, amd64 users seem to be
safe)</li>
<li><c>-fforce-addr</c> and <c>-fweb</c> break regularly on x86 with
video libraries or graphic processing apps which use hand-optimised ASM</li>
</ul>
</p>
<p>
Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the <uri
link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix'>CFLAGS matrix</uri> for
example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see <uri
link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags'>Safe CFLAGS</uri>) if recent
updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't work
properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.
</p>
<p>
Notes:
<ul>
<li>The gcc man page contains warnings for some unsafe optimization
options. You should read it carefully when you experiment with CFLAGS or
upgrade GCC on a CFLAGS-customized Gentoo.</li>
<li>Some options that are unsafe in the system-wide CFLAGS might be
added automatically in some ebuilds if the developper deems them safe
(by redefining CFLAGS or using append-flags of the flag-o-matic eclass).
For example <c>-ffast-math</c> is added by the xmame/xmess ebuilds on
most architectures even if you don't put it in your CFLAGS.</li>
<li>You might get an idea of the stability issues of a specific
optimization option by running: <c>find /usr/portage -name '*.ebuild'|
xargs grep -- '-<your-risky-optimization-option>'</c>. It takes quite
some time, but might be enlightening: look for the 'filter-flags'.</li>
</ul>
</p>
</body>
</section>
--- Draft END ---
Lionel
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 0:56 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN Lionel Bouton
@ 2006-10-03 11:55 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2006-10-03 16:11 ` Josh Saddler
2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2006-10-03 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Tue, 2006-10-03 at 02:56 +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> Here's an updated draft. I included most of your remarks and added some
> notes on append-flags/filter-flags. I'll probably submit it to Ulrich
> around the end of the week.
I surely hope you don't submit it to Ulrich if you want it to actually
ever get in the GWN. Instead, you should submit it to
gwn-feedback@gentoo.org like the GWN tells you to do.
=]
Thanks,
> --- Draft BEGIN ---
> <section>
> <title>CFLAGS</title>
> <body>
>
> <p>
> Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
> Gentoo: let the user be in control. Being in control brings both
> benefits and problems and CFLAGS tuning is not an exception.
> </p>
> <p>
> The recent upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 for x86 and amd64 users changed the
> landscape. Users that spent some time tuning their CFLAGS with gcc-3.4.6
> might find out that an upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 leaves them with an unstable
> system. Example of this are :
> <ul>
> <li>nss_ldap stopped working with <c>-ffast-math</c> (reported to break
> many packages changing with the actual gcc version)</li>
> <li><c>-fvisibility-inlines-hidden</c> still breaks some code</li>
> <li>if you used gcc-4.0, <c>-ftree-loop-linear</c> now breaks in
> gcc-4.1(at least with mesa)</li>
> <li>again for gcc-4.0 users, <c>-ftree-vectorize</c> is known to be
> broken in gcc-4.1 (at least for x86 and ppc, amd64 users seem to be
> safe)</li>
> <li><c>-fforce-addr</c> and <c>-fweb</c> break regularly on x86 with
> video libraries or graphic processing apps which use hand-optimised ASM</li>
> </ul>
> </p>
> <p>
> Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the <uri
> link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix'>CFLAGS matrix</uri> for
> example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see <uri
> link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags'>Safe CFLAGS</uri>) if recent
> updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
> adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't work
> properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.
> </p>
> <p>
> Notes:
> <ul>
> <li>The gcc man page contains warnings for some unsafe optimization
> options. You should read it carefully when you experiment with CFLAGS or
> upgrade GCC on a CFLAGS-customized Gentoo.</li>
> <li>Some options that are unsafe in the system-wide CFLAGS might be
> added automatically in some ebuilds if the developper deems them safe
> (by redefining CFLAGS or using append-flags of the flag-o-matic eclass).
> For example <c>-ffast-math</c> is added by the xmame/xmess ebuilds on
> most architectures even if you don't put it in your CFLAGS.</li>
> <li>You might get an idea of the stability issues of a specific
> optimization option by running: <c>find /usr/portage -name '*.ebuild'|
> xargs grep -- '-<your-risky-optimization-option>'</c>. It takes quite
> some time, but might be enlightening: look for the 'filter-flags'.</li>
> </ul>
> </p>
> </body>
> </section>
> --- Draft END ---
>
> Lionel
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 0:56 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 11:55 ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2006-10-03 13:15 ` Mike Frysinger
2006-10-03 22:37 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 16:11 ` Josh Saddler
2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2006-10-03 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 02:56:42 +0200 Lionel Bouton
<lionel-dev@bouton.name> wrote:
| Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
| Gentoo: let the user be in control.
What? No it isn't.
| <li>nss_ldap stopped working with <c>-ffast-math</c> (reported to
| break many packages changing with the actual gcc version)</li>
Uh, -ffast-math has never been and will never be a safe thing to stick
in CFLAGS.
| <li><c>-fvisibility-inlines-hidden</c> still breaks some code</li>
Ditto. In C++, inlining is a *guideline* that the compiler can and will
ignore as it sees fit. Only code specifically designed to use this flag
should specify it, and even then it can still lead to failures because
of the non-guaranteed nature of inlining.
| <li>if you used gcc-4.0, <c>-ftree-loop-linear</c> now breaks in
| gcc-4.1(at least with mesa)</li>
Users shouldn't be sticking that in CFLAGS anyway.
| <li>again for gcc-4.0 users, <c>-ftree-vectorize</c> is known to be
| broken in gcc-4.1 (at least for x86 and ppc, amd64 users seem to be
| safe)</li>
Or that.
| <li><c>-fforce-addr</c> and <c>-fweb</c> break regularly on x86 with
| video libraries or graphic processing apps which use hand-optimised
| ASM</li> </ul>
Or that.
| Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the <uri
| link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix'>CFLAGS matrix</uri> for
| example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see <uri
| link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags'>Safe CFLAGS</uri>) if recent
| updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
| adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't
| work properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.
Linking to that is a very bad idea. The wiki is in control of the
minority ricer fringe.
GWN shouldn't be advocating this kind of thing at all. Here's a better
paragraph:
<p>We would like to remind you that using anything beyond -O2
-fomit-frame-pointer -march/-mcpu/-mtune in CFLAGS or CXXLFAGS (and
-mieee, -mabi etc on selected archs that tell you to do this), and using
anything at all in LDFLAGS or ASFLAGS, is pointless and will lead to a
broken system. Your penis length is not proportional to the size of your
CFLAGS.</p>
--
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail : ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2006-10-03 13:15 ` Mike Frysinger
2006-10-04 8:35 ` Jan Kundrát
2006-10-03 22:37 ` Lionel Bouton
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Mike Frysinger @ 2006-10-03 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Tuesday 03 October 2006 08:26, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Your penis length is not proportional to the size of your CFLAGS.
i could update vpenis.sh so that this statement is incorrect ...
-mike
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 0:56 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 11:55 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
@ 2006-10-03 16:11 ` Josh Saddler
2006-10-03 17:16 ` Lionel Bouton
2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Josh Saddler @ 2006-10-03 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Lionel Bouton wrote:
> Here's an updated draft. I included most of your remarks and added some
> notes on append-flags/filter-flags. I'll probably submit it to Ulrich
> around the end of the week.
>
> --- Draft BEGIN ---
> <section>
> <title>CFLAGS</title>
> <body>
>
> <p>
> Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
> Gentoo: let the user be in control. Being in control brings both
> benefits and problems and CFLAGS tuning is not an exception.
> </p>
> <p>
> The recent upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 for x86 and amd64 users changed the
> landscape. Users that spent some time tuning their CFLAGS with gcc-3.4.6
> might find out that an upgrade to gcc-4.1.1 leaves them with an unstable
> system. Example of this are :
> <ul>
> <li>nss_ldap stopped working with <c>-ffast-math</c> (reported to break
> many packages changing with the actual gcc version)</li>
> <li><c>-fvisibility-inlines-hidden</c> still breaks some code</li>
> <li>if you used gcc-4.0, <c>-ftree-loop-linear</c> now breaks in
> gcc-4.1(at least with mesa)</li>
> <li>again for gcc-4.0 users, <c>-ftree-vectorize</c> is known to be
> broken in gcc-4.1 (at least for x86 and ppc, amd64 users seem to be
> safe)</li>
> <li><c>-fforce-addr</c> and <c>-fweb</c> break regularly on x86 with
> video libraries or graphic processing apps which use hand-optimised ASM</li>
> </ul>
> </p>
> <p>
> Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the <uri
> link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix'>CFLAGS matrix</uri> for
> example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see <uri
> link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags'>Safe CFLAGS</uri>) if recent
> updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
> adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't work
> properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.
> </p>
> <p>
> Notes:
> <ul>
> <li>The gcc man page contains warnings for some unsafe optimization
> options. You should read it carefully when you experiment with CFLAGS or
> upgrade GCC on a CFLAGS-customized Gentoo.</li>
> <li>Some options that are unsafe in the system-wide CFLAGS might be
> added automatically in some ebuilds if the developper deems them safe
> (by redefining CFLAGS or using append-flags of the flag-o-matic eclass).
> For example <c>-ffast-math</c> is added by the xmame/xmess ebuilds on
> most architectures even if you don't put it in your CFLAGS.</li>
> <li>You might get an idea of the stability issues of a specific
> optimization option by running: <c>find /usr/portage -name '*.ebuild'|
> xargs grep -- '-<your-risky-optimization-option>'</c>. It takes quite
> some time, but might be enlightening: look for the 'filter-flags'.</li>
> </ul>
> </p>
> </body>
> </section>
> --- Draft END ---
>
> Lionel
Uh, Gentoo-wiki does not get linked. Period. Not in official Gentoo stuff -- the
wiki is not supported or endorsed by the developers. It's not remotely official,
and in fact contains a great deal of false and/or misleading information, which
is why you don't see it mentioned in any documentation (for example).
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EN1gr+9l5s065I46PRB59U8=
=dfSI
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--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 16:11 ` Josh Saddler
@ 2006-10-03 17:16 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lionel Bouton @ 2006-10-03 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Josh Saddler wrote the following on 03.10.2006 18:11 :
> (...)
> > Lionel
> Uh, Gentoo-wiki does not get linked.
Are there many trying to link to the Gentoo Wiki in official
documentation? It seems guns are warm and devs quick to jump to
conclusions (re-read the title and the previous discussion on this very
subject) :-) Keep cool, I agree with your statement (for numerous
reasons), it's just out of context: I propose a 'reminder' chapter for
the GWN, that's all.
Lionel.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:16 ` Lionel Bouton
@ 2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Ostrow @ 2006-10-03 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Tue, 2006-10-03 at 19:16 +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> Josh Saddler wrote the following on 03.10.2006 18:11 :
> > (...)
> > > Lionel
> > Uh, Gentoo-wiki does not get linked.
>
> Are there many trying to link to the Gentoo Wiki in official
> documentation? It seems guns are warm and devs quick to jump to
> conclusions (re-read the title and the previous discussion on this very
> subject) :-) Keep cool, I agree with your statement (for numerous
> reasons), it's just out of context: I propose a 'reminder' chapter for
> the GWN, that's all.
Ok...lets try this...
Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
namespace...
It is inherently unreliable and outside of Gentoo's control. It will eat
your dog, kill your cat, club baby seals and make the hole in the O-Zone
layer bigger...
--Dan
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
@ 2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
2006-10-03 17:56 ` Stephen P. Becker
2006-10-03 17:49 ` Lionel Bouton
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Charlie @ 2006-10-03 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
On 03/10/06, Daniel Ostrow <dostrow@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
> namespace...
http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/app-emulation/xen/xen-3.0.2.ebuild?rev=1.6
See pkg_postinst :P
--
Charlie
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
@ 2006-10-03 17:49 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 20:46 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 18:08 ` Simon Stelling
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lionel Bouton @ 2006-10-03 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Daniel Ostrow wrote the following on 03.10.2006 19:22 :
>
> Ok...lets try this...
>
> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
> namespace...
>
>
It seemed to me that although it is hosted in the www.gentoo.org space
the GWN isn't official Gentoo stuff.
Plus : http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060424-newsletter.xml
I can understand the problem with linking to the Wiki but I believe this
source of information is not too bad, considered what google returns for
gentoo cflags.
> It is inherently unreliable and outside of Gentoo's control. It will eat
> your dog, kill your cat, club baby seals and make the hole in the O-Zone
> layer bigger...
>
I can add a reminder that this is unofficial stuff if it's important to
devs, but as stated above I believed content in the GWN should be
approved by the GWN people not devs (I remember there were discussions
of making GWN official, but I believe it isn't yet). Feel free to sched
more light on this for me.
Lionel.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
@ 2006-10-03 17:56 ` Stephen P. Becker
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Stephen P. Becker @ 2006-10-03 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Charlie wrote:
> On 03/10/06, Daniel Ostrow <dostrow@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
>> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
>> namespace...
>
> http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/app-emulation/xen/xen-3.0.2.ebuild?rev=1.6
>
> See pkg_postinst :P
>
That's a QA bug that needs to be filed...
-Steve
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
2006-10-03 17:49 ` Lionel Bouton
@ 2006-10-03 18:08 ` Simon Stelling
2006-10-04 0:31 ` [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
4 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Simon Stelling @ 2006-10-03 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Daniel Ostrow wrote:
> It is inherently unreliable and outside of Gentoo's control.
Sorry, I really tried hard, but I just couldn't anymore... Must... say...
_ _ _ _ _ ____ ____ _ ____ _____
/ \ | | | | | | | | _ \ | __ ) / \ / ___|| ____|
/ _ \ | | | | | | | | |_) | | _ \ / _ \ \___ \| _|
/ ___ \| |___| |___ | |_| | _ < | |_) / ___ \ ___) | |___
/_/ \_\_____|_____| \___/|_| \_\ |____/_/ \_\____/|_____|
_ ____ _____ ____ _____ _ ___ _ _ ____ _____ ___
/ \ | _ \| ____| | __ )| ____| | / _ \| \ | |/ ___| |_ _/ _ \
/ _ \ | |_) | _| | _ \| _| | | | | | | \| | | _ | || | | |
/ ___ \| _ <| |___ | |_) | |___| |__| |_| | |\ | |_| | | || |_| |
/_/ \_\_| \_\_____| |____/|_____|_____\___/|_| \_|\____| |_| \___/
_ _ ____
| | | / ___|
| | | \___ \
| |_| |___) |
\___/|____/
--
Kind Regards,
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 developer
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 17:49 ` Lionel Bouton
@ 2006-10-03 20:46 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 22:14 ` Lionel Bouton
0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2006-10-03 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Tue, 2006-10-03 at 19:49 +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
> It seemed to me that although it is hosted in the www.gentoo.org space
> the GWN isn't official Gentoo stuff.
The GWN is staffed entirely by developers. We have non-developer
writers, but the staffers are all developers.
To be honest, rather than providing links to an external resource that
may or may not be correct, and may be changed at any time by anyone, I
would much prefer to duplicate the information in the GWN itself.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 20:46 ` Chris Gianelloni
@ 2006-10-03 22:14 ` Lionel Bouton
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lionel Bouton @ 2006-10-03 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Chris Gianelloni wrote the following on 03.10.2006 22:46 :
> On Tue, 2006-10-03 at 19:49 +0200, Lionel Bouton wrote:
>
>> It seemed to me that although it is hosted in the www.gentoo.org space
>> the GWN isn't official Gentoo stuff.
>>
>
> The GWN is staffed entirely by developers. We have non-developer
> writers, but the staffers are all developers.
>
> To be honest, rather than providing links to an external resource that
> may or may not be correct, and may be changed at any time by anyone, I
> would much prefer to duplicate the information in the GWN itself.
>
Thats fine with me. It may be a bit too long as is so I'll update my
draft trying to make things short and let you point out errors in the
result (this was the main idea of bringing the draft on this list: use
the devs' experience to bring new content and filter out errors).
Thanks for the heads up.
Lionel
PS: I was worried that GuideXML might be a little unreadable, but
apparently everyone here has an xsltproc ready to run in their brain :-)
so I'll go on with it.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2006-10-03 13:15 ` Mike Frysinger
@ 2006-10-03 22:37 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-04 12:25 ` Paul de Vrieze
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lionel Bouton @ 2006-10-03 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Ciaran McCreesh wrote the following on 03.10.2006 14:26 :
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 02:56:42 +0200 Lionel Bouton
> <lionel-dev@bouton.name> wrote:
> | Being able to tune the CFLAGS is part of one of the core principles of
> | Gentoo: let the user be in control.
>
> What? No it isn't.
>
Maybe it depends on what you mean by 'in control'. What I mean is that
you have a good stable base from which to work on, but nothing prevents
you to tweak things like you want: Gentoo doesn't get in your way.
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml mentions "Extreme
Configurabiliy" and the main picture states "Larry the Cow was in
control. And he liked it.".
> | <li>nss_ldap stopped working with <c>-ffast-math</c> (reported to
> | break many packages changing with the actual gcc version)</li>
>
> Uh, -ffast-math has never been and will never be a safe thing to stick
> in CFLAGS.
>
I agree (how could I say otherwise after spending several days with a
hole in my foot finally finding that I had a gun named fast-math in my
hand :-) ).
Apparently many developpers think that it might be in CFLAGS though (see
the amount of 'filter-flags -ffast-math' in ebuilds) so a reminder might
not be wasted for some users.
>
> | Users with unsupported CFLAGS (see the <uri
> | link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/CFLAGS_matrix'>CFLAGS matrix</uri> for
> | example) might want to return to safe CFLAGS (see <uri
> | link='http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags'>Safe CFLAGS</uri>) if recent
> | updates caused them stability problems. On the other hand, more
> | adventurous users might want to experiment with CFLAGS that didn't
> | work properly with gcc-3.4.6... As always, the user is in control.
>
> Linking to that is a very bad idea. The wiki is in control of the
> minority ricer fringe.
>
>
Ok. Anyway I'm now convinced that a dev-proofed version of its content
in the GWN would be far better.
> GWN shouldn't be advocating this kind of thing at all. Here's a better
> paragraph:
>
> <p>We would like to remind you that using anything beyond -O2
> -fomit-frame-pointer -march/-mcpu/-mtune in CFLAGS or CXXLFAGS (and
> -mieee, -mabi etc on selected archs that tell you to do this), and using
> anything at all in LDFLAGS or ASFLAGS, is pointless and will lead to a
> broken system. Your penis length is not proportional to the size of your
> CFLAGS.</p>
>
>
Hum, I'll leave out the last sentence or rephrase it... I'd prefer to be
more soft-spoken: pointless might be a little too much too. Let's say
that the cost-risk/benefit ratio is not worth it for the vast majority
of users. CFLAGS tuning should probably only be used by people with very
specific needs (gcc devs/testers, HPTC people with extensive
knowledge/experience of the problems involved). For LDFLAGS and ASFLAGS
I'll take your word for it (I never even tried modifying them myself).
Lionel.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2006-10-03 18:08 ` Simon Stelling
@ 2006-10-04 0:31 ` Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 8:19 ` Sven Vermeulen
2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
4 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Ross @ 2006-10-04 0:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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Daniel Ostrow wrote:
> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
> namespace...
Really?
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060424-newsletter.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/devguide.xml#doc_chap3
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=6#doc_chap2
(Yes, it's only a draft, but it still meets your criteria)
Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with linking to Gentoo-wiki - I
just think it's important to point out that your statement is incorrect.
Cheers
Andrew
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2006-10-04 0:31 ` [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org Andrew Ross
@ 2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 2:52 ` Josh Saddler
2006-10-04 13:58 ` Chris Gianelloni
4 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Ross @ 2006-10-04 0:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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Daniel Ostrow wrote:
> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
> namespace...
Really?
http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060424-newsletter.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/devguide.xml#doc_chap3
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=6#doc_chap2
(Yes, it's only a draft, but it still meets your criteria)
Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with linking to Gentoo-wiki - I
just think it's important to point out that your statement is incorrect.
Cheers
Andrew
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
@ 2006-10-04 2:52 ` Josh Saddler
2006-10-04 3:36 ` Donnie Berkholz
2006-10-04 13:58 ` Chris Gianelloni
1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Josh Saddler @ 2006-10-04 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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Andrew Ross wrote:
> Daniel Ostrow wrote:
>
>> Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
>> Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
>> namespace...
>
> Really?
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060424-newsletter.xml
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/devguide.xml#doc_chap3
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=6#doc_chap2
> (Yes, it's only a draft, but it still meets your criteria)
>
> Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with linking to Gentoo-wiki - I
> just think it's important to point out that your statement is incorrect.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrew
>
That draft is invalid -- it was an old project by SwifT; he was doing a trial
rewrite of the entire handbook quite some time ago just to make it more generic,
less Gentoo-centric.
So it's no good; mentioning that draft is a red herring.
And /proj/en/ is up to the individual projects; /proj/ docs have nothing to do
with /doc/, which is where the primary official Gentoo documents reside.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-04 2:52 ` Josh Saddler
@ 2006-10-04 3:36 ` Donnie Berkholz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Donnie Berkholz @ 2006-10-04 3:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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Josh Saddler wrote:
> And /proj/en/ is up to the individual projects; /proj/ docs have nothing to do
> with /doc/, which is where the primary official Gentoo documents reside.
>> Daniel Ostrow wrote:
>>> or anything else within the www.gentoo.org namespace...
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-04 0:31 ` [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org Andrew Ross
@ 2006-10-04 8:19 ` Sven Vermeulen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Sven Vermeulen @ 2006-10-04 8:19 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
Andrew Ross said:
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=6#doc_chap2
> (Yes, it's only a draft, but it still meets your criteria)
It is in a section describing where to find information, more particularly
about "Massive collaboration guides" and states "There is an unofficial
Gentoo Wiki filled with guides written by several hundreds of users."
I'm sure this can't be wrong...
Wkr,
Sven Vermeulen
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 13:15 ` Mike Frysinger
@ 2006-10-04 8:35 ` Jan Kundrát
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Jan Kundrát @ 2006-10-04 8:35 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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Mike Frysinger wrote:
> i could update vpenis.sh so that this statement is incorrect ...
Please go for it :)
-jkt
--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN
2006-10-03 22:37 ` Lionel Bouton
@ 2006-10-04 12:25 ` Paul de Vrieze
0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Paul de Vrieze @ 2006-10-04 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
>
> Maybe it depends on what you mean by 'in control'. What I mean is that
> you have a good stable base from which to work on, but nothing prevents
> you to tweak things like you want: Gentoo doesn't get in your way.
> http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml mentions "Extreme
> Configurabiliy" and the main picture states "Larry the Cow was in
> control. And he liked it.".
>
It certainly is, but if you do something against the developers advice
there is a simple rule: If it breaks you get to keep the pieces.
>
> I agree (how could I say otherwise after spending several days with a
> hole in my foot finally finding that I had a gun named fast-math in my
> hand :-) ).
> Apparently many developpers think that it might be in CFLAGS though (see
> the amount of 'filter-flags -ffast-math' in ebuilds) so a reminder might
> not be wasted for some users.
Those ebuilds should be changed to die instead of filtering. -ffast-math
is just stupid to enable globally.
Paul
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org
2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 2:52 ` Josh Saddler
@ 2006-10-04 13:58 ` Chris Gianelloni
1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Chris Gianelloni @ 2006-10-04 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-dev
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On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:32 +1000, Andrew Ross wrote:
> Daniel Ostrow wrote:
>
> > Gentoo-wiki does not now nor will it ever get linked to from official
> > Gentoo media, documentation, or anything else within the www.gentoo.org
> > namespace...
>
> Really?
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060424-newsletter.xml
Umm... it's in the "Gentoo in the press" section, which pretty much
guarantees that it isn't something "official" from us.
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/devguide.xml#doc_chap3
It is listed as one of three resources, with the GWN being listed first.
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/draft/complete/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=6#doc_chap2
> (Yes, it's only a draft, but it still meets your criteria)
At this point, I think you're grasping at straws.
You point to a place that is specifically designed to mention online
collaboration locations such as Gentoo-wiki, and then point out that it
mentions Gentoo-wiki.
> Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with linking to Gentoo-wiki - I
> just think it's important to point out that your statement is incorrect.
Let me simplify what was said before to make it perfectly clear so we
can quit with this pointless "discussion". We do not put any form of
official documentation on Gentoo-wiki. It is not a Gentoo resource,
never has been, and likely, never will be. Pointing out that the wiki
just *happens* to also include some information about Gentoo isn't quite
the same as telling someone "go here for the definitive answer to your
question." Official documentation belongs on our infrastructure.
--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-10-04 14:03 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2006-10-03 0:56 [gentoo-dev] [RFC] CFLAGS paragraph for the GWN Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 11:55 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 12:26 ` Ciaran McCreesh
2006-10-03 13:15 ` Mike Frysinger
2006-10-04 8:35 ` Jan Kundrát
2006-10-03 22:37 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-04 12:25 ` Paul de Vrieze
2006-10-03 16:11 ` Josh Saddler
2006-10-03 17:16 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 17:22 ` Daniel Ostrow
2006-10-03 17:47 ` Charlie
2006-10-03 17:56 ` Stephen P. Becker
2006-10-03 17:49 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 20:46 ` Chris Gianelloni
2006-10-03 22:14 ` Lionel Bouton
2006-10-03 18:08 ` Simon Stelling
2006-10-04 0:31 ` [gentoo-dev] Linking to Gentoo-wiki from www.gentoo.org Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 8:19 ` Sven Vermeulen
2006-10-04 0:32 ` Andrew Ross
2006-10-04 2:52 ` Josh Saddler
2006-10-04 3:36 ` Donnie Berkholz
2006-10-04 13:58 ` Chris Gianelloni
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