[gentoo-user] status of dev-java/icedtea

[gentoo-user] status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

So I got the feed item about GLSA 201606-18 the other day:

https://security.gentoo.org/glsa/201606-18

Quoting:

> Gentoo Security is no longer supporting dev-java/icedtea, as it has
> been officially dropped from the stable tree.

What is this?  Does it mean the only Java available in Gentoo will be
the non-free Oracle blob? :(

I can find nothing about this in the archives of gentoo-java.

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Re: [gentoo-user] status of dev-java/icedtea

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 22:19:26 -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> > Gentoo Security is no longer supporting dev-java/icedtea, as it has
> > been officially dropped from the stable tree.  
> 
> What is this?  Does it mean the only Java available in Gentoo will be
> the non-free Oracle blob? :(

It means exactly what it says, icedtea has been dropped from stable. It's
still there but you'll have to keyword it. In that case you are
unsupported by Gentoo Security and will have to live with whatever
vulnerabilities it has.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 41: Good grief

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Re: [gentoo-user] status of dev-java/icedtea

[Gregory Woodbury]

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There is GNU gcj
:-)


-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com

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Re: [gentoo-user] status of dev-java/icedtea

[R0b0t1]

Order of paranoia: different user, different context, different guest,
different computer, different network, different continent, different
planet.

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-06-30 05:37 -0400, Gregory Woodbury wrote:

> There is GNU gcj
> :-)

Doesn't provide virtual/jdk :-(

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[wabe]

Ian Zimmerman <itz@buug.org> wrote:

> On 2016-06-30 05:37 -0400, Gregory Woodbury wrote:
> 
> > There is GNU gcj
> > :-)  
> 
> Doesn't provide virtual/jdk :-(

Today I set -java in my make.conf, deinstalled projectx, recompiled 
libreoffice (never used lbase anyway) and so got rid of the whole 
java stuff on my system. 

--
Regards
wabe

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-06-30 22:34 +0200, wabe wrote:

> Today I set -java in my make.conf, deinstalled projectx, recompiled 
> libreoffice (never used lbase anyway) and so got rid of the whole 
> java stuff on my system. 

I agree with the general sentiment, but ... in a few cases there's no
reasonable alternative.

Example: games-board/cgoban2.  I tried very hard to stay with the old,
crufty Xlib based (so java free) predecessor cgoban which I used on
Debian, but to make it usable at all its source needs to be patched, and
in a Catch-22 the ebuild doesn't use EAPI 5 so patching is hacky in the
extreme.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Stroller]

> On 1 Jul 2016, at 00:28, Ian Zimmerman <itz@buug.org> wrote:
> 
> Example: games-board/cgoban2.  I tried very hard to stay with the old,
> crufty Xlib based (so java free) predecessor cgoban which I used on
> Debian, but to make it usable at all its source needs to be patched, and
> in a Catch-22 the ebuild doesn't use EAPI 5 so patching is hacky in the
> extreme.

Surely if there’s an ebuild in the tree, yet it needs patching, you should be filing a bug to get the patch included.

An updated ebuild should be added to the tree, which will use EAPI 5 and include the patch.

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-07-01 15:02 +0100, Stroller wrote:

> Surely if there’s an ebuild in the tree, yet it needs patching, you
> should be filing a bug to get the patch included.

Even the patch is so horribly ugly that I cannot bring myself to do
this.  The program has a hardcoded list of bitmap fonts, and the
particular fonts make it unusable on my huge screen; my patch replaces
the list with other bitmap fonts, equally hardcoded but suitable for my
environment.

I really doubt that such a patch would be accepted.  Or any patch, in
fact; I half expect that the response would be "Why don't you just use
the nice java-based cgoban2?"

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 07/01/2016 07:50 AM, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2016-07-01 15:02 +0100, Stroller wrote:
> 
>> Surely if there’s an ebuild in the tree, yet it needs patching, you
>> should be filing a bug to get the patch included.
> 
> Even the patch is so horribly ugly that I cannot bring myself to do
> this.  The program has a hardcoded list of bitmap fonts, and the
> particular fonts make it unusable on my huge screen; my patch replaces
> the list with other bitmap fonts, equally hardcoded but suitable for my
> environment.
> 
> I really doubt that such a patch would be accepted.  Or any patch, in
> fact; I half expect that the response would be "Why don't you just use
> the nice java-based cgoban2?"
> 
Even poor patches are encouraged in bug reports, because a hacky patch
can be turned into a better one. Chewi and monsieurp have done a lot to
improve Java packages, but there are so many that they won't know which
ones need attention without a bug report. As far as I understand, we
generally recommend icedtea over Oracle's Java stuff.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
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[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-07-01 15:39 -0700, Daniel Campbell wrote:

> Even poor patches are encouraged in bug reports, because a hacky patch
> can be turned into a better one. Chewi and monsieurp have done a lot to
> improve Java packages, but there are so many that they won't know which
> ones need attention without a bug report.

This is a misunderstanding: the thread mostly is about me migrating to a
relatively nice java using package (cgoban2) because its predecessor
(cgoban), written to bare Xlib, is insufferable.  It is this latter
package I tried patching.

> As far as I understand, we generally recommend icedtea over Oracle's
> Java stuff.

Really?  The thread started with me asking about the removal of icedtea
from stable.  (Looking at its list of build dependencies, I sorta
understand :P)

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[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[James]

Ian Zimmerman <itz <at> buug.org> writes:


> > As far as I understand, we generally recommend icedtea over Oracle's
> > Java stuff.

> Really?  The thread started with me asking about the removal of icedtea
> from stable.  (Looking at its list of build dependencies, I sorta
> understand :P)

I have to agree with Ian on this. In fact the tree cleaners have removed lots
of packages just because they can. I have dozens in my personal
/usr/local/portage tree now, that should not have been tossed, imho.

icedtea is widely used, but I got tired of fighting the 'gentoo java
mentality' There on a mission to purge as much as possible. A vew years back,
that had massive problems with java being poorly maintained. Since the java
project revitalization, it's a crusade to purge everthing that 'the few' do
not want. Hell, just leave it and mark it as unstable. There are tons of
'security issues' causing packages to be removed, when the security issues
are very minor or irrelevant. Here is one smack-down::

06/30/2016 10:00 PM
[gentoo-dev] why is the security team running around

It's a disease to clean the tree to the port of a few devs personal
preferences. Many have been put in the orphaned pile, but that is not an
excuse to purge those packages.

I tried to proxy maintain, via the proxy mailing list, but that is
disfunctional. I strongly detest IRC, so I have resolved to just move
packages to /usr/local/portage and quit wasting time on idiots with closed
minds.   I could go on and on, but at some point it's just a time-sink.
The default stance ought to be to leave packages in the tree, even if they
are broken. It's always easier to resurect a broken package that create an
ebuild from scratch, as much of the 'one-off-logic' is already delineated in
an old, broken ebuild.

We use to have the attic. But there is no easy to use feature now in github,
to the best of my knowledge, so the attic will soon be deprecated too.
Sunrise is on the chopping block too.

You want a package, and it works, my suggestions is to install it asap.
the copy all the files to /usr/local/portage and plan on maintaining it
yourself. Once you get quite a lot, it's time to figure out how to put
them in an overlay. Oh, Overlays, not officially sanction, will probably be
the next QA tree cleaning horse-feathered project to get the boot. It's
getting worse not better and it does not have to be like this.

SIMPLE. Before these devs destroy something, require them to put the
replacement system in place, including reasonable wiki docs and run it for 6
months or more to work out the bug, then eliminate things they do not like.
Oh, we can do that. We can leave alone codes and such that has worked or is
barely broken, or both with a new, documented replacement system before
remove things *I* do not like, as a dev.


No wonder the gentoo dev graveyard is so much bigger than those who are
still active.... Note:: I have been bitchen about java for years and years
and it is mostly *hated* by the gentoo dev community, for a large variety of
reason. They mostly just refuse to leave it alone or functional, because of
their perspective on it. Every other distro is at peace with java, but not
gentoo. It never has been. Many devs just hate java and do everything they
can to removed it from gentoo, imho.

my opinion (flame on!)
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 1:34 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> No wonder the gentoo dev graveyard is so much bigger than those who are
> still active....

You're probably conflating effect with cause.  It isn't like the
treecleaners arose and drove off all the devs.  (How could they?
There are only a few of them, and Gentoo policy does operate by
majority rules.)

It is more like Gentoo's popularity has waned somewhat and we don't
have as many devs as we used to, and treecleaners have been removing
packages.

Really all it takes to keep a package around is somebody standing up
to commit to take care of it, and they don't have to be a developer.
If nobody is willing to do that (and yes, you do need to follow QA
standards when doing so), then removal is just a matter of time.

> Every other distro is at peace with java, but not
> gentoo. It never has been. Many devs just hate java and do everything they
> can to removed it from gentoo, imho.

I won't disagree that most Gentoo devs tend to dislike Java.  Half the
reason we use github as much as we do is because the alternatives
mostly use Java and infra doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot
pole, and neither do any volunteers, really.

However, all it really takes to make Gentoo well-supported on Gentoo
is a dev or two willing to enthusiastically care for it.  Ultimately
Gentoo is what we make of it.

And of course you can maintain all this stuff on an overlay if you
prefer.  Nobody could even stop you from doing that.  I don't get why
you think there is some conspiracy out to get rid of overlays.  Many
Gentoo projects use them, most Gentoo devs use them, they're clearly
useful, and there is no real benefit to anybody to try to lock things
down so that only official overlays work.

Really the only goal here is to make sure the stuff that bears
Gentoo's name is secure and well-maintained and doesn't create burdens
on other projects.  Nobody really cares what you do on your own
overlay, because it doesn't have any effect on anything Gentoo does.

So, if even one person decided to put some well-maintained packages on
a java overlay then anybody who wants to use them could.

The irony here is that I tend to favor keeping unmaintained packages
around as long as possible.  I've certainly gotten into arguments with
treecleaners in the past.  However, there are sometimes lines that
packages end up on the wrong side of, and at that point either
somebody has to put in the work to fix them, or they need to be
removed.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:


> Really all it takes to keep a package around is somebody standing up
> to commit to take care of it, and they don't have to be a developer.
> If nobody is willing to do that (and yes, you do need to follow QA
> standards when doing so), then removal is just a matter of time.

That's not my reality. I volunteered to take over (4) cluster packages
from the soon-to-retire dev, jsbronder, on gentoo-dev. It was agreed to.
In another thread, I basically stated that I am not compatible with irc, so
some devs said oh, we now have a mail_list for proxy maint. Cool, right?
Well, I've subscribe to the list several times, tried to post directly
to the ML and via gmane::

ttp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.proxy-maint

to no avail.

(2/4) of the packages ganglia, are now listed with sys-cluster project, 
as is openmesh, which is OK and the last one ::
media-gfx/openmesh  is 'Maintainer:  None specified '


I was told to change the metadata.xml on the packages I wanted to claim,
but I cannot find an example of how a ordinary user can do this. If it
is a 'pull request' via github, somebody needs to document that somewhere as
it is the first step and a critical step.

There needs to be a way to ask questions, via a MailList on for proxy folks
so those questions and answer can be coallesced into a FAQ and eventually be
use to create formal gentoo wiki docs. The routine actions of a proxy-dev
(let's say the most common 20-40) things you need to know and do, needs to
be documented (in the gentoo wiki) including a cookbook on github.

So your answer is correct if you have dev-level skills but not accurate for
ordinary users. Note:: I do know how to code and use bash, but not github.
I think it is unreasonable not to have a github cookbook as it relates to
the routine things you need to do to take over a gentoo package.

> 
> > Every other distro is at peace with java, but not
> > gentoo. It never has been. Many devs just hate java and do everything they
> > can to removed it from gentoo, imho.
> 
> I won't disagree that most Gentoo devs tend to dislike Java.  Half the
> reason we use github as much as we do is because the alternatives
> mostly use Java and infra doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot
> pole, and neither do any volunteers, really.
> 
> However, all it really takes to make Gentoo well-supported on Gentoo
> is a dev or two willing to enthusiastically care for it.  Ultimately
> Gentoo is what we make of it.

Yea, well I've tried for years but, I'm a hack and a follower on java,
not a designer or somebody that works with it day in and day out.

I have a very important (probably one of the hottest codes in the entire
cluster space, broken as an ebuild in bgo:: apache/spark, because we 
lack java expertise......


> And of course you can maintain all this stuff on an overlay if you
> prefer.  Nobody could even stop you from doing that.  I don't get why
> you think there is some conspiracy out to get rid of overlays.  Many
> Gentoo projects use them, most Gentoo devs use them, they're clearly
> useful, and there is no real benefit to anybody to try to lock things
> down so that only official overlays work.
> 
> Really the only goal here is to make sure the stuff that bears
> Gentoo's name is secure and well-maintained and doesn't create burdens
> on other projects.  Nobody really cares what you do on your own
> overlay, because it doesn't have any effect on anything Gentoo does.

So a new overlay that I run, should be on github?  I need help with github,
it's a blocker of a lot of my gentoo work.


> So, if even one person decided to put some well-maintained packages on
> a java overlay then anybody who wants to use them could.

I routinely use the java-overlay

> The irony here is that I tend to favor keeping unmaintained packages
> around as long as possible.  I've certainly gotten into arguments with
> treecleaners in the past.  However, there are sometimes lines that
> packages end up on the wrong side of, and at that point either
> somebody has to put in the work to fix them, or they need to be
> removed.

Obviously we agree on leaving old codes around. If they are to be removed
from the tree, a mechanism for invididuals to resurrect them needs to be
complete, *FIRST*, imho.

I was very happy to see the Blueness 'slap-down' for their actions on
' monkeyd'. All those old 'C' codes that are not harming anything, are being
cleansed, cause the cleaners like other languages. They are not hurting a
thing and can easily be moved to unstable and left in the tree.

What the github replacement for the attic, and where do I find docs on how
to use it. github is a 'pita' for this old C hack..... Perhaps stop the tree
cleaning until there is a documented replacement (github centric)
for the attic?


James

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:


> I won't disagree that most Gentoo devs tend to dislike Java.  Half the
> reason we use github as much as we do is because the alternatives
> mostly use Java and infra doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot
> pole, and neither do any volunteers, really.

BGO 523412 	Apache-Sparc uses icedtea, 

just so you know. Apache Sparc is what makes many cluster codes run
orders of magnitude faster as it is a critical "in-memory" technology
developed by amp-labs.

I really do agree we need some knowledgable java coders to join the 
the java project, but all I can do is hack at java like any other PL
that I have not used enough. Still that, is no excuse for the orphaning
and soon to follow cleanse-removal of critical packages such as icedtea,
imho. Lack of robust support for java, holds gentoo back, more than
any other issue, imho. Java is everywhere and in just about all
corporations, governments and many big projects. Avoidance of java
characterizes gentoo to the point of ridicule, in my experiences... 

YMMV.

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 2:26 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> That's not my reality. I volunteered to take over (4) cluster packages
> from the soon-to-retire dev, jsbronder, on gentoo-dev. It was agreed to.
> In another thread, I basically stated that I am not compatible with irc, so
> some devs said oh, we now have a mail_list for proxy maint. Cool, right?
> Well, I've subscribe to the list several times, tried to post directly
> to the ML and via gmane::
>
> ttp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.proxy-maint
>
> to no avail.

Can you elaborate?  You posted and nobody replied?  You were never
able to post?  It isn't really clear what the issue is here...

>
> I was told to change the metadata.xml on the packages I wanted to claim,
> but I cannot find an example of how a ordinary user can do this. If it
> is a 'pull request' via github, somebody needs to document that somewhere as
> it is the first step and a critical step.
>

You'd need somebody else to commit it for you.  A pull request would
be a good way to go about it.

> There needs to be a way to ask questions, via a MailList on for proxy folks
> so those questions and answer can be coallesced into a FAQ and eventually be
> use to create formal gentoo wiki docs. The routine actions of a proxy-dev
> (let's say the most common 20-40) things you need to know and do, needs to
> be documented (in the gentoo wiki) including a cookbook on github.

That would be the mailing list you just mentioned.

And this:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Github

Of course, it could probably be improved.

>
> So a new overlay that I run, should be on github?  I need help with github,
> it's a blocker of a lot of my gentoo work.
>

Overlays can be hosted just about anywhere.  But, github is a good
place if you don't have something better, since it combines
distribution and version control.  You could just stick a directory on
a webserver anywhere and copy your /usr/local/portage over to it and
you'd be 98% of the way there.

>
> Obviously we agree on leaving old codes around. If they are to be removed
> from the tree, a mechanism for invididuals to resurrect them needs to be
> complete, *FIRST*, imho.
>

We can't just leave broken packages in the active tree until somebody
feels like improving documentation.

The situation would hardly be improved if 30% of the time when
somebody finds a package in the repo they type "emerge pkgname" and it
gives a build error.

If it isn't broken, it shouldn't be removed at all.  If it is broken,
it simply has to be removed.

>
> What the github replacement for the attic, and where do I find docs on how
> to use it. github is a 'pita' for this old C hack..... Perhaps stop the tree
> cleaning until there is a documented replacement (github centric)
> for the attic?
>

It is a bit of a pita with git, unfortunately.  You need to search the
history to find deleted files (there is no record in the present
commit of anything that doesn't exist in the present, so git has to
basically go back and check every past commit until it finds a file
you search for by name).  You need to clone the repo and then use
something like this:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7203515/git-how-to-search-for-a-deleted-file-in-the-project-commit-history

If somebody wanted to actually list all the deleted files in a
directory (which in CVS you'd do just by looking at the contents of
the Attic directory), you'd need to systematically diff every single
tree in git against its predecessor in history and make a note of
anytime a file disappears (that isn't quite as bad as it seems as you
can tell whether anything in a directory's children have changed just
by comparing the parents, so it isn't like you need to descend every
subdirectory in every commit).  I have a script that basically does
that using a map/reduce approach (it finds every unique version of
every file in the history by comparing every commit against its
predecessor).

Don't get me wrong - I get that git is a bit hard to get into.  It is
one of those things that you'll struggle with until you grok it.  I
will tell you that it is worth groking though.  Oh, and the standard
git command-line program has a horrible interface (in terms of
parameters, commands, etc).  It is inconsistent and confusing.
SVN/CVS were much simpler to understand in comparison, as they didn't
require some kind of paradigm shift to appreciate.

I can't say I have a handy reference to get started with.  This one
seems to start out good at least:
https://www.sbf5.com/~cduan/technical/git/

I will agree with his opening premise:
The conclusion I draw from this is that you can only really use Git if
you understand how Git works. Merely memorizing which commands you
should run at what times will work in the short run, but it’s only a
matter of time before you get stuck or, worse, break something.

Git is basically a really great data model with a command line
interface that Linus whipped out in 20min so that he could get back to
the kernel, with a bunch of commands that he basically tossed together
anytime something annoyed him (git-am, anyone?).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 14:00:29 -0400 Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 1:34 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > No wonder the gentoo dev graveyard is so much bigger than those who are
> > still active....
> 
> You're probably conflating effect with cause.  It isn't like the
> treecleaners arose and drove off all the devs.  (How could they?
> There are only a few of them, and Gentoo policy does operate by
> majority rules.)

I agree with James, the tree cleaners are on the verge of abusing
their power as well as the security team in PMASK-related issues.

A lot of packages are being removed just because upstream is AWOL
and package has no maintainer[1]. If package is not
seriously broken, there are _no valid reasons_ to remove it. If
homepage is not availed or was not updated for a few years, but
package still works fine, it should not be removed. "Packages are
still sitting in ~arch" is even less grounded reason: some people
do not use arch at all (including myself).

Of course such packages have higher probability of being broken in
the future, but as long as they work, they must remain in the tree.

Same applies for security team, some packages are being masked for
removal due to either minor security issues[2] or issues affecting
very limited number of application use cases[3].

I understand that people are probably irritated like "we don't want
more of this crap in the tree", but they may do more harm than good
with such approach.

> It is more like Gentoo's popularity has waned somewhat and we don't
> have as many devs as we used to

Cant agree with this: we have approximately the same number of devs
for several last years (actually it is increasing a bit from ~230
to ~240 with VCS write access) and is surely large than <200 about
5 years ago. And we have more contributors via git-powered
proxy-maintaining now. Of course we need more people engaged and by
all means new developers are welcomed.

But the real problem is in package complexity rise. Not only number
of packages is being increased, but they became more and more
complex, sometimes insane. Large packages often reinvent wheels by
creating their own build systems, tools, complex bootstrapping and
even bundling of their own compilers which can't be unbundled in a
sane way. Sometimes I have a feeling that software developers have
a global contest on the most crazy and b0rked build system.

Even Debian has similar issues these days (lack of the manpower to
support over complex stuff)[4].

[1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/30e5a50efa8d99d16ffc8dc2e0016557
[2] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/5bc0c48c37c89dba2893389d6f66a240
[3] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/317b71385ff0d853a6a11bac66a408ed
[4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2016/05/msg00134.html

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Andrew Savchenko]

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Hi,

On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 18:26:22 +0000 (UTC) James wrote:
[...]
> That's not my reality. I volunteered to take over (4) cluster packages
> from the soon-to-retire dev, jsbronder, on gentoo-dev. It was agreed to.
> In another thread, I basically stated that I am not compatible with irc, so
> some devs said oh, we now have a mail_list for proxy maint. Cool, right?
> Well, I've subscribe to the list several times, tried to post directly
> to the ML and via gmane::
> 
> ttp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.proxy-maint
> 
> to no avail.
> 
> (2/4) of the packages ganglia, are now listed with sys-cluster project, 
> as is openmesh, which is OK and the last one ::
> media-gfx/openmesh  is 'Maintainer:  None specified '

Is this e-mail you mentioned?
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e1d18d1bceecfe86879061bca4bfab16

If yes, please send me a list of packages you'd like to maintain.
I'll see how I can help. (I'm not on proxy-maint team, but nobody
denies me to help individual users with selected packages :))

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[James]

Andrew Savchenko <bircoph <at> gentoo.org> writes:

> <gmane required pruning>

> Is this e-mail you mentioned?
>
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e1d18d1bceecfe86879061bca4bfab16

Yep that's it. I volunteered because no body else did. I am flexible
on who does what, I'm just trying to help. I do like old C codes related to
clusters and distributed file systems. 

Munge, ganglia, ganglia-web have all been assigned to the sys-cluster project.
(Maintainer:  cluster@gentoo.org (Gentoo Cluster Project))

I have a minor bump on munge completed, but the download file has a few
issues, we can email about privately? bgo, or ?  I'm struggling with github.
Rich did point out a resource I need to read up on.

jsbronder is busy so that's why he released the packages in that list.
I need a wee bit of help time to time. I'm not much on irc. I prefer ML
or one on one questions and the ML on proxy-maintainers is new and quirky::
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.proxy-maint.

So for sure I'll maintain openmesh:: Maintainer:  None specified

I have preformed a survey of what those for need and sent it to jsbronder,
with no reply. If you want to fill in, I can send that email and questions
to you directly?  The survey for what those (4) packages need. I'm still
learning, but have about a dozen working and about a dozen with issues.
 How shall we communicate (-irc).



> If yes, please send me a list of packages you'd like to maintain.
> I'll see how I can help. (I'm not on proxy-maint team, but nobody
> denies me to help individual users with selected packages :))

If a dev wants to mentor a hack (like me) directly, there is no
need to use proxy-maint, if that is what you prefer. I know you are busy.
So, if you like, I can use proxy-maint via the ML, and you on more
sys-cluster related things. However you want to roll, if fine with me.

 media-gfx/openmesh [no project]
 sys-cluster/ganglia [cluster]
 sys-cluster/ganglia-web [cluster]
 sys-cluster/munge

Once I get these cleaned up and upgraded to eapi-6, I like to take
on :: sys-cluster/mpe2

> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko

I am still learning the tricks of ebuilds and struggle time to time. And my
email address migration has been drawn out for a variety of reasons. Gmane
won't (yet) allow me to post with the new (garftd) email address.....

thx,
James

[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[James]

Andrew Savchenko <bircoph <at> gentoo.org> writes:

> 
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 14:00:29 -0400 Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 1:34 PM, James <wireless <at> tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > No wonder the gentoo dev graveyard is so much bigger than those who are
> > > still active....
> > 
> > You're probably conflating effect with cause.  It isn't like the
> > treecleaners arose and drove off all the devs.  (How could they?
> > There are only a few of them, and Gentoo policy does operate by
> > majority rules.)
> 
> I agree with James, the tree cleaners are on the verge of abusing
> their power as well as the security team in PMASK-related issues.
> 
> A lot of packages are being removed just because upstream is AWOL
> and package has no maintainer[1]. If package is not
> seriously broken, there are _no valid reasons_ to remove it. If
> homepage is not availed or was not updated for a few years, but
> package still works fine, it should not be removed. "Packages are
> still sitting in ~arch" is even less grounded reason: some people
> do not use arch at all (including myself).
> 
> Of course such packages have higher probability of being broken in
> the future, but as long as they work, they must remain in the tree.
> 
> Same applies for security team, some packages are being masked for
> removal due to either minor security issues[2] or issues affecting
> very limited number of application use cases[3].
> 
> I understand that people are probably irritated like "we don't want
> more of this crap in the tree", but they may do more harm than good
> with such approach.

Since Sunrise is closing down, the attic is not being refreshed and there
is not current github based system like retreiving old codes from the attic,
I think something need to 'arranged' to effect the ability of users to 
retrieve old codes, and work on them, perhaps overlays.


> > It is more like Gentoo's popularity has waned somewhat and we don't
> > have as many devs as we used to
> 
> Cant agree with this: we have approximately the same number of devs
> for several last years (actually it is increasing a bit from ~230
> to ~240 with VCS write access) and is surely large than <200 about
> 5 years ago. And we have more contributors via git-powered
> proxy-maintaining now. Of course we need more people engaged and by
> all means new developers are welcomed.

Yes. Well, I'm still struggling with github.

> But the real problem is in package complexity rise. Not only number
> of packages is being increased, but they became more and more
> complex, sometimes insane. Large packages often reinvent wheels by
> creating their own build systems, tools, complex bootstrapping and
> even bundling of their own compilers which can't be unbundled in a
> sane way. Sometimes I have a feeling that software developers have
> a global contest on the most crazy and b0rked build system.

Very true. I've ask for a basic github (gentoo centric) wiki doc to 
help folks get accustomed to github. As an older hack it just a new
way of doing things and I'm struggling with those news ways and when to
use which one for github. I know there are often many ways to do things, 
but for folks at my level (strong-user learning the proxy-maint tricks,
there should be a few more docs and well defined ways to do things,
so the basics are routinely possible by just reading and looking at a few
examples. I have no problem digging through the latest version of the
dev-manual, or asking for help.


> Even Debian has similar issues these days (lack of the manpower to
> support over complex stuff)[4].

Agreed. Since my interest is running codes on clusters (that I control),
it's just a natural fit to try and help the sys-cluster team by hacking
on older, not critical codes as I learn.  sys-frabric and rDMA is also
a close project to clustering that I am interested in.

Also, working on minimal and embedded systems often has a coder 
use old tools as todays embedded linux systems often resemble systems
from years ago and those old CLI tools and C codes are very often usable.

I routinely go these purge lists and install the codes I want to keep
in /usr/local/portage. I really which there was an attic equivalent 
in github. That would ease a lot of pain, imho.




> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko

hth (and thanks Andrew)
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 00:13:10 +0000 (UTC) James wrote:
> Andrew Savchenko <bircoph <at> gentoo.org> writes:
> 
> > <gmane required pruning>
> 
> > Is this e-mail you mentioned?
> >
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/e1d18d1bceecfe86879061bca4bfab16
> 
> Yep that's it. I volunteered because no body else did. I am flexible
> on who does what, I'm just trying to help. I do like old C codes related to
> clusters and distributed file systems. 
> 
> Munge, ganglia, ganglia-web have all been assigned to the sys-cluster project.
> (Maintainer:  cluster@gentoo.org (Gentoo Cluster Project))
> 
> I have a minor bump on munge completed, but the download file has a few
> issues, we can email about privately? bgo, or ?  I'm struggling with github.
> Rich did point out a resource I need to read up on.

You can e-mail me on any issues privately, you may CC
cluster@gentoo.org if you wish on related issues (but this is not
necessary).

Frankly, I'm not fond of GitHub due to its closed nature; so I can
use it if there is no other way around. But since you are not happy
with GitHub too, just mail me patches :)

> jsbronder is busy so that's why he released the packages in that list.
> I need a wee bit of help time to time. I'm not much on irc. I prefer ML

same here :)

> or one on one questions and the ML on proxy-maintainers is new and quirky::
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.proxy-maint.
> 
> So for sure I'll maintain openmesh:: Maintainer:  None specified
> 
> I have preformed a survey of what those for need and sent it to jsbronder,
> with no reply. If you want to fill in, I can send that email and questions
> to you directly?

Yes, sure.

> The survey for what those (4) packages need. I'm still
> learning, but have about a dozen working and about a dozen with issues.
> How shall we communicate (-irc).

Both e-mail and irc should be fine.

> > If yes, please send me a list of packages you'd like to maintain.
> > I'll see how I can help. (I'm not on proxy-maint team, but nobody
> > denies me to help individual users with selected packages :))
> 
> If a dev wants to mentor a hack (like me) directly, there is no
> need to use proxy-maint, if that is what you prefer. I know you are busy.
> So, if you like, I can use proxy-maint via the ML, and you on more
> sys-cluster related things. However you want to roll, if fine with me.
> 
>  media-gfx/openmesh [no project]
>  sys-cluster/ganglia [cluster]
>  sys-cluster/ganglia-web [cluster]
>  sys-cluster/munge

OK, I'll add you as a proxied maintainer of these packages.
Proxy-maint team will be also added as a backup if I'll be
unavailable for a long time.

The question is: which your e-mail to I should use as a contact
for packages metadata? wireless or graftd? If the latter one, please
register it on Gentoo Bugzilla.

> Once I get these cleaned up and upgraded to eapi-6, I like to take
> on :: sys-cluster/mpe2

Let me know when you will be ready to handle this package.

Also if you would like to add some new packages to the tree (or
restore old ones), this also can be done.

> > Best regards,
> > Andrew Savchenko
> 
> I am still learning the tricks of ebuilds and struggle time to time.

None of us knows everything, it is normal to learn something new
here and there :)

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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[gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:

> The irony here is that I tend to favor keeping unmaintained packages
> around as long as possible.  I've certainly gotten into arguments with
> treecleaners in the past.  However, there are sometimes lines that
> packages end up on the wrong side of, and at that point either
> somebody has to put in the work to fix them, or they need to be
> removed.

So, what exactly *are* those red lines in the case of dev-java/icedtea?
As I wrote in my initial post in this thread, I can see no discussion of
this in the java mailing list.

I'm like James in that I can't use IRC for serious tech discussion
(although it is a fine replacement for talkd:)  I can grok github to
some degree, so if there is a github project I can follow please point
me to it.

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