[gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Greets, gentoo-users,
I hope not to bring up some boring ricer-topic ;-)

I am thinking of getting one of those shiny new SSDs for my main
workstation. Not that I really *need* it, my box is performing well, I
admit that I am curious and somehow childish ... some way of getting
myself a christmas present or something like that ...

anyway

Although I read of Intel's various firmware-problems with their SSDs, I
tend to buy one of their 80GB X25-M G2 Postville SSDs.

I definitely *know* that I will shake my head a few months later at how
I could spend that much money for those few and slow gigs of ssd ... but
... (think 100$ for 128MB usb-stick ... you know ...)

I think of using that ssd for my gentoo-os-partition(s) and I wonder if
one of you is already doing that. And I would like to hear of any
problems/blockers/sensations this brings.

Thanks for any infos, I'd be happy to hear whatever your experience is ...

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Donnerstag 19 November 2009, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> Greets, gentoo-users,
> I hope not to bring up some boring ricer-topic ;-)
> 
> I am thinking of getting one of those shiny new SSDs for my main
> workstation. Not that I really *need* it, my box is performing well, I
> admit that I am curious and somehow childish ... some way of getting
> myself a christmas present or something like that ...
> 
> anyway
> 
> Although I read of Intel's various firmware-problems with their SSDs, I
> tend to buy one of their 80GB X25-M G2 Postville SSDs.
> 
> I definitely *know* that I will shake my head a few months later at how
> I could spend that much money for those few and slow gigs of ssd ... but
> ... (think 100$ for 128MB usb-stick ... you know ...)
> 
> I think of using that ssd for my gentoo-os-partition(s) and I wonder if
> one of you is already doing that. And I would like to hear of any
> problems/blockers/sensations this brings.
> 
> Thanks for any infos, I'd be happy to hear whatever your experience is ...
> 
> Stefan
> 

since ssds don't like write/erase cycles you should only put your system on 
the ssd. Everything else, PORTDIR, PKGDIR, /var, /tmp, /usr/tmp and /usr/src 
should be on a harddisk.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Volker Armin Hemmann schrieb:

> since ssds don't like write/erase cycles you should only put your system on 
> the ssd. Everything else, PORTDIR, PKGDIR, /var, /tmp, /usr/tmp and /usr/src 
> should be on a harddisk.

Thanks for the hint ...

[gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[James]

Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin <at> googlemail.com> writes:


> since ssds don't like write/erase cycles you should only put your system on 
> the ssd. Everything else, PORTDIR, PKGDIR, /var, /tmp, /usr/tmp and /usr/src 
> should be on a harddisk.


I'd be curious to see a complete fstab with an SSD; anyone?


James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 8:38 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin <at> googlemail.com> writes:
>
>
>> since ssds don't like write/erase cycles you should only put your system on
>> the ssd. Everything else, PORTDIR, PKGDIR, /var, /tmp, /usr/tmp and /usr/src
>> should be on a harddisk.
>
>
> I'd be curious to see a complete fstab with an SSD; anyone?

This page lists some, I have no idea if they are good suggestions or not:

http://www.mydellmini.com/forum/dell-mini-9-hardware-upgrades/6741-tips-tweaking-solid-state-drive-performance-linux.html

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 20.11.2009 00:05, schrieb Volker Armin Hemmann:

> since ssds don't like write/erase cycles you should only put your system on 
> the ssd. Everything else, PORTDIR, PKGDIR, /var, /tmp, /usr/tmp and /usr/src 
> should be on a harddisk.

What do you think about /home ? ssd or hdd ?

I tend to ssd as my thunderbird-3-profile-dir is in there as well and
might profit much of the local caching/indexin of my imap-dirs ...

Looking forward to getting my shiny new ssd, my dealer informed me that
he will send it tomorrow ;-)

Stefan

[gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Holger Hoffstaette]

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:47:37 +0100, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:

> Although I read of Intel's various firmware-problems with their SSDs, I
> tend to buy one of their 80GB X25-M G2 Postville SSDs.

I have the older 80MB (G1) and a new 160GB G2 for another machine just
arrived. The fixed TRIM-enabled firmware for the G2 should reappear soon
as well. Btw the problem with the previous version mostly affected Windows7.

> I definitely *know* that I will shake my head a few months later at how I

No you won't.

> I think of using that ssd for my gentoo-os-partition(s) and I wonder if
> one of you is already doing that. And I would like to hear of any
> problems/blockers/sensations this brings.

Been using one in my day-to-day workstation under both Windows and Gentoo
(with ext4). After 5 minutes you will fight anyone who would try to take
it away again to the death.

-h

[gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Remy Blank]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 268 bytes --]

Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> After 5 minutes you will fight anyone who would try to take
> it away again to the death.

Seconded. I moved a normal HD install to a 160GB G2, and, well, you just
don't imagine how much your day-to-day work is IO bound.

-- Remy


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Holger Hoffstaette schrieb:

> Been using one in my day-to-day workstation under both Windows and Gentoo
> (with ext4). After 5 minutes you will fight anyone who would try to take
> it away again to the death.

Phew ;-) hehe ... I am really getting curious ...

S

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Holger Hoffstaette schrieb:

> Been using one in my day-to-day workstation under both Windows and Gentoo
> (with ext4).

Did you use any non-default settings when formatting?

As Intel-SSDs are back on stock here I have ordered one and I am
starting to plan how to reorganize things.

I read something of setting stripe-width=128 to fit the erase block size
of 512 kB ... dunno if that makes sense.

Stefan

[gentoo-user] Re: Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Holger Hoffstaette]

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:29:56 +0100, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:

> Holger Hoffstaette schrieb:
> 
>> Been using one in my day-to-day workstation under both Windows and
>> Gentoo (with ext4).
> 
> Did you use any non-default settings when formatting?

No.

> As Intel-SSDs are back on stock here I have ordered one and I am starting
> to plan how to reorganize things.
> 
> I read something of setting stripe-width=128 to fit the erase block size
> of 512 kB ... dunno if that makes sense.

Is this for a RAID? I'll gladly admit to complete lack of practical
experience wrt. stripe sizes and such. :)
All I know is that two days ago I flashed my 160GB G2 with the
finally-no-longer-bricking-Windows and TRIM-enabling firmware, and that it
"just works".
You could also try btrfs with 2.6.32, if you're adventurous enough :)
(works fine here too)

have fun
Holger

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Holger Hoffstaette schrieb:

>> I read something of setting stripe-width=128 to fit the erase block size
>> of 512 kB ... dunno if that makes sense.
> 
> Is this for a RAID? I'll gladly admit to complete lack of practical
> experience wrt. stripe sizes and such. :)

I simply read stuff like

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531

http://anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631

and especially

http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/

It's a moving target here, sure ...

As I know myself I will simply fiddle around with the settings and
re-copy my root-fs several times before deciding for one particular setup.

I will do some dualboot-scenario, my current hdd-raid1-based root on one
hand and the new ssd-based root on the other, both included in my
regular backups, sure.

> All I know is that two days ago I flashed my 160GB G2 with the
> finally-no-longer-bricking-Windows and TRIM-enabling firmware, and that it
> "just works".

Fine. Does ext4 send TRIM already? AFAI understand the needed changes in
libata are up to come with 2.6.33, correct?

> You could also try btrfs with 2.6.32, if you're adventurous enough :)
> (works fine here too)

Hmm, dunno. That's quite bleeding-edge and beta ... this machine is my
main workhorse that helps me to earn money so I don't want to risk too
much there. Maybe on a third copy of root-fs ;-)

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[App Des]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1726 bytes --]

I think that buying an SSD right now is not worth it. If you are going to
buy one, get the intel G2 ones, but in my opinion it is always better to
first max out your RAM in your PC. After all the SSD is going to help when
you first boot your PC or open a program. After that everything is cached in
RAM and there will be no speed difference. Only in the rare case that you
use so many programs (that don't fit in cache) and compile things everyday
(which messes up the cache) you are going to need it.

Also you don't need to mess with many fstab/scheduler settings, it is not
worth it imo. Just add "noatime" to your favorite file system and you are
good to go.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:47 AM, Stefan G. Weichinger <lists@xunil.at>wrote:

>
> Greets, gentoo-users,
> I hope not to bring up some boring ricer-topic ;-)
>
> I am thinking of getting one of those shiny new SSDs for my main
> workstation. Not that I really *need* it, my box is performing well, I
> admit that I am curious and somehow childish ... some way of getting
> myself a christmas present or something like that ...
>
> anyway
>
> Although I read of Intel's various firmware-problems with their SSDs, I
> tend to buy one of their 80GB X25-M G2 Postville SSDs.
>
> I definitely *know* that I will shake my head a few months later at how
> I could spend that much money for those few and slow gigs of ssd ... but
> ... (think 100$ for 128MB usb-stick ... you know ...)
>
> I think of using that ssd for my gentoo-os-partition(s) and I wonder if
> one of you is already doing that. And I would like to hear of any
> problems/blockers/sensations this brings.
>
> Thanks for any infos, I'd be happy to hear whatever your experience is ...
>
> Stefan
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2133 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 19.11.2009 23:47, schrieb Stefan G. Weichinger:

> I am thinking of getting one of those shiny new SSDs for my main
> workstation.

A status quo followup:

Received my Intel Postville 80G G2 today.

Copied my gentoo-root-fs to it (mkfs-ext4, then rsync), and my /home as
well.

It boots and works OK but I have to admit that I am not as impressed as
I had imagined to be.

The relevant mounts (sdc=ssd, sda & sdb: SATA-hdds, building parts of
the LVM-vgs):

# mount
rootfs on / type rootfs (rw)
/dev/sdc1 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime,nodiratime,barrier=1,data=ordered)
proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime)
rc-svcdir on /lib64/rc/init.d type tmpfs
(rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=1024k,mode=755)
sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs
(rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
udev on /dev type devtmpfs
(rw,nosuid,relatime,size=10240k,nr_inodes=1014583)
devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,gid=5,mode=620)
shm on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime)
tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,mode=1777)
none on /mnt/ramportage type tmpfs (rw,nr_inodes=1M,size=4000m,mode=1777)
/dev/mapper/ssd-home on /home type ext4 (rw,noatime)
/dev/mapper/VG02-var on /var type ext4 (rw,noatime)
/dev/mapper/noraid-src on /usr/src type xfs (rw,noatime)
/dev/mapper/noraid-portage on /usr/portage type ext4 (rw,noatime)
usbfs on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,devmode=0664,devgid=85)
rpc_pipefs on /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs type rpc_pipefs (rw)
nfsd on /proc/fs/nfsd type nfsd (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev)


I was too curious at first to have a look for firmware so I did the
firmware-update from 02HA to 02HD *after* having copied my root-fs.

Could that matter? I am not sure.

I am also not so sure about those ext4-parameters.

Could anyone comment?

Thanks a lot, Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stroller]

On 18 Dec 2009, at 22:31, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> ...
> Received my Intel Postville 80G G2 today.
> ...
> It boots and works OK but I have to admit that I am not as impressed  
> as
> I had imagined to be.
> ...
> Could anyone comment?

Might it help if you said WHY you're unimpressed?

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 19.12.2009 09:08, schrieb Stroller:

>> Could anyone comment?
> 
> Might it help if you said WHY you're unimpressed?

might be ;-)

It seems as if my system doesn't benefit that much:

With 8 gigs of RAM, suspend-to-ram, preload and only a handful of rather
lightweight binaries in regular use this system is already pretty fast
with hdds only.

I expected more WOW in terms of overall speed ...

OK, I have to admit that it boots way faster, yup.

Around under 25 secs from grub to gdm-login on ssd compared to 45-50
secs on hdds.

I just moved /var to ssd as well so that apart from the larger data-LVs
the whole gentoo-os runs from ssd now. Just to check ...

The difference might be more noticeable compared to slower hdds as in
notebooks (might give it a try in my thinkpad as well) and with apps
doing more i/o.

My daily apps are only a few:

thunderbird, opera, firefox, gnome-terminal, openoffice, acrobat reader,
skype, gwibber ... vmware-server ... and the usual utilities like gthumb
and stuff ... so there are no heavyweights afai see.

All of these get cached pretty soon (I think) so that the overall
experience is rather fast with the hdd-based-raid1-root-fs as well.

Maybe I just have to use it for a while and then boot back from hdds to
really get the picture :-)

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 19 December 2009 12:19:05 Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> Am 19.12.2009 09:08, schrieb Stroller:
> >> Could anyone comment?
> >
> > Might it help if you said WHY you're unimpressed?
> 
> might be ;-)
> 
> It seems as if my system doesn't benefit that much:
> 
> With 8 gigs of RAM, suspend-to-ram, preload and only a handful of rather
> lightweight binaries in regular use this system is already pretty fast
> with hdds only.
> 
> I expected more WOW in terms of overall speed ...

SSDs are not a magic bullet, it's unlikely they will give you a killer 
performance improvement that makes you go "WOW!!!"

SSDs suck at random writes.
Typical usage scenario on a workstation is lots of random writes compared to 
relatively few random reads - reads tend not to be all that random as you 
re-read the same thing often and it gets cached.

Intel SSDs are far superior at random writes than any other SSD out there but 
it's still nowhere near as optimised as spinning drives, and kernels by and 
large are still optimised for spinning drives too.

This may account for your overall feeling of under-whelmedness why still 
seeing a significant boot-time speed up. You also have enough RAM so that 
almost an entire typical workstation session could fit in RAM and seldom touch 
the disk especially with a large interval between disk syncs

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 20.12.2009 08:14, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On Saturday 19 December 2009 12:19:05 Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
>> I expected more WOW in terms of overall speed ...
> 
> SSDs are not a magic bullet, it's unlikely they will give you a
> killer performance improvement that makes you go "WOW!!!"

sad to hear ;-)

> SSDs suck at random writes. Typical usage scenario on a workstation
> is lots of random writes compared to relatively few random reads -
> reads tend not to be all that random as you re-read the same thing
> often and it gets cached.
> 
> Intel SSDs are far superior at random writes than any other SSD out
> there but it's still nowhere near as optimised as spinning drives,
> and kernels by and large are still optimised for spinning drives
> too.

Acknowledged. Just for reference, I switched over to the
noop-IO-scheduler and checked that /sys/block/sdX/queue/rotational is
detected/set correctly at value 0 for the ssd. These are two ssd-related
modifications I know of ...

> This may account for your overall feeling of under-whelmedness why
> still seeing a significant boot-time speed up. You also have enough
> RAM so that almost an entire typical workstation session could fit in
> RAM and seldom touch the disk especially with a large interval
> between disk syncs

Yes, you are right. Thanks.

What I still wonder:

* I copied my gentoo over while the ssd still was on firmware 02HA, I
upgraded to 02HD (latest Intel-firmware for the X25-M G2) with the os
already on the drive. Does that somehow make a difference to data
written *after* the upgrade? I just wonder if I should somehow restart
from scratch with the new firmware, just to "do it right" or "get the
optimum".

* The new firmware supports TRIM. As far as I understand, the
block-layer in the linux kernel 2.6.32 does not yet support it,
correct? Any way to use that command with my current 2.6.32? ext4
supports it (I use ext4 for the root-partition) but I am not sure if
that is enough when libata does not?

When I google I get different results, some saying the kernel supports
TRIM since 2.6.28 ...

Hmm, good info here:

http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7272

says:

> So at the moment, ext4 informs the block layer that blocks that
> belong to deleted files can be discard, so once TRIM-capable SSD’s
> become available, and the Linux block layer actually sends the TRIM
> command to the hard drives, everything will be all set to go.

Does anyone have more recent info?

Thanks, best greetings, have some peaceful days ...

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 25.12.2009 11:37, schrieb Stefan G. Weichinger:

> What I still wonder:
> 
> * I copied my gentoo over while the ssd still was on firmware 02HA, I
> upgraded to 02HD (latest Intel-firmware for the X25-M G2) with the os
> already on the drive. Does that somehow make a difference to data
> written *after* the upgrade? I just wonder if I should somehow restart
> from scratch with the new firmware, just to "do it right" or "get the
> optimum".

> http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7272
> 
> says:
> 
>> So at the moment, ext4 informs the block layer that blocks that
>> belong to deleted files can be discard, so once TRIM-capable SSD’s
>> become available, and the Linux block layer actually sends the TRIM
>> command to the hard drives, everything will be all set to go.

Another follow-up-myself, just to document my tests:

Repartitioned the ssd today, as Ted Ts'o describes at:

http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/

Ok, this might not be necessary/helpful anymore for the Intel X25-M G2
... but anyway, I had to get rid of those unnecessary XP-partitions
anyway ;-)

Wanted to do a secure erase with hdderase (on the ultimate boot cd),
didn't detect my ssd even with AHCI off in bios and legacy mode ... also
"hdparm --security-erase" didn't work. I decided to skip that and wait
for TRIM in 2.6.33 or later.

I wonder if /var and /home should be on the ssd or not. It is very nice
to have a silent machine ... but maybe this does more harm than good.

So far the ssd is nice to have. I am looking forward to try it inside my
thinkpad someday ...

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo on ssds? intel anyone?

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 04.01.2010 21:50, schrieb Stefan G. Weichinger:

> I wonder if /var and /home should be on the ssd or not. It is very nice
> to have a silent machine ... but maybe this does more harm than good.

I had repeated I/O-errors while having /home on the ssd, with kernel
2.6.32-tuxonice and 2.6.32-tuxonice-r1 ... now I use my hdd-based /home
again and the errors are gone (so far, maybe the re-occur after sending
this mail, you know ...).

The home-related I/O-errors still happened after poweroff, the "fsck -f"
showed no errors.

example from /var/log/messages:

Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: exception Emask 0x10 SAct 0x20
SErr 0x400100 action 0x6 frozen
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: irq_stat 0x08000000, interface
fatal error
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: SError: { UnrecovData Handshk }
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: failed command: WRITE FPDMA QUEUED
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: cmd
61/08:28:38:d6:79/00:00:01:00:00/40 tag 5 ncq 4096 out
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: res 40/00:2c:38:d6:79/00:00:01:00:00/40
Emask 0x10 (ATA bus error)
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: status: { DRDY }
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: hard resetting link
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: SATA link up 3.0 Gbps (SStatus 123
SControl 300)
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: configured for UDMA/133
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: EH complete
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: exception Emask 0x10 SAct
0x40000000 SErr 0x400100 action 0x6 frozen
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: irq_stat 0x08000000, interface
fatal error
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: SError: { UnrecovData Handshk }
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: failed command: WRITE FPDMA QUEUED
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: cmd
61/d0:f0:b0:d3:d9/01:00:02:00:00/40 tag 30 ncq 237568 out
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: res 40/00:f4:b0:d3:d9/00:00:02:00:00/40
Emask 0x10 (ATA bus error)
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: status: { DRDY }
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: hard resetting link
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: SATA link up 3.0 Gbps (SStatus 123
SControl 300)
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5.00: configured for UDMA/133
Jan 18 18:49:24 hiro kernel: ata5: EH complete

--

My root-fs is still on the ssd, root-fs AND home-fs are ext4 ...
Just for the records and discussion ...

Stefan