From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1R8vPC-00038Y-2l for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:46:38 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB20E21C27B; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:46:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A0D21C272 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA131B4024 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:44:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -4.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.908 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=1.691, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4JH0EM4I4mps for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:44:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5331D1B4015 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:44:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R8vMw-0006SA-5Z for gentoo-user@gentoo.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:44:18 +0200 Received: from rrcs-71-40-157-251.se.biz.rr.com ([71.40.157.251]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:44:18 +0200 Received: from wireless by rrcs-71-40-157-251.se.biz.rr.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:44:18 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org From: James Subject: [gentoo-user] Re: Slightly OT but interesting nonetheless... Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:44:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <4E80D466.7010804@coolmail.se> <1545956.0FMtZHhPAZ@localhost> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 71.40.157.251 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110923 Firefox/6.0.2 SeaMonkey/2.3.3) X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: 09086c25a42c7a40fca5b7cdbccff66e Volker Armin Hemmann googlemail.com> writes: > > > Breaking the user experience in order to ???fix??? something > > > is a totally broken concept; you cannot do it. > > That's hilarious. > > The Linux developers are _constantly_ changing APIs in ways that break > > existing device driver code. There are repeatedly wholesale > > re-designs of some APIs that happen between minor versions of a > > supposedly "stable" kernel. > which is seriously not a problem and does not matter in the slightest. Some perspective may ease the pain here. Folks on this list are focused on *their personal pain*. Welcome to unix/bsd/linux. (too many decades now) No pain, no gain. Gui experiences are what consumers see, feel and purchase; so Volker is very right here. The kernel gyrations are all really about something much more important. *MONEY* Just think about it, on this list in the last few months, we have discussed how the stock market runs on linux, Some folks use GPU + CPU for very advanced things, Commercial distros like Apple's offering are making billions. Android. (on and on). The point is the Linux Kernel is the battle ground for software deployment, particularly firmware. An infinite number of "user experiences" can be packaged and sold on top of the Linux kernel. Here's another one: Carrier Grade Linux (runs most of the worlds communications systems, including most carrier grade cisco gear. Most legacy comm system at some point now, get boosted on top of private IP networks run by the carriers (or military). Cisco recommends embedded linux on their carrier switches and IOS is an unmanaged *hacked* pig, with little future. The "gymnastics" about the kernel and drivers are the public manifestation of a much deeper battle for embedded systems supremacy using linux. Wind River, unquestionable the largest commercial offering of embedded solutions has products based on both bsd and linux kernels. In "ka-hoots" with chip vendors they routinely offer "enhanced" drivers to companies that build products, with features never to found in the linux published sources. Binaries are available and yet clearly violate the spirit of the whole (whore) open source movement. WHY? *MONEY*. Governments and miltaries also feed at this trough. Linus would have his tits slapped together, if he every interfered with these industries. He in only in charge of the gyrations.... Tons of products still use embedded linux for the 2.4 kernel series. They opt out of the 2.6 gyrations. Many companies put forward their best technologies, in order to gain "mind-share" in the kernel wars. Companies build very large data base systems, using the latest technologies that work with the linux kernel. Often these technologies only appear for the masses, years after companies use a "in house" version as the key pillar for commercial success (MONEY). Take for example the company that does backups for one of the worlds largest and most complicated database needs. The good old US ARMY. They use linux, the latest open source databases and the newest file systems like CEPHS, yet they are years away from public consumption. Well financed companies are buying up the young (phd) experts whom have hack out versions and code that makes CEPH usable. Billions of dollars are being made and it's a real threat to Oracle. Customizations of low level drivers in the latest linux kernel are the key, and much of that work will not even be introduced to the linux kernel community..........TOO MUCH MONEY AT STAKE! (and you wonder why Oracle hates linux?) The linux kernel is a malaise of brilliant folks that are key components in thousands of billion dollar schemes for a wide variety of embedded and distributed products (thinks corporation profits). What amazes me if that we get any real progress on the kernel at all. Only enough to keep technical folks in love with linux, but not disturb the billion dollar industries, all jocking for position around the kernel and drivers. So when things are murky, just realize there is most likely several divergent financial interests jocking for position behind those public gyrations..... > They NEVER change user-space APIs and ABIs in incompatible ways. THAT is > important. > > We have to touch our NetBSD and FreeBSD drivers maybe once every 3-4 > > years. > and look how much devices they drive - because nobody has to send their > drivers upstream, nobody does. Because embedded BSD, although still viable, does not have mindshare any more. Most do not care. The battle it to spin your version of embedded linux, and sell it to the product manufacturers. > > Often our Linux drivers have to be updated every 3-4 _months_ > > to keep up with changes in the kernel that break things. > which is your own fucking fault. > Get your drivers into the kernel. Problem solved. Volker is right, again. However, this is where the true fun begins, particularly when an innovative startup looks to gain market share in an area where other have made lots of money. Many drivers, not thought to be strategic, have little issue. Some vendors, Motorola comes to mind, put one driver into the kernel and offer another quietly through vendors or directly. Many Chipsets have always had "secret hardware features" and the ability to use those features is still a well guarded secret and costs tons of money and is often limited to who can use those chipsets. There are some NDA, if you violate, your ass is dead. Linus a "showboat" and making some serious cash, keeping the public focused on linux (mindshare) and playing as puppet as the big boys joust behind the scenes. From a modeling point of view, the gyrations of the linux kernel, chipset's hidden features and the device driver delusions are very much akin to what is going on in the hacker (interloper) world. The hilarious twist is the kernel game is controlled by globalist. Hacking is everybody's economic playground. Why Greg even offers to develop drivers free for folks, yet hardly any corporations take him up on this generous offer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Kroah-Hartman http://kerneltrap.org/node/7636 Common it's all about *MONEY* The rest is just smoke, mirrors and BULLSHIT.... hth, James