Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Steve B]

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WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage
1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't
muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I
might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the "Gentoo is
dead" comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with
this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community!


 On 11/20/05, A. Khattri <ajai@bway.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> > I will admit that I have a big concern about an upcoming MySQL update
> > that is probably going to break my whole TV network here. Due to my
> > fear I haven't upgraded MySQL and will likely come back ranting myself
> > sometime in December when I'm probably forced to do it. We'll see...
>
> I have upgraded MySQL on several servers (two in production) without any
> problems whatsoever...
>
>
> --
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Matthias Langer]

On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 21:33 +0900, Steve B wrote:
> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box.  I have always did a
> stage 1 install.  i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3
> u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not.  If I'm forced to use
> canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never
> listened to the "Gentoo is dead" comments.. but now who knows.. this
> is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of
> it certianly not the Gentoo Community!
> 

I think you haven't really read the discussions about this topic. As
long as you don't edit bootstrap.sh,

stage3->emerge sync->adapt make.conf, package.* files etc.->emerge -e
world

will just have the same effect as a stage1 install but 

- faster
- with fewer pitfalls

Regards, 
Matthias


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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Matthias Langer]

On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 13:57 +0100, Matthias Langer wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 21:33 +0900, Steve B wrote:
> > WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box.  I have always did a
> > stage 1 install.  i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3
> > u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not.  

The only flag you should not change after a stage 3 install is CHOST. If
you downloaded the right stage3 tarball there is no reason to do so
unless you are cross-compiling. Note that stage1 is still available, but
no longer supported by the handbook, as there is allmost no reason, even
for an experienced gentoo-er not to use stage3.

> If I'm forced to use
> > canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never
> > listened to the "Gentoo is dead" comments.. but now who knows.. this
> > is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of
> > it certianly not the Gentoo Community!
> > 
> 
> I think you haven't really read the discussions about this topic. As
> long as you don't edit bootstrap.sh,
> 
> stage3->emerge sync->adapt make.conf, package.* files etc.->emerge -e
> world
> 
> will just have the same effect as a stage1 install but 
> 
> - faster
> - with fewer pitfalls
> 
> Regards, 
> Matthias
> 


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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:33:01 +0900, Steve B wrote:

> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a
> stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u
> couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned
> binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to
> the "Gentoo is dead" comments.. but now who knows.. this is just
> crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? from the sounds of it
> certianly not the Gentoo Community!

If you'd stayed with the original thread instead of hijacking one about
MySQL, you'd know that your impression was wrong. You can change
everything after a stage 3 install, although you have to be careful when
changing CHOST.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Keep your words soft and sweet in case you have to eat them.

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote:
> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage
> 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't
> muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced to use canned binaries I
> might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've never listened to the "Gentoo is
> dead" comments.. but now who knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with
> this stupid idea? from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community!
>

well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the 
stage1 instructions.

And gentoo needs more idiots, right?

Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, 
too.
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Holly Bostick]

Hemmann, Volker Armin schreef:
> On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote:
> 
>> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did
>>  a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a 
>> stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced
>>  to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've
>>  never listened to the "Gentoo is dead" comments.. but now who 
>> knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea? 
>> from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community!
>> 
> 
> 
> well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow
>  the stage1 instructions.
> 
> And gentoo needs more idiots, right?
> 
> Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has 
> weakend now, too.

 I don't actually agree... the impression I'm getting is that Gentoo has
now matured/evolved into a state where filters are no longer necessary
(or as necessary as previously).

Before now, the Gentoo install was rather fragmented, because all the
tools necessary to install Gentoo did not all work, or did not all work
as well as they needed to, or did not all work as well as they needed to
in combination with each other. In practical market terms, you wouldn't
want just everybody installing it-- in order to ensure a good and
successful experience for the largest number of people, you would not
want to encourage those who were untrained or refused training, since
the state of the backend required training for successful use. Those who
were turned off by the amount or complexity of the documentation (and/or
the length of time the install entailed) would tend naturally to fall away.

But once Gentoo is actually installed, it's just as easy to use as
anything else. Maybe you have to learn "emerge -whatever" instead of
"apt-get whatever", but one is not particularly "harder" than the other.
It was always the install that was hard, not the usage.

The evolution/maturation of Gentoo and its associated tools means that
in order to install Gentoo you no longer have to carefully pick your way
across a minefield (stage 1), but can with confidence stride across a
beautiful grassy plain (stage 3). If you then want to turn around and
"customize" that field-- plant some flowers, for example-- you can do
that (emerge -e world), or you don't have to. But the point is that if
you want to interrupt your journey to whatever was on the other side of
that field (use your PC for whatever you planned to do with the system,
instead of suffering to install the system in the first place) you now
have a choice about whether to do that or not. You are not essentially
forced to do so by the fact that the minefield was not clear and passage
to the other side was not easy or safe and required a great deal of
attention.

Unbelievable that people are complaining about an improvement in
ease-of-use (or in this case, installation). I'd also wonder why Steve
B. is installing (again) anyway; one of Gentoo's hallmarks is that you
basically install it once and you (almost) never have to do it again.

That is of course Steve's business..... although if he's going to
reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a
reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning
system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much
faster.

But maybe I just have a strange point of view.

Holly



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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Daniel da Veiga]

Nothing changed for those who already installed Gentoo ever, as stated
before, it will be even faster/easier to install for a experienced
user, and has advantages like not keeping circular references, etc.

Another point of view: easier to install means that the "newbie
filter" that install was crumbles, well, we'll receive lots of emails
now and the foruns will receive more posts too. Some will think its
good, others not. I myself think its good, more people joining. But in
the other hand, lets face it, Gentoo is not easy, its not simple and
its not designed or the best distro to start in the Linux world.

On 11/21/05, Holly Bostick <motub@planet.nl> wrote:
> Hemmann, Volker Armin schreef:
> > On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote:
> >
> >> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did
> >>  a stage 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a
> >> stage 3 u couldn't muck with your CFLAGS or what not. If I'm forced
> >>  to use canned binaries I might as well go with FC or Debian.. I've
> >>  never listened to the "Gentoo is dead" comments.. but now who
> >> knows.. this is just crazy.. who came up with this stupid idea?
> >> from the sounds of it certianly not the Gentoo Community!
> >>
> >
> >
> > well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow
> >  the stage1 instructions.
> >
> > And gentoo needs more idiots, right?
> >
> > Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has
> > weakend now, too.
>
>  I don't actually agree... the impression I'm getting is that Gentoo has
> now matured/evolved into a state where filters are no longer necessary
> (or as necessary as previously).
>
> Before now, the Gentoo install was rather fragmented, because all the
> tools necessary to install Gentoo did not all work, or did not all work
> as well as they needed to, or did not all work as well as they needed to
> in combination with each other. In practical market terms, you wouldn't
> want just everybody installing it-- in order to ensure a good and
> successful experience for the largest number of people, you would not
> want to encourage those who were untrained or refused training, since
> the state of the backend required training for successful use. Those who
> were turned off by the amount or complexity of the documentation (and/or
> the length of time the install entailed) would tend naturally to fall away.
>
> But once Gentoo is actually installed, it's just as easy to use as
> anything else. Maybe you have to learn "emerge -whatever" instead of
> "apt-get whatever", but one is not particularly "harder" than the other.
> It was always the install that was hard, not the usage.
>
> The evolution/maturation of Gentoo and its associated tools means that
> in order to install Gentoo you no longer have to carefully pick your way
> across a minefield (stage 1), but can with confidence stride across a
> beautiful grassy plain (stage 3). If you then want to turn around and
> "customize" that field-- plant some flowers, for example-- you can do
> that (emerge -e world), or you don't have to. But the point is that if
> you want to interrupt your journey to whatever was on the other side of
> that field (use your PC for whatever you planned to do with the system,
> instead of suffering to install the system in the first place) you now
> have a choice about whether to do that or not. You are not essentially
> forced to do so by the fact that the minefield was not clear and passage
> to the other side was not easy or safe and required a great deal of
> attention.
>
> Unbelievable that people are complaining about an improvement in
> ease-of-use (or in this case, installation). I'd also wonder why Steve
> B. is installing (again) anyway; one of Gentoo's hallmarks is that you
> basically install it once and you (almost) never have to do it again.
>
> That is of course Steve's business..... although if he's going to
> reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a
> reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning
> system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much
> faster.
>
> But maybe I just have a strange point of view.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Holly Bostick]

Daniel da Veiga schreef:
> Gentoo is not easy, its not simple and its not designed or the best 
> distro to start in the Linux world.
> 

Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro,
once you get past the install issue?

Is learning Portage somehow intrinsically harder than figuring out how
to manage YAST and YOU, if you don't know anything at all about package
management (which, after all, Windows doesn't have at all)? Does having
to figure out how to acquire a media player that will play your MP3s and
DVDs by default, because you're using a distro that does not legally
prefer this functionality to be distributed, somehow make that distro
easier to use, or simpler in some way? The ATI drivers are a b**ch to
install no matter what distro you use, if you need them.

Just what precisely is so not-simple about Gentoo as opposed to any
other distro (barring perhaps Linspire)?

Holly
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Anthony Roy]

> Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro,
> once you get past the install issue?

Several points here:

1) The install issue is the crux isn't it? A Linux newbie would falter
at this first hurdle. I have recently installed two Gentoo stage 3
installations, and the biggest problem a newbie would face is that if
something went wrong during the install (i.e. they missed a step in
the instructions somewhere) they wouldn't have the experience to work
out where they went wrong and fix it.

2) The install procedure is a relatively lengthy process (mainly due
to the time it takes to download and compile). Both of my
installations had to be spread over two or three evenings before the
kernel was built and the Gentoo system was ready to stand alone.
Without a good chunk of prior experiece, a newbie wouldn't know how to
get back to where they left off.

3) Linux newbies generally come from somewhere - the vast majority
don't stumble upon Linux as their first OS. Which means they will be
coming from a Windows or Mac background. Both are heavily GUI focused
- don't underestimate the intimidation factor of a Console to the
average Windows/Mac user.

> Just what precisely is so not-simple about Gentoo as opposed to any
> other distro (barring perhaps Linspire)?

See above and in addition, most mainstream Linux distro's out there
will with little work from the user provide a desktop environment with
all of the office and multimedia software installed, and hardware set
up.

These are not criticisms of Gentoo - I love it so far. After the
initial install, setting up Apache and subversion was a doddle, and
took far less time than when I did it on the previous Suse
installation, with the advantage that I now have a lean fast and tidy
server, rather than the bloated and messy system Suse gave me. This is
mainly due to Gentoo's excellent Portage system, and superb
documentation. But then I am not a Linux newbie, and work as a
software developer for a living ;-)

JM2PW

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Ant...

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Philip Webb]

051121 Holly Bostick wrote:
> Daniel da Veiga schreef:
>> Gentoo is not easy, its not simple
>> and its not designed or the best distro to start in the Linux world.
> What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro,
> once you get past the install issue?

In a word, 'maintenance'.  No, that's not hard for you & me,
but your typical Linux novice is going to have to learn a lot
to keep his/her box as upto-date as s/he would using a binary distro.
For the latter, you just download the new Kubuntu/etc ISO every few months,
whereas with Gentoo either you choose which pkgs to update & when,
-- eg do I get KDE 3.4.3 while it's ~x86 or wait till it's 'stable'
or wait a bit longer till 3.5.0 is ~x86 or ... ? (that's my approach) --
or you blindly do 'emerge world' & hope for the best (I never 'emerge world').
Also, you have to configure & install new kernel versions
or can you trust it to Genkernel (which I have never used)?

I couldn't think of using anything but Gentoo on my workaday box,
but for my back-up machine it's likely to be Mandrake 2006 ,
as the CPU is too slow for painless Portage & I update it only once/year.

Newcomers to Linux should be advised to try something better than Linspire,
but should not be introduced to Gentoo until they're used to UNIX methods
& are prepared to invest a bit of their on-going time in sysadmin.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:33:25 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:

> Hogwash. What's so hard about it, as opposed to any other Linux distro,
> once you get past the install issue?

Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when
you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this
automatically.

Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full
control over the system and still have it do things automatically for
you.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

We secretly replaced the dilithium with Folgers Crystals

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Robin]

>
> Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full
> control over the system and still have it do things automatically for
> you.
>

I could not of said it any better.
And of the distros I have used Gentoo is the best, although not my
first.  And I would not recommend it to novice unless they had/want a
lot of time learning....

My 2 cents ;)

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 11/22/05, Robin <diilbert.atlantis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Gentoo has to be harder to use than other distros, you can't have full
> > control over the system and still have it do things automatically for
> > you.
> >

Exactly, the computer can do amazing things, but in order to keep it
clean, specific and optmized, human intervention is crucial, its the
reason I have a job :) you just can't have a stable, reliable and
highly optmized system without messing with config files by hand. What
you can do is leave the work for the computer and it will give you a
"general" good option. "General" is not good enough for me, that's the
main reason I use Gentoo.

> I could not of said it any better.
> And of the distros I have used Gentoo is the best, although not my
> first.  And I would not recommend it to novice unless they had/want a
> lot of time learning....
>
> My 2 cents ;)
>
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


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Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Manuel McLure]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when
> you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this
> automatically.

Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if 
you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit 
wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key, and add

modules=("wpa_supplicant")
wlan0=("dhcp")

in /etc/conf.d/net

The other distros I tried all had long HOWTOs (complete with editing 
system scripts as opposed to just editing configuration files) on how to 
make sure wpa_supplicant would start before the interface came up.


-- 
Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW <manuel@mclure.org> <http://www.mclure.org>
...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law,
no man may kill a cat.                       -- H.P. Lovecraft
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[William Kenworthy]

Actually, as someone who uses wireless across a number of nets, wireless
on gentoo sucks hugely.  

Was at a presentation the other day and saw an Ubutu user just walk in,
a couple of quick commands and he had connected - after much work I
still cant do that to a particular no-encryption net.  I am hoping the
last wpa_supplicant version I have installed will make the difference -
manual iwconfig does work by the way, just not via the gentoo files!

A mess of config files
(/etc/conf.d/wireless, /etc/conf.d/net, /etc/wpa_supplicant, ...),
different versions of software work in only some combinations - only
0.4.5 (~x86) will work with 2.6.14, some other versions will do WPA_PSK,
but not no encryption.- - I suspect the gentoo config design is the main
stumbling block.

I realise wireless is complicated (read the above files for instance,
but gentoo has complicated things further (try and work out which of the
above files a particular variable will work ... note that for
wpa_supplicant, not all permutations are listed in the otherwise
comprehensive instructions)

BillK


On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 09:24 -0800, Manuel McLure wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually when
> > you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of this
> > automatically.
> 
> Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if 
> you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit 
> wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key, and add
> 
> modules=("wpa_supplicant")
> wlan0=("dhcp")
> 
> in /etc/conf.d/net
> 
> The other distros I tried all had long HOWTOs (complete with editing 
> system scripts as opposed to just editing configuration files) on how to 
> make sure wpa_supplicant would start before the interface came up.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW <manuel@mclure.org> <http://www.mclure.org>
> ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law,
> no man may kill a cat.                       -- H.P. Lovecraft
-- 
William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au>
Home!
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Manuel McLure]

William Kenworthy wrote:
> Actually, as someone who uses wireless across a number of nets, wireless
> on gentoo sucks hugely.  
> 
> Was at a presentation the other day and saw an Ubutu user just walk in,
> a couple of quick commands and he had connected - after much work I
> still cant do that to a particular no-encryption net.  I am hoping the
> last wpa_supplicant version I have installed will make the difference -
> manual iwconfig does work by the way, just not via the gentoo files!
> 
> A mess of config files
> (/etc/conf.d/wireless, /etc/conf.d/net, /etc/wpa_supplicant, ...),
> different versions of software work in only some combinations - only
> 0.4.5 (~x86) will work with 2.6.14, some other versions will do WPA_PSK,
> but not no encryption.- - I suspect the gentoo config design is the main
> stumbling block.
> 
> I realise wireless is complicated (read the above files for instance,
> but gentoo has complicated things further (try and work out which of the
> above files a particular variable will work ... note that for
> wpa_supplicant, not all permutations are listed in the otherwise
> comprehensive instructions)

Interesting, as the distro I was specifically comparing to was Kubuntu - 
getting it to connect to my WPA-PSK network at home was a PITA, while 
Gentoo worked beautifully - emerge ndiswrapper, run ndiswrapper -i to 
install the driver, emerge wpa_supplicant, modify a stanza in the 
wpa_supplicant.conf file to reflect my SSID and PSK, and "ifup wlan0".

Kubuntu had no options for entering a WPA-PSK key other than manually 
editing the files, and you had to trick it to make sure that it ran the 
supplicant before trying to bring the interface up.

By the way, wpa_supplicant should handle non-encrypted and WEP networks 
very nicely - if you use it you don't need to play around with 
/etc/conf.d/wireless.

-- 
Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW <manuel@mclure.org> <http://www.mclure.org>
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:24:49 -0800, Manuel McLure wrote:

> > Try plugging in a wireless NIC. It's not hard to set on up manually
> > when you know what you are doing, but other distros will take care of
> > this automatically.
> 
> Perhaps if you're using WEP it's easier on a binary distro, but if 
> you're using WPA-PSK it's a lot easier on Gentoo. Just edit 
> wpa_supplicant.conf to enter your pre-shared key

Don't forget recompiling your kernel to include the necessary support,
Googling to find out which drivers to use and emerging them, etc.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

She's always late. Her ancestors arrived on the June flower.

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[George Garvey]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a
> reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning
> system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much
> faster.
> 
> But maybe I just have a strange point of view.

   No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite
unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a
functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of
this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But maybe
I just have a strange point of view.
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Manuel McLure]

George Garvey wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> 
>>reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a
>>reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a functioning
>>system (from which he can emerge -e world to his heart's content) much
>>faster.
> 
> 
>    No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite
> unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a
> functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of
> this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But maybe
> I just have a strange point of view.

She didn't say Stage 3 would leave him with a functioning system - she 
said that it's *faster* to get to a functioning system from Stage 3 than 
it would be from Stage 2 or 1.

-- 
Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW <manuel@mclure.org> <http://www.mclure.org>
...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law,
no man may kill a cat.                       -- H.P. Lovecraft
-- 
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Holly Bostick]

George Garvey schreef:
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> 
>> reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a 
>> reinstall is now likely to be much easier, and lead to a 
>> functioning system (from which he can emerge -e world to his 
>> heart's content) much faster.
>> 
>> But maybe I just have a strange point of view.
> 
> 
> No, you presume a strange point of view on Steve's part, quite 
> unfairly. That is why he posted: stage 3 did NOT leave him a 
> functioning system from his POV. I don't know the right or wrong of 
> this, but implying Steve is an idiot seems quite derogatory. But 
> maybe I just have a strange point of view.

Sorry, no intention of implying that anyone other than myself was an
idiot ("I wonder" implies I do not understand something, so if anyone is
an idiot, it must be me for missing something so obvious to everyone
else, so I was actually asking for clarification), and apologies if it
read that way.

Myself, I don't consider that either a stage 1 or stage 3 leaves me with
more than a minimally functional system after the initial install, but a
stage 3 leaves me with a *higher functioning* minimal install than a
stage 1 does. Either way, I have to put in a fair amount of time either
installing the full system that includes the apps and whatnot that I
actually use, or customizing the stage 3 to reflect my actual usage
patterns, both of which operations take a lot of time.

But at least after a stage 3, I don't have to be *uncomfortable* while
I'm waiting to get my system up to my personal spec-- I can still *use*
Mozilla, even if it's compiled with Mail, and Composer, and IRC, while I
wait for it to recompile with the -moz*** USE flags.

Of course, that's the reason I generally did an Alternative Stage 1
install from inside another distro (Knoppix once, SuSE once), because I
only have the one system, and looking at a relatively useless console
for two or three days while my mail piles up doesn't suit me (not a big
Mutt user, and lynx annoys me). So this entire discussion doesn't have
so much personal relevance to me, except that it means that I can just
install Gentoo (in a couple of hours) should I ever need to do that
again, rather than having to haul out a Knoppix CD or boot to my SuSE
install because I want to (re-)install Gentoo (over a couple of days).

Holly
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[W.Kenworthy]

Some thoughts:

I recently did a stage 1 install and found that the process seems to
have deteriorated to the point it was more work than it should have been
- hence I see some of the reasons for abandoning it.  In particular, the
recompiling needed to bring it to a GCC 3.4.4 with all the options I
needed meant that a stage 1 gained me nothing, and I lost quite a bit of
time.

The majority of systems I have recently installed have been tar over ssh
from a running system (usually a LiveCD - I have P3/P4 and athlon - just
choose the appropriate base).  A small install can be up and running in
less than 30 mins (IF you already have a running system!) - and its
mostly preconfigured which is where I find I spend most of *MY* time.
Only downside I have come across is cruft, but that can be managed.

I consider this as the equivalent of a targeted (for my purposes)
customised super stage3 install.

With todays large hard disks, I also put aside a 4G reiserfs partition
that contains a minimal install (inc a tailess /boot) to keep me working
(i.e., the gateway has a basic webserver, squid, nat setup, mail
server, ..., the desktop has fluxbox, OO and evolution - my main work
tools and so on. Maintenance is done in a chroot, with an occasional
test when scheduled with major kernel upgrades.  If in fiddling, I have
a disaster, I can keep working while rebuilding.  If more than one
physical HD is present, grub is installed in each MBR - many modern MB's
allow you to choose which HD to boot from - quite handy! Worst comes to
worst, a few minutes with tar and I have a basic, but fully configured
base to start the recovery process back to the original system.

I have found the 4G partition very handy when the raid array broke (disk
failure - the 4G was in an unaffected area of the disk - non-raided, so
was easily rescued), software problems (bad kernel upgrades) and just
having the peace of mind that I can keep working through most disasters.
I would highly recommend that this be a standard part of the install for
critical systems (e.g., SOHO gateways), and especially for those who
have only a single system to work with.

With a little planning, it is possible to have an install once, and
multiply/upgrade forever maintenance process - this is one of gentoo's
current strengths.

BillK

On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 01:40 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> George Garvey schreef:
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 04:17:45PM +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> > 
> >> reinstall, again I must wonder why he would complain that such a 

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:40:02 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:

> Myself, I don't consider that either a stage 1 or stage 3 leaves me with
> more than a minimally functional system after the initial install, but a
> stage 3 leaves me with a *higher functioning* minimal install than a
> stage 1 does.

A stage 3 install doesn't give you any more than a stage 1. all it means
is you skip some laborious and time-consuming steps in the handbook, you
end up in the same place.

> But at least after a stage 3, I don't have to be *uncomfortable* while
> I'm waiting to get my system up to my personal spec-- I can still *use*
> Mozilla, even if it's compiled with Mail, and Composer, and IRC, while I
> wait for it to recompile with the -moz*** USE flags.

You can't, stage 3 doesn't even include X. However, you can use the GRP
packages with a stage 3 installation, because the flags are all at
default, so you can merge your preferred DE, mail and browser as binary
packages in a few minutes.

If you like ~arch, you don't even need an emerge --emptytree after the
system is running, as emerge -uDN world after changing KEYWORDS and
USE will update just about everything anyway.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Any program which runs right is obsolete.

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[kashani]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> well, it was made, because the idiots are too dumb to read and follow the 
> stage1 instructions.
> 
> And gentoo needs more idiots, right?
> 
> Up until now, the installation was a nice filter - but that has weakend now, 
> too.

	The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time 
for another "Keep Gentoo leet" thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's 
about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me 
to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. 
Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a 
hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler.

Which is a conclusion just as logical as easier installs bring idiots.

	I so am tired of this argument that I'm not even going to call anyone a 
chowderhead this time around. Look at the history/life cycle of any 
industry or technology. Gentoo is on track to leave the Innovation 
phase, assuming a few tech problems get fully worked out, and enter the 
Early Adopter phase. Or maybe the Early Majority phase... you could 
probably make a case for either.

http://marketingsage.net/W2W_Market_Stages.htm

	Yeah it's marketing speak which doesn't exactly match a project like 
Gentoo so well, but it's close enough. So rather than keeping out idiots 
we're keeping out the "Early Adopters adopt new ideas early, but 
carefully. They seek breakthrough advantages. They can be respected 
opinion leaders. They will invest in creating a complete solution so 
they may need lots of support." Translate that into "they're willing to 
deal with crappy processes to get the advantages and work to improve the 
shortcomings."

	I'll take that sort of idiot any day of the week.

kashani
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[John J. Foster]

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On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:20:12PM -0600, kashani wrote:
> 
> 	The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time 
> for another "Keep Gentoo leet" thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's 
> about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me 
> to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. 

Well said !!!
-- 
If voting could change anything,
it would be illegal

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Jason Dodson]

Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off...

> On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 01:20:12PM -0600, kashani wrote:
> 
>>	The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time 
>>for another "Keep Gentoo leet" thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's 
>>about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me 
>>to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. 
> 


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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[kashani]

Jason Dodson wrote:
> Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off...

	I suspect I'd spend more time typing if I had to use only my nose 
rather than fingers so this fails the "get more work done" test. Perhaps 
your nose is more dexterous than mine?

	Jokes aside my definition of "getting more work done" does include 
things being stable so I don't have to fix them again, not giving up 
flexibility that would save me work in the future, and so forth. There 
is a fine line to walk and in many case I'll err on the side of more 
work during working hours to be sure of no work in my own time.

	On the other hand I just took a job as employee #6 at a startup in San 
Francisco which is sure to double the number of hours I work as well as 
move me cross country so maybe I'm not as smart as I thought.

kashani
PS: anyone in SF need a roommate?
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Steven Susbauer]

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Maybe it's just me, but I have never seen the Stage 1 as any harder than
Stage 3. The only difference was... umm... setting your CFLAGS and USE
flags. Seriously, how hard is it to type bootstrap, or emerge -e system?

I am not saying the move is bad, I totally understand it. I hope that the
new docs do have a "How to recompile everything" at the end somewhere
though, for those of us that like the optimization.

As far as I've seen, stage 1 is still on the mirrors. If it's really an
issue for you, why not download it and just run bootstrap and emerge?

On 11/21/05, kashani <kashani-list@badapple.net> wrote:
>
> Jason Dodson wrote:
> > Such a scenario could be your your arms and legs falling off...
>
> I suspect I'd spend more time typing if I had to use only my nose
> rather than fingers so this fails the "get more work done" test. Perhaps
> your nose is more dexterous than mine?
>
> Jokes aside my definition of "getting more work done" does include
> things being stable so I don't have to fix them again, not giving up
> flexibility that would save me work in the future, and so forth. There
> is a fine line to walk and in many case I'll err on the side of more
> work during working hours to be sure of no work in my own time.
>
> On the other hand I just took a job as employee #6 at a startup in San
> Francisco which is sure to double the number of hours I work as well as
> move me cross country so maybe I'm not as smart as I thought.
>
> kashani
> PS: anyone in SF need a roommate?
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
------------------------
Steven Susbauer

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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Manuel McLure]

Steven Susbauer wrote:
>I hope that
> the new docs do have a "How to recompile everything" at the end 
> somewhere though, for those of us that like the optimization.

The new handbook links to http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/faq.xml#stage12 - 
how to get the equivalent of a Stage 1 install while still starting with 
  a Stage3.

-- 
Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW <manuel@mclure.org> <http://www.mclure.org>
...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law,
no man may kill a cat.                       -- H.P. Lovecraft
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

> 	The last top posting/html thread was 3 weeks ago... so yes it's time
> for another "Keep Gentoo leet" thread. Gentoo isn't about pain, it's
> about getting work done. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me
> to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing.
> Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a
> hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler.

no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the 
fucking manual.

Because this people are also too dumb to read:
the nvidia/ati instructions and spam the mailing lists and forums with their 
non-problems, causing time and bandwith wasted.

the alsa-guide. Again, their dumbness causes pain for others

the gcc manpages. Instead, they will use some stupid, braindead useflags they 
found in the forums (like ffast-math or -funroll-all-loops) because some 
other idiot told them, that this are 'cool' 'fast' flags.

In short: stupid non-readers are causing pain. Making the world and everything 
easier for them, is more pain for the people clever enough to READ and FOLLOW 
the guides and instructions.

Idiots should use distris for idiots. There are enough out there. Why turn 
gentoo in one too?
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Nagatoro]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
>>Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a
>>hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler.
> 
> no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the 
> fucking manual.

Or the FAQ? Where it's described how to do a stage1/2 equivalent install 
from a stage3.

-- 
Naga
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 11/22/05, Nagatoro <nagatoro@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> >>Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants a harder install is a
> >>hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler.
> >
> > no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the
> > fucking manual.
>
> Or the FAQ? Where it's described how to do a stage1/2 equivalent install
> from a stage3.

Gentoo is widely documented, and if you can read, most answers are
already at the wikis, howtos, gentoo docs and mailing lists, add to
this the foruns and user groups. Gentoo has a knowledge base that can
make you solve most problems, of course, if its one of those HARD
issues, you can always ask, but then again, those are 10% (if all of
that) from our traffic.

So, yes, the install was a "how to read and follow the manual"
teaching, and stage3 is easier and taught less than stage1, but hey,
its faster and have less side effects, and besides, if you can get a
stage1 from a stage3, who cares?!

But again, we'll have lots of RTFM and STFW in our foruns and mailing
lists... If you can find the manual page, don't give them the
solutions, give the link instead, teaching someone how to fish feeds
for a lifetime, giving someone the fish itself only feed once.

> --
> Naga
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


--
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[Billy Holmes]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:

> no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the 
> fucking manual.

I understand where you are coming from, however, without people willing 
to push the envelope and try new things, nothing will innovated will 
happen. While being an expert on such matters definitely helps, by no 
means does that mean that accidents don't innovate. Look at penicillin, 
and various other "inventions".

Stub your toe on an install a few times, and you'll learn a LOT. 
Granted, if you keep stubbing your toe then expect to get kill filed.

What is the saying? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over 
again, while always expecting a different outcome.

yeah.. something like that.
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Re: default stage3 (was : [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo still on the right path?)

[kashani]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> no, I want an installation, that filters out everybody too dumb to read the 
> fucking manual.

	Where do you draw the line? Someday we're going to have real reverse 
dependecy checking, fixing, etc. So any idiot can blindly update x 
package and not have to realize that it was a major upgrade and manually 
check all his packages that depend on it and upgrade/rebuild those 
packages and restart the services. Is that too idiot proof?

You say coddling idiots, I say fixing broken or overly complicated 
processes.

	On a mailing list you're going to get questions stupid and otherwise. 
If you're not prepared to deal with this, unsubscribe or figure out how 
to use the delete button. I don't use Linux as a desktop so I generally 
delete 60-70% of the traffic in gentoo-user. You don't have to read the 
entire list.
	Let's take yet another of my real world examples that I like to use in 
place of random foaming at the mouth, The Gentoo Virtual Mail How-to. 
It's a decent How-to if you follow it exactly. By answering a hundred or 
so questions related to it in the forums I've been able to fix my 
installation faster when it broke, upgrade without problems, know 
exactly what errors are caused what symptoms, and ultimately change the 
original flawed design to work better and safer.

You say taking up space and bandwidth, I say QA testers though 
admittedly poorly trained.

	As for Gentoo being for idiots, I have a calendar at work. Every so 
often I mark a day a Super Genius when I think of something especially 
brillant. And every so often I mark a day as Befuddled by the Obvious 
for those days when I'm surprised that anyone actually lets me admin 
their network. Over the course of the year they generally total about 
the same. I suspect most of us are in the same boat. As long as Gentoo 
facilitates the Genius moments as well as keeping me a bit safer during 
the Befuddled moments it's striking the right balance.

You say we'll let in idiots, I say we have met the enemy and it is us.

kashani
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[gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Allan Gottlieb]

At Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:13:14 +0100 "Hemmann, Volker Armin" <volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote:
>> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a stage
>> 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't
>> muck with your CFLAGS or what not.

We have a lot in common in this regard.

I also always had done stage1 installs.
I also misremembered that CFLAGS couldn't be changed if using stage3.
I also posted this mis-remembrance to the present list.

As was very politely explained to me:

1.  It was CHOST, not CFLAGS.

2.  You can (at least now, not sure about previously) actually change
    CHOST, but must run a utility afterward.

3.  If you fiddle with USE flags, /etc/package.* files, etc, you can
    get the effect of a customized stage1 install by recompiling
    everything twice.  I suspect simply
         emerge -e world; emerge -e world

    3A.  Only a few items really need to be compiled the first time.

    3B.  There are scripts in the forums to do this "automatically".

Thus, I conclude that, unless you are changing bootstrap.sh (which I
never did), you really can get the effect of a stage1 starting with
stage3.

I would not use the term "faster" to describe the stage3 equivalent of
stage1, especially if you are lazy and do the double emerge -e world.
Instead, I would say that there are two advantages to the user

1.  You can use your machine for reading/sending mail, browsing the
    web, etc while all the compilation is proceeding.  So the machine
    is usable sooner, even if the procedure is not faster.

2.  You avoid the chance to make the kind of error I did in changed
    USE flags too aggressively, *too early* in the process.

Perhaps more important is that there is one big advantage to the
developers and seasoned gentoo experts on this list.

1.  Fewer installation errors due to faulty understanding of a stage1
    process results in fewer requests for help, requests that likely
    to the expert seem to all be essentially the same, and do not lead
    to improvement of the stage1 process.

A converted supported of stage3 --> stage1-equivalent installs,
allan
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RE: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Bob Young]

-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Gottlieb [mailto:gottlieb@nyu.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:16 PM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

At Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:13:14 +0100 "Hemmann, Volker Armin"
<volker.armin.hemmann@tu-clausthal.de> wrote:

> On Monday 21 November 2005 13:33, Steve B wrote:
>> WTF.. I'm getting ready to rebuild my gentoo box. I have always did a
stage
>> 1 install. i was under the impression that if u used a stage 3 u couldn't
>> muck with your CFLAGS or what not.

3.  If you fiddle with USE flags, /etc/package.* files, etc, you can
    get the effect of a customized stage1 install by recompiling
    everything twice.  I suspect simply
         emerge -e world; emerge -e world

    3A.  Only a few items really need to be compiled the first time.

    3B.  There are scripts in the forums to do this "automatically".


I installed gentoo on a dual Opteron box this weekend, I've always done
stage1 installs, but this time decided to try the recommeded stage3 method.
I understand the concept of doing an "emerge -e world" in order to get the
optimization of a stage1 install, and I've done this ( one time ) on the
install I just completed. Can sombody explain why it's necessary/desirable
to do this *twice*?

What real difference does the second execution really make?

Thanks,
Bob Young


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Ryan Sims]

> I installed gentoo on a dual Opteron box this weekend, I've always done
> stage1 installs, but this time decided to try the recommeded stage3 method.
> I understand the concept of doing an "emerge -e world" in order to get the
> optimization of a stage1 install, and I've done this ( one time ) on the
> install I just completed. Can sombody explain why it's necessary/desirable
> to do this *twice*?
>
> What real difference does the second execution really make?
>

As I understand it, the first time you recompile new toolchain with
your old toolchain, and then the 2nd time you're recompiling the
toolchain with the new toolchain, with the idea that the new toolchain
will compile/assemble/link/etc everything in a different way than the
old toolchain.

Please correct if I'm wrong.

--
Ryan W Sims

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Matthias Langer]

On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 17:01 -0500, Ryan Sims wrote:
> > I installed gentoo on a dual Opteron box this weekend, I've always done
> > stage1 installs, but this time decided to try the recommeded stage3 method.
> > I understand the concept of doing an "emerge -e world" in order to get the
> > optimization of a stage1 install, and I've done this ( one time ) on the
> > install I just completed. Can sombody explain why it's necessary/desirable
> > to do this *twice*?
> >
> > What real difference does the second execution really make?
> >
> 
> As I understand it, the first time you recompile new toolchain with
> your old toolchain, and then the 2nd time you're recompiling the
> toolchain with the new toolchain, with the idea that the new toolchain
> will compile/assemble/link/etc everything in a different way than the
> old toolchain.
> 
> Please correct if I'm wrong.

I would suggest 'emerge -uD gcc && emerge -e world'; This should
recompile the new toolchain with the new toolchain and be considerably
faster.

Matthias

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:28:26 +0100, Matthias Langer wrote:

> > As I understand it, the first time you recompile new toolchain with
> > your old toolchain, and then the 2nd time you're recompiling the
> > toolchain with the new toolchain, with the idea that the new toolchain
> > will compile/assemble/link/etc everything in a different way than the
> > old toolchain.
> > 
> > Please correct if I'm wrong.
> 
> I would suggest 'emerge -uD gcc && emerge -e world'; This should
> recompile the new toolchain with the new toolchain and be considerably
> faster.

The first command won't do anything, -D doesn't take account of of USE or
CFLAG changes.

emerge -e system && emerge -e world might be better, but there are scripts
on the forums that recompile just what you need, in the best order, such
as; http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-282474.html



-- 
Neil Bothwick

I came, I saw, I had no idea what was going on, I left.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Richard Fish]

On 11/22/05, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> The first command won't do anything, -D doesn't take account of of USE or
> CFLAG changes.

It will update gcc or any dependancies of gcc to the current version. 
Unless one of those things have been updated, there is no need to
build anything more than once, because the code produced by gcc
doesn't change based on the CFLAGS/CHOST/USE settings that _gcc_ was
compiled with.

emerge -uD system && emerge -e world is sufficient.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: default stage3

[Matthias Langer]

On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 09:17 +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:28:26 +0100, Matthias Langer wrote:
> 
> > > As I understand it, the first time you recompile new toolchain with
> > > your old toolchain, and then the 2nd time you're recompiling the
> > > toolchain with the new toolchain, with the idea that the new toolchain
> > > will compile/assemble/link/etc everything in a different way than the
> > > old toolchain.
> > > 
> > > Please correct if I'm wrong.
> > 
> > I would suggest 'emerge -uD gcc && emerge -e world'; This should
> > recompile the new toolchain with the new toolchain and be considerably
> > faster.
> 
> The first command won't do anything, -D doesn't take account of of USE or
> CFLAG changes.

Well, you are right, in theory; In practice, where the toolchain on the
live-cd is not up to date, it will get completley recompiled by emerge
-uD gcc (after syncing) - at least I think so ...

However, thanks for pointing that out ...
> 
> emerge -e system && emerge -e world might be better, but there are scripts
> on the forums that recompile just what you need, in the best order, such
> as; http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-282474.html
> 
Matthias



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