[gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

And we need MOAR devs

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo/Staffing_Needs

so awesome! srsly!

What many people don't seem to get is: you don't need to be a commit
monkey doing your 100+ commits per week.
Our minimum rate of commits is pretty low before you actually are forced
to retire.

Better have a lot of devs each one focussing on a few packages than
having few devs working on the entire tree and messing up things randomly.

It's not that much work, just some regular attention. You want to join!

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Daniel Campbell]

On 07/30/2013 01:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
> And we need MOAR devs
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo/Staffing_Needs
> 
> so awesome! srsly!
> 
> What many people don't seem to get is: you don't need to be a commit
> monkey doing your 100+ commits per week.
> Our minimum rate of commits is pretty low before you actually are forced
> to retire.
> 
> Better have a lot of devs each one focussing on a few packages than
> having few devs working on the entire tree and messing up things randomly.
> 
> It's not that much work, just some regular attention. You want to join!
> 

I was interested in becoming a dev for a little while, but the testing
and what looks to be prolonged process kinda put me off of the idea. It
just seems like a lot of bureaucratic work. Perhaps my impression is
wrong, though...

Which projects are most in need of developers or maintainers? I wouldn't
mind learning a bit more about package maintenance, portage, and ebuilds...

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/30/2013 02:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
> And we need MOAR devs
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo/Staffing_Needs
> 
> so awesome! srsly!
> 
> What many people don't seem to get is: you don't need to be a commit
> monkey doing your 100+ commits per week.
> Our minimum rate of commits is pretty low before you actually are forced
> to retire.
> 
> Better have a lot of devs each one focussing on a few packages than
> having few devs working on the entire tree and messing up things randomly.
> 
> It's not that much work, just some regular attention. You want to join!
> 

(old rant)

I would like to become a developer. I already proxy maintain a few
packages, and have a few more in sunrise that I could take care of. I
could also triage bugs in my spare time.

But, there's no process to do so.

I want to become a dev, what's my next step? There is none. Help out,
and maybe someone will notice you? Ok, I'm on it. Been doing it for
years, and I know several other people in the same situation. It doesn't
work, and recruitment numbers are plummeting.

There needs to be an explicit, documented process. And someone devoted
full-time to mentoring new recruits. I can think of no better long-term
investment of the foundation's money.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Bruce Hill]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 07:48:19PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 07/30/2013 02:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
> > And we need MOAR devs
> > 
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo/Staffing_Needs
> > 
> > so awesome! srsly!
> > 
> > What many people don't seem to get is: you don't need to be a commit
> > monkey doing your 100+ commits per week.
> > Our minimum rate of commits is pretty low before you actually are forced
> > to retire.
> > 
> > Better have a lot of devs each one focussing on a few packages than
> > having few devs working on the entire tree and messing up things randomly.
> > 
> > It's not that much work, just some regular attention. You want to join!
> > 
> 
> (old rant)
> 
> I would like to become a developer. I already proxy maintain a few
> packages, and have a few more in sunrise that I could take care of. I
> could also triage bugs in my spare time.
> 
> But, there's no process to do so.
> 
> I want to become a dev, what's my next step? There is none. Help out,
> and maybe someone will notice you? Ok, I'm on it. Been doing it for
> years, and I know several other people in the same situation. It doesn't
> work, and recruitment numbers are plummeting.
> 
> There needs to be an explicit, documented process. And someone devoted
> full-time to mentoring new recruits. I can think of no better long-term
> investment of the foundation's money.

Let me second this post. Some months ago after much prodding by someone high
up in the Gentoo organization, I tried to take the $PATH. Michael's post above
is, IMO, _very_ kind considering what I went through. In the middle of my
_tests_ the whole system broke down.

For 7 years before coming to Gentoo I was with Slackware. Never wanting any
public recognition, most of my patches just went straight to the #2 guy. Pat
did sometimes name me in ChangeLogs, but mostly I was allowed to contribute in
the background.

Gentoo could use an overhaul, especially in the area of communication skills,
_most_ especially for those devs whose first language is _not_ English.

Just my 2c ... no time atm anyway ... RL demands me to make $ for bills.

Don't take my quick, casual comments as criticism of Gentoo as a GNU/Linux
distro. For those who have some knowledge, it's far and above the best! But
the foundation needs to take a look into revamping this area.

Cheers,
Bruce
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.                                                                                                                                                          
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?                                                                                                                                                                                        
A: Top-posting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Palimaka]

On 31/07/2013 07:32, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> I was interested in becoming a dev for a little while, but the testing
> and what looks to be prolonged process kinda put me off of the idea. It
> just seems like a lot of bureaucratic work. Perhaps my impression is
> wrong, though...
You are right that the process is not necessarily ideal, but it all we 
currently have.
Some improvements have been happening lately, though. For example, the 
new recruiting webapp can make handling the quizzes easier, and there 
have been efforts to increase the numbers of people who can do the final 
recruitment process.

>
> Which projects are most in need of developers or maintainers? I wouldn't
> mind learning a bit more about package maintenance, portage, and ebuilds...
You might have better luck finding an area that interests you first, and 
going from there.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[András Csányi]

On 30 July 2013 23:32, Daniel Campbell <lists@sporkbox.us> wrote:
>
> I was interested in becoming a dev for a little while, but the testing
> and what looks to be prolonged process kinda put me off of the idea. It
> just seems like a lot of bureaucratic work. Perhaps my impression is
> wrong, though...

As a tester - not AT at Gentoo - say that you are right. In the
development job that activity is that which should/must be well
documented or communicated to provide solid and trustworthy
information. Nowadays, I experience that the line between developers
and tester are getting thinner and thinner and there are development
methods, such as DAD, which support this process.

On the other hand, testing activity is the safety belt which keep the
quality on a certain level which produces the tribute of the users
which will be the fuel for the further job.

-- 
--  Csanyi Andras (Sayusi Ando)  -- http://sayusi.hu --
http://facebook.com/andras.csanyi
--  ""Trust in God and keep your gunpowder dry!" - Cromwell

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Palimaka]

On 31/07/2013 09:48, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> I want to become a dev, what's my next step? There is none. Help out,
> and maybe someone will notice you? Ok, I'm on it. Been doing it for
> years, and I know several other people in the same situation. It doesn't
> work, and recruitment numbers are plummeting.
>
> There needs to be an explicit, documented process.
I agree, it's not really concrete.

Which projects/areas are you usually involved in?

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Tanstaafl]

On 2013-07-30 5:32 PM, Daniel Campbell <lists@sporkbox.us> wrote:
> Which projects are most in need of developers or maintainers? I wouldn't
> mind learning a bit more about package maintenance, portage, and ebuilds...

One  that I would *love* to see updated is sogo, which is in the gnustep 
overlay....

http://www.sogo.nu

Very fast/lightweight (one server can handle thousands of users) 
fullblown Exchange Server replacement that fully supports 
Thunderbird+Lightning, as well as Outlook (NATIVE support, no MAPI 
plugin required, it actually thinks it is talking to an Exchange 
Server), and pretty much every mobile client out there, including Apple 
iCal/iPhone, Blackberry & Windows Mobile (requires the Funambol SOGo 
Connector), and Android...

The latest ebuild available is 1.2.1 which is really old - the current 
version of SOGo is 2.0.7, and has *massive* improvements over the 1.x 
series...

Also - it is also - or will be, I don't see anything on the current 
website yet - capable of acting as a full blown Active Directory Server 
with integration of Samba4 and Openchange, so, hopefully in the 
foreseeable future, SOGo will be able to fully replace an AD Domain 
*and* Exchange Server...

My plan is to get this installed in the next few weeks (I have paid 
support from Inverse for this), and if/when the time comes to upgrade my 
2008R2 domain controllers, I'll be migrating to SOGo AD Domain 
controllers instead. I figure by that time (a few years or so), SOGo 
will be well ready for prime time.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 07/30/2013 11:32 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 07/30/2013 01:16 PM, hasufell wrote:
>> And we need MOAR devs
>>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Gentoo/Staffing_Needs
>>
>> so awesome! srsly!
>>
>> What many people don't seem to get is: you don't need to be a commit
>> monkey doing your 100+ commits per week.
>> Our minimum rate of commits is pretty low before you actually are forced
>> to retire.
>>
>> Better have a lot of devs each one focussing on a few packages than
>> having few devs working on the entire tree and messing up things randomly.
>>
>> It's not that much work, just some regular attention. You want to join!
>>
> 
> I was interested in becoming a dev for a little while, but the testing
> and what looks to be prolonged process kinda put me off of the idea. It
> just seems like a lot of bureaucratic work. Perhaps my impression is
> wrong, though...

Yes, your impression is wrong.

You can:

a) file bugs
b) attach your ebuilds to bug reports (either demanding inclusion or
fixing a bug, etc...)
c) proxy-maintain a package (say in the bug report that you are willing
to do that)
d) start contributing to sunrise (join #gentoo-sunrise) and get noticed
or participate in #gentoo-dev-help
e) just be bold and tell us we need you; it's good if you already have
an overlay and some experience or worked on bugzilla ebuilds a lot

> 
> Which projects are most in need of developers or maintainers? I wouldn't
> mind learning a bit more about package maintenance, portage, and ebuilds...
> 
> 

an incomplete list of herds needing help from my own perspective:

- perl herd is officially asking for help
- lang-misc consists of _one_ dev (we can also need help with packages
like dev-lang/elixir, dev-lang/fpc and dev-lang/dmd, dmd not being in
the tree yet for that very reason)
- science herd is unable to import most of their ebuilds into the tree,
so they stay in the science overlay. That sucks. More people.
- gnome is really underpowered, hence the trouble with gnome3

if it's about projects, then well... maybe "gentoo alt" (bsd and
prefix), arch testers or even kernel (kernel package maintainers don't
have the resources anymore to stabilize vanilla-sources). Also: if you
are good with python, you want to contribute to portage... very few
people work on that and it's not getting less work. Our security system
lacks some responsiveness imo due to being underpowered, we can improve
that.

GENTOO IS AWESOME!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/31/2013 03:25 AM, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> On 31/07/2013 09:48, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> I want to become a dev, what's my next step? There is none. Help out,
>> and maybe someone will notice you? Ok, I'm on it. Been doing it for
>> years, and I know several other people in the same situation. It doesn't
>> work, and recruitment numbers are plummeting.
>>
>> There needs to be an explicit, documented process.
> I agree, it's not really concrete.
> 
> Which projects/areas are you usually involved in?
> 

I'm not heavily involved in any one project. I proxy maintain,

  * net-dns/djbdns
  * net-dns/rbldnsd

I wrote at least three programs that are in the tree whose maintenance I
would be happy to take over:

  * xfce-extra/xfce4-hdaps
  * sys-apps/apply-default-acl
  * app-emacs/nagios-mode

In sunrise, I have,

  * app-antivirus/clamav-unofficial-sigs
  * net-mail/amavis-logwatch
  * net-mail/postfix-logwatch

Lately I've been submitting things to the gentoo-haskell overlay. Most
haskell ebuilds can be generated automatically, so this is simply a
matter of running hackport merge <program>, and sending a pull request.
Another program I wrote lives in the overlay:

  * net-misc/hath

And I would be happy to maintain a number of Haskell libraries that I
use in my day-to-day-development (mostly numerical stuff and deps of my
programs).

In my personal overlay, there are a few more packages:

  * app-emacs/vbnet-mode
  * app-emacs/visual-basic-mode (bug #445370)

There are a few minor bugs in my bugzilla list that I could easily take
care of. Long-term, I have a professional interest in fixing mpm-itk in
apache-2.4.x.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Palimaka]

On 31/07/2013 22:56, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> Lately I've been submitting things to the gentoo-haskell overlay.

Have you asked any members of that project if they would be interested 
in being your mentor? Even if they can't, they might know someone who can.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/31/2013 02:25 PM, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> On 31/07/2013 22:56, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> Lately I've been submitting things to the gentoo-haskell overlay.
> 
> Have you asked any members of that project if they would be interested 
> in being your mentor? Even if they can't, they might know someone who can.

I haven't, and I'll accept some of the blame for that, but there are
only three team members: gienah, qnikst, and slyfox. All of them are
certainly overworked, and the most communication I've had with any of
them is a question on IRC or a thanks/thanks exchange on a pull request.

It seems a little rude to pop in, address them personally, and ask them
each if they'd devote months of their time towards mentoring me. (Doing
so can pressure someone into agreeing to something he doesn't want to
do, or makes him reject you personally which many people find awkward.)

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Michael Palimaka]

On 1/08/2013 04:34, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> It seems a little rude to pop in, address them personally, and ask them
> each if they'd devote months of their time towards mentoring me. (Doing
> so can pressure someone into agreeing to something he doesn't want to
> do, or makes him reject you personally which many people find awkward.)

I definitely understand that. I wonder if it would help if we had a page 
where developers could register their interest in being a mentor.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Hans de Graaff]

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 19:48:19 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> I want to become a dev, what's my next step? There is none. Help out,
> and maybe someone will notice you? Ok, I'm on it. Been doing it for
> years, and I know several other people in the same situation. It doesn't
> work, and recruitment numbers are plummeting.
> 
> There needs to be an explicit, documented process. And someone devoted
> full-time to mentoring new recruits. I can think of no better long-term
> investment of the foundation's money.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2 
documents this from the new developer perspective. Note how it says to 
contact the recruiters if you don't already have found a mentor yourself.

There is also http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/ which 
documents this from the inside, but when I wanted to become a developer I 
found that more useful documentation :-)

So it is explicitly documented. Perhaps not well enough? In that case, 
let us know what you miss.

Hans

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Hans de Graaff]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:34:41 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:


> It seems a little rude to pop in, address them personally, and ask them
> each if they'd devote months of their time towards mentoring me. (Doing
> so can pressure someone into agreeing to something he doesn't want to
> do, or makes him reject you personally which many people find awkward.)

That doesn't sound rude to me at all. If you explain your interest and 
ask them if they know anyone that could be your mentor you can also avoid 
that pressure for the most part.

And we're not talking months here either. I've just finished mentoring 
someone, and it probably took ~15 hours spread over a couple of months. 
Compared to some of the other Gentoo work not a huge commitment, and one 
that pays itself back by seeing an otherwise derelict part of Gentoo 
being maintained again.

Hans

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Daniel Campbell]

On 07/31/2013 02:05 PM, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> On 1/08/2013 04:34, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> It seems a little rude to pop in, address them personally, and ask them
>> each if they'd devote months of their time towards mentoring me. (Doing
>> so can pressure someone into agreeing to something he doesn't want to
>> do, or makes him reject you personally which many people find awkward.)
> 
> I definitely understand that. I wonder if it would help if we had a page
> where developers could register their interest in being a mentor.
> 
> 
> 
I think that'd be a great idea. If each developer could state where
their interests/expertise laid and what type of dev they'd be interested
in mentoring, that could make the selection process more natural for
both prospective devs and established devs.

The problem I have is I don't know what I'd want to work on. I love vim,
tmux, and fluxbox, but I believe they already have capable maintainers.
I'm learning C and Python, and know PHP, so there's probably a bit I
could learn about C and Python. And my competency in PHP may qualify me
for some packages. Which ones, I don't know.

Overall I just can't think of a reason for Gentoo to take me.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 01/08/13, Hans de Graaff wrote:

> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2 
> documents this from the new developer perspective. Note how it says to 
> contact the recruiters if you don't already have found a mentor yourself.
> 
> There is also http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/ which 
> documents this from the inside, but when I wanted to become a developer I 
> found that more useful documentation :-)
> 
> So it is explicitly documented. Perhaps not well enough? In that case, 
> let us know what you miss.

I've proposed myself some years ago. Things might have changed since
then but at that time the mail I sent to the dev list got no response.

Process recruitement is incredibely busy and over-complicated compared
to all other projects I've been involved into. I think this stands like
that because most developers are afraid to give wirte acces to the whole
portage CVS tree to others.

In all other projects, it's almost a question of subscribing to a
mailing list and send git patches. With time, you get direct write
access. With Gentoo, you have to find a mentor, officially call for
being a member, success the online tests, keep mentored some time. Not
very light and efficient...

Now, I'm away from Gentoo and it's fine. :-)

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Alon Bar-Lev]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> The 01/08/13, Hans de Graaff wrote:
>
>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
>> documents this from the new developer perspective. Note how it says to
>> contact the recruiters if you don't already have found a mentor yourself.
>>
>> There is also http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/recruiters/ which
>> documents this from the inside, but when I wanted to become a developer I
>> found that more useful documentation :-)
>>
>> So it is explicitly documented. Perhaps not well enough? In that case,
>> let us know what you miss.
>
> I've proposed myself some years ago. Things might have changed since
> then but at that time the mail I sent to the dev list got no response.
>
> Process recruitement is incredibely busy and over-complicated compared
> to all other projects I've been involved into. I think this stands like
> that because most developers are afraid to give wirte acces to the whole
> portage CVS tree to others.
>
> In all other projects, it's almost a question of subscribing to a
> mailing list and send git patches.

I don't see the major difference between that and opening a bug and
attaching the patch. Only that bugzilla allow to manage the process,
not have leftovers, and future people can resume past discussions.

> With time, you get direct write
> access.

In time you can be become either proxy maintainer or gentoo developer
(direct access to source repository).

> With Gentoo, you have to find a mentor, officially call for
> being a member, success the online tests, keep mentored some time. Not
> very light and efficient...

Can you please suggest a different method to ensure quality?

> Now, I'm away from Gentoo and it's fine. :-)
>
> --
> Nicolas Sebrecht
>

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 01/08/13, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:

> I don't see the major difference between that and opening a bug and
> attaching the patch. Only that bugzilla allow to manage the process,
> not have leftovers, and future people can resume past discussions.

The bugzilla thing is what makes the difference, IMHO. git-push and
git-send-email are one shoot simple commands to get things done. Having
to open the web browser, connect to bugzilla, attach the patch and
comment online is too much busy. 

> > With Gentoo, you have to find a mentor, officially call for
> > being a member, success the online tests, keep mentored some time. Not
> > very light and efficient...
> 
> Can you please suggest a different method to ensure quality?

Yes, having a few maintainers team with write access to the whole
portage tree and contributors sending patches to them or to official
package maintainers making the first review before they do the merge and
submit to the main maintainers. Something like the kernel with
the main maintainers, the lieutenants and open contributors.

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 08/01/2013 02:11 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> The 01/08/13, Alon Bar-Lev wrote:
> 
>> I don't see the major difference between that and opening a bug and
>> attaching the patch. Only that bugzilla allow to manage the process,
>> not have leftovers, and future people can resume past discussions.
> 
> The bugzilla thing is what makes the difference, IMHO. git-push and
> git-send-email are one shoot simple commands to get things done. Having
> to open the web browser, connect to bugzilla, attach the patch and
> comment online is too much busy. 

You can use the command line too.

www-client/pybugz

> 
>>> With Gentoo, you have to find a mentor, officially call for
>>> being a member, success the online tests, keep mentored some time. Not
>>> very light and efficient...
>>
>> Can you please suggest a different method to ensure quality?
> 
> Yes, having a few maintainers team with write access to the whole
> portage tree and contributors sending patches to them or to official
> package maintainers making the first review before they do the merge and
> submit to the main maintainers. Something like the kernel with
> the main maintainers, the lieutenants and open contributors.
> 

Git workflow has been on the todo list for a long time, as well as
review systems such as gerrit.

It is non trivial to implement and none of it is an excuse for not
contributing IMO ;)

Those are enhancements and we are already working on it. Get your hands
dirty.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 01/08/13, hasufell wrote:

> You can use the command line too.
> 
> www-client/pybugz

I know this tool. I did try it. At that time it was buggy and did not
work for me. Though, this would still be a busy process as this is just
another interface og the bugzilla thing.

> Git workflow has been on the todo list for a long time, as well as
> review systems such as gerrit.
> 
> It is non trivial to implement

Other than the git repository size requiring a huge initial clone, it's
very easy to do. And yes, I've read all the headaches on the Gentoo
mailing lists about the git migration.

Also, Gentoo organization has two heads making ambitious dicisions hard
to take. And AFAIKS, to decision process in Gentoo is not helping at
all. We are far from how it worked at the genesis/beginning of Gentoo.

> It is non trivial to implement and none of it is an excuse for not
> contributing IMO ;)
> 
> Those are enhancements and we are already working on it. Get your hands
> dirty.

Oh, yes. Pass the recruitement process to enhance the recruitement process,
workflow and decision process (not possible to change, IMO). Funny! :-)

Again, I proposed myself to the dev list two times in the past. Nobody
cared and I had no answers.

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 08/01/2013 03:15 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> The 01/08/13, hasufell wrote:
> 
>> You can use the command line too.
>>
>> www-client/pybugz
> 
> I know this tool. I did try it. At that time it was buggy and did not
> work for me. Though, this would still be a busy process as this is just
> another interface og the bugzilla thing.
> 
>> Git workflow has been on the todo list for a long time, as well as
>> review systems such as gerrit.
>>
>> It is non trivial to implement
> 
> Other than the git repository size requiring a huge initial clone, it's
> very easy to do.

Let's not make this yet another git migration discussion. Sufficient to
say, that it is not trivial to implement in Gentoo since we have to
migrate history, tools (not just end-user tools, this is also about
infra) and a lot of other stuff without breaking everything.

Also: A lot of gentoo projects have an overlay on github or similar
where they accept pull requests already. Including sunrise.

> 
> Also, Gentoo organization has two heads making ambitious dicisions hard
> to take. And AFAIKS, to decision process in Gentoo is not helping at
> all. We are far from how it worked at the genesis/beginning of Gentoo.
> 

There is a lot of room for improvement in the political aspects of
gentoo. In order to change it, you have to get more involved.

>> It is non trivial to implement and none of it is an excuse for not
>> contributing IMO ;)
>>
>> Those are enhancements and we are already working on it. Get your hands
>> dirty.
> 
> Oh, yes. Pass the recruitement process to enhance the recruitement process,
> workflow and decision process (not possible to change, IMO). Funny! :-)
> 
> Again, I proposed myself to the dev list two times in the past. Nobody
> cared and I had no answers.
> 

I think the dev ML is not the right place to ask for a mentor, you
actually have to _find_ one. Discuss on IRC, help out on bugzie, send
pull requests to official gentoo overlays and then you might already
know a few devs who work in that area you are intested in. If you are
unable to find one, the recruiters will help you with that, just contact
them.

Also: we approach people ourselves who force us to commit for them every
single time. It is annoying, so we want them to become devs ;)

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 01/08/13, hasufell wrote:

> Let's not make this yet another git migration discussion. Sufficient to
> say, that it is not trivial to implement in Gentoo since we have to
> migrate history, tools (not just end-user tools, this is also about
> infra) and a lot of other stuff without breaking everything.

Yes, the more objectives are high, the more it is hard to get it
running.

Even Linus said that once the kernel repository will be too much big he
will archive the current repository to keep logs and start with a new
one.

> Also: A lot of gentoo projects have an overlay on github or similar
> where they accept pull requests already. Including sunrise.

<...>

> There is a lot of room for improvement in the political aspects of
> gentoo. In order to change it, you have to get more involved.

I think I wans't clear enough. I proposed myself when the first
discussions for CVS to Git migration started. I guess it is something
like 2 to 3 years ago. Today, I don't want to contribute anymore.

> I think the dev ML is not the right place to ask for a mentor, you
> actually have to _find_ one. Discuss on IRC, help out on bugzie, send
> pull requests to official gentoo overlays and then you might already
> know a few devs who work in that area you are intested in. If you are
> unable to find one, the recruiters will help you with that, just contact
> them.

This is exactly the topic. The feeling I have when I read this thread is
that I've not been alone to not get more involved in Gentoo _because_ of
this recruitement process. I'm pointing out that it is really too much
and I think that Gentoo could benefit of more open ways to contribute.

It's true that with more git-based projects it's easier today than in
the past to get involved. But there are still ways of improvement in
this area, IMHO. I just try to give my external POV to others so they
are aware of my experience and perspective. What you do with this owns
to you. ,-)

> Also: we approach people ourselves who force us to commit for them every
> single time. It is annoying, so we want them to become devs ;)

Obsiously. :-)

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Steven J. Long]

Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> hasufell wrote:
> > You can use the command line too.
> > 
> > www-client/pybugz
> 
> I know this tool. I did try it. At that time it was buggy and did not
> work for me. Though, this would still be a busy process as this is just
> another interface og the bugzilla thing.

It's another command to run, just like git. As others have pointed out, the use of
a bug-tracker is important in terms of managing the process. That still stands.
 
> > Git workflow has been on the todo list for a long time, as well as
> > review systems such as gerrit.
> > 
> > It is non trivial to implement
> 
> Other than the git repository size requiring a huge initial clone, it's
> very easy to do. And yes, I've read all the headaches on the Gentoo
> mailing lists about the git migration.

Using git and accepting patches on a mailing-list wouldn't change the process you
discuss: it would just make everything harder to manage, and require more work on
the part of maintainers. And there are no people working full-time on Gentoo ebuilds,
in contrast to Linux kernel development.

So aiming for that as a model, is simply a bad idea: the circumstances and the time
available are radically different. As is the product.

> Also, Gentoo organization has two heads making ambitious dicisions hard
> to take. And AFAIKS, to decision process in Gentoo is not helping at
> all. We are far from how it worked at the genesis/beginning of Gentoo.

I don't agree: Gentoo is much stronger now. But more importantly I don't see this
as relevant in the slightest. You appear to be whinging basically, that you weren't
welcomed with open arms on the strength of your email to the list, so you emailed
again and "no-one cared." And going from there to drawing wider conclusions on a
the whole setup, as if that's the reason you were snubbed *sniffle*. Total non-
sequitur imo.

> > It is non trivial to implement and none of it is an excuse for not
> > contributing IMO ;)
> > 
> > Those are enhancements and we are already working on it. Get your hands
> > dirty.
> 
> Oh, yes. Pass the recruitement process to enhance the recruitement process,
> workflow and decision process (not possible to change, IMO). Funny! :-)

No: just contribute.

> Again, I proposed myself to the dev list two times in the past. Nobody
> cared and I had no answers.

Because that has never been the process: anyone can post to the mailing-list, it
doesn't mean anything. While I agree it would have been good if recruiters had
followed it up with you, if you're so new to Gentoo that you think the ML is how
to start, then I can see why people might feel you needed to learn more, perhaps
by reviewing the documentation. And if that's too much to ask, then perhaps you're
not cut out to be a Gentoo developer: ime you need to be more of a self-starter
just to use the distro.

Please don't get me wrong: I think the recruitment process could be improved, in
particular by having more developers working on it. And that does take a cultural
shift, in terms of seeing recruitment as important, and a desirable thing to work
on, as well as in terms of being more proactive and welcoming to newcomers, and to
external perspectives.

Neither of those change the fact that you don't join a team just by sending them
an email. Like it or not, there are social factors involved, or it wouldn't be
a team of people, however loosely associated.

And if you cba to review the basics, stuff most users know, or can find out easily,
what makes you think you're cut out to be a developer?

Please note I'm not discussing any technical ability you may or may not have with
bash, ebuilds or upstream sources. Just your ability to find out the basics, which
is much less difficult than installing Gentoo in the first place.

If you want/ed to be a developer, my advice would always be: show you're useful, not
that you need hand-holding and ego-stroking from the get-go.

-- 
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 02/08/13, Steven J. Long wrote:

> > Again, I proposed myself to the dev list two times in the past. Nobody
> > cared and I had no answers.
> 
> Because that has never been the process: anyone can post to the mailing-list, it
> doesn't mean anything. While I agree it would have been good if recruiters had
> followed it up with you, if you're so new to Gentoo that you think the ML is how
> to start, then I can see why people might feel you needed to learn more, perhaps
> by reviewing the documentation. And if that's too much to ask, then perhaps you're
> not cut out to be a Gentoo developer: ime you need to be more of a self-starter
> just to use the distro.
> 
> Please don't get me wrong: I think the recruitment process could be improved, in
> particular by having more developers working on it. And that does take a cultural
> shift, in terms of seeing recruitment as important, and a desirable thing to work
> on, as well as in terms of being more proactive and welcoming to newcomers, and to
> external perspectives.
> 
> Neither of those change the fact that you don't join a team just by sending them
> an email. Like it or not, there are social factors involved, or it wouldn't be
> a team of people, however loosely associated.

If social factours is important, it is not just that FMPOV. Anyway, you
seems to think the way Gentoo shares code and knowledge is good enough
as-is to have contributors and new developers. Fine. I don't think so
and the other contributions to this thread confort me in my opinion.

Please, take the critism the constructive way. The topic is not about me.

> And if you cba to review the basics, stuff most users know, or can find out easily,
> what makes you think you're cut out to be a developer?
> 
> Please note I'm not discussing any technical ability you may or may not have with
> bash, ebuilds or upstream sources. Just your ability to find out the basics, which
> is much less difficult than installing Gentoo in the first place.
> 
> If you want/ed to be a developer, my advice would always be: show you're useful, not
> that you need hand-holding and ego-stroking from the get-go.

I've been an occasionnal contributor to Git, the active maintainer of
OfflineIMAP for more than a year and I'm maintainer and developer at
$DAY_JOB since years. I turned the OfflineIMAP worflow from one
maintainer into a team of official maintainers. This is merely one
example of my contributions to the open source world and when it comes
to recruitement, workflow and decision processes I think I know what I'm
talking about.

Pointing out my "hand-holding", "ego-stroking" or whatever looks
pointless. I know the basics. 

Thanks,

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 08/02/2013 01:16 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
>> And if you cba to review the basics, stuff most users know, or can find out easily,
>> what makes you think you're cut out to be a developer?
>>
>> Please note I'm not discussing any technical ability you may or may not have with
>> bash, ebuilds or upstream sources. Just your ability to find out the basics, which
>> is much less difficult than installing Gentoo in the first place.
>>
>> If you want/ed to be a developer, my advice would always be: show you're useful, not
>> that you need hand-holding and ego-stroking from the get-go.
> 
> I've been an occasionnal contributor to Git, the active maintainer of
> OfflineIMAP for more than a year and I'm maintainer and developer at
> $DAY_JOB since years. I turned the OfflineIMAP worflow from one
> maintainer into a team of official maintainers. This is merely one
> example of my contributions to the open source world and when it comes
> to recruitement, workflow and decision processes I think I know what I'm
> talking about.
> 

We mainly care about gentoo contributions when it comes to gentoo
recruitment and do not let people in, just because they are developers.
That is not even a requirement.

So we are pretty open to new contributors.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

On Fri, Aug 02, 2013 at 01:58:35PM +0200, hasufell wrote:

> So we are pretty open to new contributors.

Nice conclusion!

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Steven J. Long]

Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> Steven J. Long wrote:
> > > Again, I proposed myself to the dev list two times in the past. Nobody
> > > cared and I had no answers.
> > 
> > Because that has never been the process: anyone can post to the mailing-list, it
> > doesn't mean anything. While I agree it would have been good if recruiters had
> > followed it up with you..
..
> > Neither of those change the fact that you don't join a team just by sending them
> > an email. Like it or not, there are social factors involved, or it wouldn't be
> > a team of people, however loosely associated.
> 
> If social factours is important, it is not just that FMPOV.

I never said it was though, did I? However you cannot just ignore those social factors,
however much you might prefer to. You must know that from work, so why is this so hard to
accept?

> Anyway, you
> seems to think the way Gentoo shares code and knowledge is good enough
> as-is to have contributors and new developers.

Another strawman, after I've just stated:

"Please don't get me wrong: I think the recruitment process could be improved.. that does
take a cultural shift."

Again you appear to be reacting emotionally. Feel free to have a hissy-fit: that's the kind
of thing that turns people off you.

Not sure what you mean about "sharing code": it's all mirrored across the world multiple
times so I don't really recognise your point about a deficit of sharing.

> Fine. I don't think so and the other contributions to this thread confort me in my opinion.

Yes well, somehow I think you're more interested in comfort for your opinions, most especially
of yourself, than actually moving anything forward for everyone.

> Please, take the critism the constructive way. The topic is not about me.

The same goes for you: and it was about you, since all you wanted to discuss were how your
two emails (the effort!) were ignored, and then draw wide-ranging conclusions that were
non-sequitur.

I did try to discuss what actually happens, and where you went wrong. You haven't considered
what I've said, only used it as reason for spurious argument.

> Pointing out my "hand-holding", "ego-stroking" or whatever looks
> pointless.

I wasn't: I was pointing out your apparent need for those, which seems to have continued
into this email.

You've turned it into about what a great "developer" you are, and how much we're missing
by not having your "contribution". Even though I specifically stated:

"Please note I'm not discussing any technical ability you may or may not have."

> I know the basics. 

Again you're wilfully misinterpreting what I've said, and answering a completely different
point. You didn't know the basics of how to go about approaching Gentoo. Stuff that
practically every user knows, or can find out *very* easily: much more easily than the
documentation they end up searching to do an install and maintain their machine/s. Again,
if you cba to do that basic groundwork, wtf do you expect?

Oh yes, us all to fall over ourselves and fete you with discussion about how wonderful you
are, and how lucky we'd be if you only deigned to contribute some of your wisdom to us mere
mortals. So much so that we ignore all the usual metrics, and take your email as gospel
truth, that overrides whether you are actually a good fit for Gentoo, or even whether you
can lookup docs on a website, let alone have actually contributed as part of the community.

Good luck with that approach, and your current projects.

-- 
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 08/02/2013 07:36 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 02, 2013 at 01:58:35PM +0200, hasufell wrote:
> 
>> So we are pretty open to new contributors.
> 
> Nice conclusion!
> 

Yes. We offer manys way to collaborate and the only real requirement is
that people are able to read documentation and improve their knowledge.

You can:
* look for bugs and file them against packages
* work on ebuilds that are not already in the tree and attach them
to bug reports
* alternatively contribute to the official user overlay sunrise, either
in IRC, or on github/bitbucket mirrors
* alternatively contribute directly to some herd overlays such as
"science" or "haskell" (both hosted on github)
* help out people with ebuild writing in #gentoo-dev-help,
#gentoo-sunrise or just help users in #gentoo or on gentoo-user ML
figuring out their daily gentoo problems
* make techincal/political suggestions on the appropriate mailing lists
* write a GLEP (everyone can)
* find a mentor and become a gentoo developer

Everyone can improve gentoo, just do it.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[mehdi chemloul]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1402 bytes --]

Le 2 août 2013 13:59, "hasufell" <hasufell@gentoo.org> a écrit :
>
> On 08/02/2013 01:16 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> >> And if you cba to review the basics, stuff most users know, or can
find out easily,
> >> what makes you think you're cut out to be a developer?
> >>
> >> Please note I'm not discussing any technical ability you may or may
not have with
> >> bash, ebuilds or upstream sources. Just your ability to find out the
basics, which
> >> is much less difficult than installing Gentoo in the first place.
> >>
> >> If you want/ed to be a developer, my advice would always be: show
you're useful, not
> >> that you need hand-holding and ego-stroking from the get-go.
> >
> > I've been an occasionnal contributor to Git, the active maintainer of
> > OfflineIMAP for more than a year and I'm maintainer and developer at
> > $DAY_JOB since years. I turned the OfflineIMAP worflow from one
> > maintainer into a team of official maintainers. This is merely one
> > example of my contributions to the open source world and when it comes
> > to recruitement, workflow and decision processes I think I know what I'm
> > talking about.
> >
>
> We mainly care about gentoo contributions when it comes to gentoo
> recruitment and do not let people in, just because they are developers.
> That is not even a requirement.
>
> So we are pretty open to new contributors.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1768 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

On Fri, Aug 02, 2013 at 08:34:11PM +0100, Steven J. Long wrote:

> Again you're wilfully misinterpreting what I've said, and answering a completely different
> point. You didn't know the basics of how to go about approaching Gentoo. Stuff that
> practically every user knows, or can find out *very* easily: much more easily than the
> documentation they end up searching to do an install and maintain their machine/s. Again,
> if you cba to do that basic groundwork, wtf do you expect?
> 
> Oh yes, us all to fall over ourselves and fete you with discussion about how wonderful you
> are, and how lucky we'd be if you only deigned to contribute some of your wisdom to us mere
> mortals. So much so that we ignore all the usual metrics, and take your email as gospel
> truth, that overrides whether you are actually a good fit for Gentoo, or even whether you
> can lookup docs on a website, let alone have actually contributed as part of the community.
> 
> Good luck with that approach, and your current projects.

While I (and others BTW) was trying to provide an external POV with
points to make outside contributions and rectruitement more efficient,
you guys @gentoo.org turned this thread into plain bullshits.

Starting with a statement like "Please note I'm not discussing any
technical ability you may or may not have." does not allow you to make
the exact opposite and being insulting or border-line in the rest of
your mails. I don't remember I ever faced to such direct and personal
judgments in the open source world. Oh, I know you pretend it's not.

So, I'm on my way, dear, in order to:
- learn how to approach a community (stuff that practically every user
  knows);
- learn where to find the doc and read it;
- learn all the basics;
- not magnify myself.

Thank you for all the smart feedbacks. Obvisously, it was all about me.

<F**k>
I want to believe you don't embody the dominant POV of the Gentoo
maintainers about the original topic.
</>

I'm going serioulsy tired of this thread.

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[pk]

On 2013-08-03 14:28, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 02, 2013 at 08:34:11PM +0100, Steven J. Long wrote:

> While I (and others BTW) was trying to provide an external POV with
> points to make outside contributions and rectruitement more efficient,
> you guys @gentoo.org turned this thread into plain bullshits.

Please note that the one you replied to (Steven J. Long) does not have a
@gentoo.org email address... I haven't followed this thread closely but
I think the gentoo devs (and others) deserves respect for their hard
work, mostly(?) without pay. I may not like the direction where some
things are going (udev, systemd) but it's the best thing we got for now
(portage, openrc), imho.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[hasufell]

On 08/03/2013 02:28 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> you guys @gentoo.org turned this thread into plain bullshits.
> 

I have a lot of patience, but that does not help us and definitely not
your case either. Please stop.

People who are _really_ interested in contributing are welcome to
contact me directly as well.

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

On Sat, Aug 03, 2013 at 03:20:27PM +0200, pk wrote:
> On 2013-08-03 14:28, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 02, 2013 at 08:34:11PM +0100, Steven J. Long wrote:
> 
> > While I (and others BTW) was trying to provide an external POV with
> > points to make outside contributions and rectruitement more efficient,
> > you guys @gentoo.org turned this thread into plain bullshits.
> 
> Please note that the one you replied to (Steven J. Long) does not have a
> @gentoo.org email address... 

Ah, right. Sorry for that.

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

[gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Steven J. Long]

Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> Steven J. Long wrote:
> 
> > Again you're wilfully misinterpreting what I've said, and answering a completely different
> > point. You didn't know the basics of how to go about approaching Gentoo.

> While I (and others BTW)

My point is simply this: there is a world of difference between someone who simply sends two
emails to the wrong place, a busy list that often has a lot of controversy on it, and someone
who actively helps out other users, files bugs, patches and new or updated ebuilds and knows
enough to be of use in #gentoo-dev-help.

FTR, I do not count myself amongst that latter group. I just know them when I see them; but
they're always known to gentoo folks already.

> was trying to provide an external POV with
> points to make outside contributions and rectruitement more efficient,

You've sold your tirades under that banner, yes. I'm not buying; as is prob'y clear.

> you guys @gentoo.org turned this thread into plain bullshits.

As has been pointed out, I am not @gentoo.org. Sorry for use of 'we' in that context: I was
perhaps reacting emotionally as well. Frankly I'd taken care to spell out exactly what I was
saying, and you just ignored the content, and reacted to the perceived insult.

> Starting with a statement like "Please note I'm not discussing any
> technical ability you may or may not have." does not allow you to make
> the exact opposite

Again: I was not discussing technical ability. Knowing the basics of how Gentoo operates is
not a technical challenge. So you're wrong: I never disparaged your technical ability as a
"developer".

Perhaps you should just take what people type at face value: it saves a lot of confusion.
Especially given the differences in language that occur; that was why I spelt it out.

> and being insulting or border-line in the rest of your mails.

I was being sarcastic in my last mail. Prior to that I was truly simply trying to explain,
where you'd gone wrong. Further, I spoke informally ("wtf did you expect?") since I assumed
you were comfortable with the informality that is pretty much par for the course on most
mailing-list and web-forums.

And I stand by that: if you don't do the groundwork, I have zero sympathy for you. Of much
more concern, and where the cultural shift needs to take place, are the people who do the
groundwork, and are proven useful to the community and the project, but never acknowledged.
Many of them have a decade or two of experience at least in Computing, and they'd be
valuable and productive members of the dev-team, as well as bringing some longer-term
perspective.

But I actually think this whole thread is a change in that direction: developers are
reaching out and asking for people to get involved, and engaging with those who have
already been doing that, as well as providing the basic info to those who haven't.

So in terms of Gentoo and the project we care about, things are getting better. IMO.

BTW everything I say is my opinion. I don't usually bother to qualify it, as it's obvious
imo.

> I don't remember I ever faced to such direct and personal
> judgments in the open source world.

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life. You'll grow a thicker-skin: you'd better if you intend
to do much in FLOSS.

But feel free to hate me: you won't be alone, and I have grown a thicker skin over the last
few years, so I'll cope.

> Oh, I know you pretend it's not.

No, I just think you take yourself too seriously. And you still haven't really sat down and
considered the points I made in my first mail, which you prefer to have restated in order to
ignore again, afaic.

> So, I'm on my way, dear, in order to:
> - learn how to approach a community (stuff that practically every user
>   knows);

And yet you didn't, nor did you bother to do much looking around on the websites. More
importantly, if you are intending to collaborate with a wider community, that believe me can
be an awful lot nastier than me, you *really* cannot handle that being pointed out. You might
want to work on that.

> - learn where to find the doc and read it;
> - learn all the basics;

Hallelujah. I look forward to your contributions on bugzilla, the forums, IRC and sunrise.

> - not magnify myself.
> 
> Thank you for all the smart feedbacks. Obvisously, it was all about me.

You did make it all about you, yeah. And then took everything personally as an attack on you,
when two minutes' reflection (or a re-read) would have shown you that the basics were nothing
at all to do with coding, and everything to do with Gentoo processes.

> <F**k>
> I want to believe you don't embody the dominant POV of the Gentoo
> maintainers about the original topic.
> </>

I don't embody any official position on anything. However, from my experience, I think most
people would expect you, or anyone else, to have at least done some basic research about the
organisation they claim to want to join.

> I'm going serioulsy tired of this thread.

Me too. Repeating myself for the third time is really lame. So let's agree to kill it here,
since neither of wants to go on with it.

Don't let me put you off Gentoo: there's loads of much nicer people involved, and I'm nothing
to do with anything.

Just do your homework ;p

Oh, as a general point, I find it helps to take a break from the keyboard if you're annoyed
at what someone's said to you on a mailing-list (and on IRC.) What you shouldn't do is
respond immediately from your sense of outrage or anger (or w/e.) Come back to it and re-read
and first see whether there's another interpretation of the words, and as ever feel free to
pick someone up on what's been said. You're less likely to miss subtleties, and more likely
to keep it polite.

And FFS, who cares if "someone on the internet is wrong"?

Regards,
steveL.
-- 
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Gentoo is so AWESOME

[Bruno Cartusia]

> And FFS, who cares if "someone on the internet is wrong"? Regards, steveL.
So I would definitely second that opinion of yours :-) .

http://www.jokes-db.com/funny-pictures/computers-and-internet-and-gadgets/special_olympics.html 


I am not sure if anyone has seem this classic gem.

"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even 
if you win you are still retarded."

Now this was not meant to be flame bait. Just pointing out that both of 
you probably agree a whole lot more then you think you do. Honestly, any 
contribution is well appreciated especially when you are not getting 
paid to do anything.

Can never say enough thanks to all those who contribute code, or help 
out users in any way.