[gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Pandu Poluan]

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Just in case anyone missed it:

https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> Just in case anyone missed it:
>
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>
> Rgds,

Post could not be found. "Your URL may be incorrect, the post may have
been deleted, or this account may not have access to the post."

(You'd think they'd have the decency to distinguish between 403, 404 and 410...)

-- 
:wq

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 15/06/12 20:03, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>
>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>
>> Rgds,
>
> Post could not be found. "Your URL may be incorrect, the post may have
> been deleted, or this account may not have access to the post."

The link is:

https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i


> (You'd think they'd have the decency to distinguish between 403, 404 and 410...)

Who cares.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Paul Hartman]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>
>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>
>> Rgds,
>
> Post could not be found. "Your URL may be incorrect, the post may have
> been deleted, or this account may not have access to the post."
>
> (You'd think they'd have the decency to distinguish between 403, 404 and 410...)

Try this one:
https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alex Schuster]

Pandu Poluan writes:

> Just in case anyone missed it:
> 
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I

That URL cannot be found. This seems to work for me:
https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/StQB1ftUp8D

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alex Schuster]

Alex Schuster writes:

> Pandu Poluan writes:
> 
> > Just in case anyone missed it:
> > 
> > https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
> 
> That URL cannot be found. This seems to work for me:
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/StQB1ftUp8D

Argh, but it's the wrong post. How did this end up imy clipboard?

This one is correct (your URL, with a lowercase 'I' at the end):

https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Dale]

Pandu Poluan wrote:
>
> Just in case anyone missed it:
>
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>
> Rgds,
>


Is it me or is he upset?  I don't mean a lot, just a little.  ;-) 

I tried Gnome once.  I think Linus likes it more than I did.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:38:52 -0500, Dale wrote:

> Is it me or is he upset?  I don't mean a lot, just a little.  ;-) 

Well, he clearly is, I don't now if you are :)

> I tried Gnome once.  I think Linus likes it more than I did.  lol

IKWYM (and what Linus means).


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I@love~my,;It's%made in Taiwa~##$ ` #@

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Jun 16, 2012 12:25 AM, "Alex Schuster" <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>
> Alex Schuster writes:
>
> > Pandu Poluan writes:
> >
> > > Just in case anyone missed it:
> > >
> > > https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
> >
> > That URL cannot be found. This seems to work for me:
> > https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/StQB1ftUp8D
>
> Argh, but it's the wrong post. How did this end up imy clipboard?
>
> This one is correct (your URL, with a lowercase 'I' at the end):
>
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i
>
>        Wonko
>

Grr. Apparently my Android decides to auto-capitalize the lone "i" there...
>.<

I *despise* over-zealous autocorrection.

Rgds,

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[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[walt]

FWIW, I recently tried Windows 8 beta (on virtualbox, of course)
and I found it unusable.  Why?  Because they are rushing to
catch up with gnome3.  Their new desktop looks very much like
a smartphone. 

I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
smartphone market.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW, I recently tried Windows 8 beta (on virtualbox, of course)
> and I found it unusable.  Why?  Because they are rushing to
> catch up with gnome3.  Their new desktop looks very much like
> a smartphone.
>
> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> smartphone market.

Or they realized that the "old" users doesn't really matter, because
what is important is the younger generation being raised using
smartphones and tablets, and which play with Wii, Xbox Kinect or PS3
Move. That's the important market, and the future.

BTW, using GNOME 3 for more than one year in my laptop and desktop,
and I love it. I also want a tablet with it.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Gnome3

[walt]

On 06/16/2012 12:01 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> BTW, using GNOME 3 for more than one year in my laptop and desktop,
> and I love it. I also want a tablet with it.

Are you using any of the extensions Linus was discussing?  I'm using
gnome3 in fallback mode because most of my machines are too old to
have the hardware needed to run ghome-shell.  I haven't tried any
gnome3 extensions yet on my one new machine that will run gnome-shell.
 

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> smartphone market.

Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years now.

Are we dead yet?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>>
>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>> smartphone market.
>
>
> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years now.

Who said anything about it dying?

> Are we dead yet?

No, we are avolving.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Matthew Finkel]

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On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>
>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>> smartphone market.
>>
>
> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years now.
>
> Are we dead yet?
>

I'm not holding my breath. There will always be a divide for the power
users. A single, under-powered interface isn't going to cut it for a lot of
us. X provides us with the flexibility that isn't available with the mobile
interface.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> > and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> > smartphone market.
> 
> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
> now.
> 
> Are we dead yet?
> 
> 

Fine comment.

Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all going to
die out inthe next year. Not.



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Matthew Finkel
<matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>>> smartphone market.
>>
>>
>> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years now.
>>
>> Are we dead yet?
>
>
> I'm not holding my breath. There will always be a divide for the power
> users. A single, under-powered interface isn't going to cut it for a lot of
> us. X provides us with the flexibility that isn't available with the mobile
> interface.

Even in the Microsoft world, I can't easily imagine them ditching the
old UI paradigm for their Windows Server products. They've come a long
way in making Windows CLI-friendly (see PowerShell), but they haven't
yet (AFAIK) provided a good mechanism for remote CLI access.

Not that they won't be able to bolt one in easily enough; CSRSS means
they should be able to provide, e.g. an SSH daemon, give the
connecting user a PowerShell login session[1], and give it equal
privileges and security controls as they have for any other login
session.

[1] A 'screen' workalike would be useful, but I don't know how quickly
they'll jump on that.


-- 
:wq

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[walt]

On 06/16/2012 02:12 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>>> smartphone market.
>>
>> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
>> now.
>>
>> Are we dead yet?
>>
>>
> 
> Fine comment.
> 
> Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
> desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all going to
> die out in the next year. Not.

True enough.  I'm forced to live in exactly that environment at work.
 
A couple of years ago some beancounters discovered that the City of
Los Angeles could save $BIG-MONEY by dumping MS and switching to the
for-profit version of google docs.  That caused a big stink over
security and reliability, naturally, but in the end the beancounters
won the argument.  Corporations got beancounters too, ya know ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Matthew Finkel]

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On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Matthew Finkel
> <matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> >>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> >>> smartphone market.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
> now.
> >>
> >> Are we dead yet?
> >
> >
> > I'm not holding my breath. There will always be a divide for the power
> > users. A single, under-powered interface isn't going to cut it for a lot
> of
> > us. X provides us with the flexibility that isn't available with the
> mobile
> > interface.
>
> Even in the Microsoft world, I can't easily imagine them ditching the
> old UI paradigm for their Windows Server products. They've come a long
> way in making Windows CLI-friendly (see PowerShell), but they haven't
> yet (AFAIK) provided a good mechanism for remote CLI access.
>

True, and they've been working "hard" to get it to the state it is in now.
In many cases, sys admins have had to unlearn relying on their mouse
for complete power. The CLI provides options that are, obviously, very
difficult
to express in a simple GUI (I know I'm preaching to the choir). Powershell
has
made huge progress in this respect, but it still has a long way to go in
order to
compete with what we have. And I doubt the server environment would ever
become stripped down to the state we're talking about.


> Not that they won't be able to bolt one in easily enough; CSRSS means
> they should be able to provide, e.g. an SSH daemon, give the
> connecting user a PowerShell login session[1], and give it equal
> privileges and security controls as they have for any other login
> session.
>

How many years have they had? I'd given up on this years ago.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 23:12:48 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
> 
> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> > > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> > > and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> > > smartphone market.
> > 
> > Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
> > now.
> > 
> > Are we dead yet?
> 
> Fine comment.
> 
> Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
> desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all going to
> die out inthe next year. Not.

and in corporate speak that means Windows XP and Office 2003/2007

because they work, they don't get in the way of doing things, the people are 
trained and nobody needs to smudge around on the screen,


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Matthew Finkel
<matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Matthew Finkel
>> <matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>> >>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>> >>> smartphone market.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
>> >> now.
>> >>
>> >> Are we dead yet?
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not holding my breath. There will always be a divide for the power
>> > users. A single, under-powered interface isn't going to cut it for a lot
>> > of
>> > us. X provides us with the flexibility that isn't available with the
>> > mobile
>> > interface.
>>
>> Even in the Microsoft world, I can't easily imagine them ditching the
>> old UI paradigm for their Windows Server products. They've come a long
>> way in making Windows CLI-friendly (see PowerShell), but they haven't
>> yet (AFAIK) provided a good mechanism for remote CLI access.
>
>
> True, and they've been working "hard" to get it to the state it is in now.
> In many cases, sys admins have had to unlearn relying on their mouse
> for complete power. The CLI provides options that are, obviously, very
> difficult
> to express in a simple GUI (I know I'm preaching to the choir). Powershell
> has
> made huge progress in this respect, but it still has a long way to go in
> order to
> compete with what we have. And I doubt the server environment would ever
> become stripped down to the state we're talking about.

Actually, they're there as of Windows Server 2008. It's called
"Windows Server 2008 Core". According to "Windows Server 2008: The
Definitive Guide", you log into one of these systems and all you get
(by default) is a terminal window with an instance of cmd.exe. It goes
on to list seven server roles this configuration supports:

* Active Directory and Active Directory Lightweight Domain Services (LDS)
* DHCP Server
* DNS Server
* File Services (including DFSR and NFS)
* Print Services
* Streaming Media Services
* Windows Server Virtualization

(Curiously, one of the things you _can't_ do is run Managed Code.)

>
>>
>> Not that they won't be able to bolt one in easily enough; CSRSS means
>> they should be able to provide, e.g. an SSH daemon, give the
>> connecting user a PowerShell login session[1], and give it equal
>> privileges and security controls as they have for any other login
>> session.
>
> How many years have they had? I'd given up on this years ago.

SFU is available in the "Server Core" configuration. I imagine you
could run OpenSSH under there. Or some commercial entity could come
along and provide an SSH+screen(ish) component to snap into the CSRSS
framework.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 23:12:48 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
>>
>> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
>> > > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>> > > and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>> > > smartphone market.
>> >
>> > Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
>> > now.
>> >
>> > Are we dead yet?
>>
>> Fine comment.
>>
>> Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
>> desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all going to
>> die out inthe next year. Not.
>
> and in corporate speak that means Windows XP and Office 2003/2007
>
> because they work, they don't get in the way of doing things, the people are
> trained and nobody needs to smudge around on the screen,

The most effective way I can imagine for keeping me on-task: Force me
to use a Windows XP workstation.

I won't be using _any_ personal credentials through the web browser or
any other part of the system. I'm not taking that risk on a
post-support version of Windows.

*grouses about people holding back, forcing the usage of particularly
insecure versions of operating systems*
*grouses at the IPv6 luddites, too; I'd love to use SSL on more
domains, but I only have one IPv4 server IP to work with.*


-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Matthew Finkel]

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On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Matthew Finkel
> <matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Matthew Finkel
> >> <matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> >> >>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> >> >>> smartphone market.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
> >> >> now.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are we dead yet?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I'm not holding my breath. There will always be a divide for the power
> >> > users. A single, under-powered interface isn't going to cut it for a
> lot
> >> > of
> >> > us. X provides us with the flexibility that isn't available with the
> >> > mobile
> >> > interface.
> >>
> >> Even in the Microsoft world, I can't easily imagine them ditching the
> >> old UI paradigm for their Windows Server products. They've come a long
> >> way in making Windows CLI-friendly (see PowerShell), but they haven't
> >> yet (AFAIK) provided a good mechanism for remote CLI access.
> >
> >
> > True, and they've been working "hard" to get it to the state it is in
> now.
> > In many cases, sys admins have had to unlearn relying on their mouse
> > for complete power. The CLI provides options that are, obviously, very
> > difficult
> > to express in a simple GUI (I know I'm preaching to the choir).
> Powershell
> > has
> > made huge progress in this respect, but it still has a long way to go in
> > order to
> > compete with what we have. And I doubt the server environment would ever
> > become stripped down to the state we're talking about.
>
> Actually, they're there as of Windows Server 2008. It's called
> "Windows Server 2008 Core". According to "Windows Server 2008: The
> Definitive Guide", you log into one of these systems and all you get
> (by default) is a terminal window with an instance of cmd.exe. It goes
> on to list seven server roles this configuration supports:
>
> * Active Directory and Active Directory Lightweight Domain Services (LDS)
> * DHCP Server
> * DNS Server
> * File Services (including DFSR and NFS)
> * Print Services
> * Streaming Media Services
> * Windows Server Virtualization
>
> (Curiously, one of the things you _can't_ do is run Managed Code.)
>

Huh, I didn't know about this. It's still too limited, though. At least
they've
duplicated a lot of the core gui elements on cli.


>
> >
> >>
> >> Not that they won't be able to bolt one in easily enough; CSRSS means
> >> they should be able to provide, e.g. an SSH daemon, give the
> >> connecting user a PowerShell login session[1], and give it equal
> >> privileges and security controls as they have for any other login
> >> session.
> >
> > How many years have they had? I'd given up on this years ago.
>
> SFU is available in the "Server Core" configuration. I imagine you
> could run OpenSSH under there. Or some commercial entity could come
> along and provide an SSH+screen(ish) component to snap into the CSRSS
> framework.
>

I'd actually forgotten about that, I would never trust their implement
though.
Apparently there's a binary available of OpenSSH that runs on SFU (so says
wiki [1]).
I've been out of the Windows Server environment for a few years now, so I
guess
I've missed out on some of the progress MS has made in this area. It's good
they
are pushing the CLI now. Perhaps in a few releases they'll implement their
own
of encrypting telnet sessions with a screen/tmux lookalike. Microsoft never
ceases to amaze me - with the good and the bad.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Matthew Finkel
<matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Matthew Finkel
>> <matthew.finkel@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> >>
>> > True, and they've been working "hard" to get it to the state it is in
>> > now.
>> > In many cases, sys admins have had to unlearn relying on their mouse
>> > for complete power. The CLI provides options that are, obviously, very
>> > difficult
>> > to express in a simple GUI (I know I'm preaching to the choir).
>> > Powershell
>> > has
>> > made huge progress in this respect, but it still has a long way to go in
>> > order to
>> > compete with what we have. And I doubt the server environment would ever
>> > become stripped down to the state we're talking about.
>>
>> Actually, they're there as of Windows Server 2008. It's called
>> "Windows Server 2008 Core". According to "Windows Server 2008: The
>> Definitive Guide", you log into one of these systems and all you get
>> (by default) is a terminal window with an instance of cmd.exe. It goes
>> on to list seven server roles this configuration supports:
>>
>> * Active Directory and Active Directory Lightweight Domain Services (LDS)
>> * DHCP Server
>> * DNS Server
>> * File Services (including DFSR and NFS)
>> * Print Services
>> * Streaming Media Services
>> * Windows Server Virtualization
>>
>> (Curiously, one of the things you _can't_ do is run Managed Code.)
>
>
> Huh, I didn't know about this. It's still too limited, though. At least
> they've
> duplicated a lot of the core gui elements on cli.

I dunno. That's everything I might possibly want a Windows system for.
DNS comes with AD. Their DHCP server is probably the best on the
market right now; it's the only common one[1] which handles DDNS
updates for IPv4 and IPv6 hosts in the same domain. Everything else, I
can easily do as-well-or-better on a Linux box.

Being able to be an AD controller on a stripped-down version of the
platform is also a plus, if you need to run in an AD environment. That
makes adding redundancy and load distribution cheaper.[2]

[1] That I know of; if anyone knows of a DHCP client for Linux which
handles DDNS updates for IPv4 and IPv6 in the same domain, I'd love to
hear about it. ISC's doesn't.
[2] Samba 4 can do this too, and I'm looking forward to seeing someone
sell Shiva Plugs with Samba 4 preinstalled. And, yeah, Samba 4 has had
some big news events this year.

>> >> Not that they won't be able to bolt one in easily enough; CSRSS means
>> >> they should be able to provide, e.g. an SSH daemon, give the
>> >> connecting user a PowerShell login session[1], and give it equal
>> >> privileges and security controls as they have for any other login
>> >> session.
>> >
>> > How many years have they had? I'd given up on this years ago.
>>
>> SFU is available in the "Server Core" configuration. I imagine you
>> could run OpenSSH under there. Or some commercial entity could come
>> along and provide an SSH+screen(ish) component to snap into the CSRSS
>> framework.
>
>
> I'd actually forgotten about that, I would never trust their implement
> though.
> Apparently there's a binary available of OpenSSH that runs on SFU (so says
> wiki [1]).
> I've been out of the Windows Server environment for a few years now, so I
> guess
> I've missed out on some of the progress MS has made in this area. It's good
> they
> are pushing the CLI now. Perhaps in a few releases they'll implement their
> own
> of encrypting telnet sessions with a screen/tmux lookalike. Microsoft never
> ceases to amaze me - with the good and the bad.

Where security concerns are relevant, I'd favor the implementation
which comes with security updates pushed through the platform vendor's
channel. With Debian, that means I avoid building my own packages. On
Gentoo, that means I keep up with Portage. On Windows, that means
using things which come through Microsoft Update. (Anything which
doesn't, I could probably replace with something running on a Linux
box. Again, this is a server context we're talking about.)

Also, did you know Windows domain environments support dynamic
application of IPSec-based security policies to enforce host patching
policies? Some awesome stuff. Got me wanting to learn enough to be
able to do the same thing using, e.g. Chef.[3]


[3] http://www.opscode.com/chef/

[snip]

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 19:06:30 schrieb Michael Mol:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> 
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 23:12:48 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> >> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
> >> 
> >> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> >> > > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> >> > > and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> >> > > smartphone market.
> >> > 
> >> > Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years
> >> > now.
> >> > 
> >> > Are we dead yet?
> >> 
> >> Fine comment.
> >> 
> >> Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
> >> desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all going to
> >> die out inthe next year. Not.
> > 
> > and in corporate speak that means Windows XP and Office 2003/2007
> > 
> > because they work, they don't get in the way of doing things, the people
> > are trained and nobody needs to smudge around on the screen,
> 
> The most effective way I can imagine for keeping me on-task: Force me
> to use a Windows XP workstation.
> 
> I won't be using _any_ personal credentials through the web browser or
> any other part of the system. I'm not taking that risk on a
> post-support version of Windows.

win xp is still supported.

have you ever dealt with 'standard office workers'? They want to use the same 
tools every freaking day. The icons on the same place. The menu items 
unchanged. The smallest change throws them off balance. Going from one office 
version to another - like 2000-2003 is a disaster. And while 2007&2010 are 
superior in every regard these people are helpless if you confront them with 
such drastic changes.

Now imagine an update to vista, win7 or win8

Not everybody is a computer geek.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[William Kenworthy]

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 00:00 +0300, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
> > and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
> > smartphone market.
> 
> Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15 years now.
> 
> Are we dead yet?
> 
> 

No, it only feels like it (... Sunday morning)

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Gnome3

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 2:22 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/16/2012 12:01 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> BTW, using GNOME 3 for more than one year in my laptop and desktop,
>> and I love it. I also want a tablet with it.
>
> Are you using any of the extensions Linus was discussing?

I'm using the "Remove Accessibility Extension", so the accessibility
icon doesn't appear in the top bar; the "Auto Move Windows Extension",
so Emacs is always in virtual desktop 1, Chrome in virtual desktop 2,
etc.; and the "Weather indicator Extension", to know that it's
raining. That's all the extensions I'm using; in my desktop I also use
"Alternative Status Menu Extension" to be able to hibernate (suspend
to disk) it: I can suspend to RAM just fine, but I like to save power.

I don't remember the extensions Linus mentioned.

> I'm using
> gnome3 in fallback mode because most of my machines are too old to
> have the hardware needed to run ghome-shell.  I haven't tried any
> gnome3 extensions yet on my one new machine that will run gnome-shell.

I have an nvidia card in my desktop, with the nouveau drivers. My
laptop uses a simple intel card; but run the full GNOME experience; I
actually don't like the fall back mode.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 03:13:50 +0200
Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 19:06:30 schrieb Michael Mol:
> > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> > 
> > <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012, 23:12:48 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> > >> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:00:04 +0300
> > >> 
> > >> Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > On 16/06/12 21:27, walt wrote:
> > >> > > I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively
> > >> > > soon and their customer base will vanish unless they capture
> > >> > > the smartphone market.
> > >> > 
> > >> > Ah yes, the death of the desktop PC, which is happening for 15
> > >> > years now.
> > >> > 
> > >> > Are we dead yet?
> > >> 
> > >> Fine comment.
> > >> 
> > >> Yes indeed, Microsoft's *real* cash cow - millions of corporate
> > >> desktops running $LATEST_WINDOWS and $LATEST_OFFICE are all
> > >> going to die out inthe next year. Not.
> > > 
> > > and in corporate speak that means Windows XP and Office 2003/2007
> > > 
> > > because they work, they don't get in the way of doing things, the
> > > people are trained and nobody needs to smudge around on the
> > > screen,
> > 
> > The most effective way I can imagine for keeping me on-task: Force
> > me to use a Windows XP workstation.
> > 
> > I won't be using _any_ personal credentials through the web browser
> > or any other part of the system. I'm not taking that risk on a
> > post-support version of Windows.
> 
> win xp is still supported.
> 
> have you ever dealt with 'standard office workers'? 

No, I haven't much. I refuse to deal with such people (because if I
have to they produce a reaction in me that gets me fired...)

But I have dealt with the tools they use

> They want to use
> the same tools every freaking day. 

You must mean the typical corporate bespoke app. You know the ones -
the apps that wraps the company's entire business logic and makes
business possible.

Now these apps are atrocious. The worst of the worst you will ever find
in the Android App Store is a beautiful model of efficiency compared to
the best bespoke corporate app out there.

The buttons go in the weirdest places. The workflow is bizarre. They
tend to make no bloody sense at all. But people have gotten used to the
save button in the lower left corner where it cannot be found, and
changing that crashes the entire business process for a week. If anyone
thinks I'm kidding, I assure you I am not.


> The icons on the same place. The
> menu items unchanged. The smallest change throws them off balance.
> Going from one office version to another - like 2000-2003 is a
> disaster. And while 2007&2010 are superior in every regard these
> people are helpless if you confront them with such drastic changes.

And an Office upgrade is a slick easy one to do. 

If Office upgrades cause such havoc, imagine what changing the bespoke
stuff does....

> 
> Now imagine an update to vista, win7 or win8
> 
> Not everybody is a computer geek.



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Gnome3

[William Kenworthy]

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 04:00 -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 2:22 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 06/16/2012 12:01 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> >> BTW, using GNOME 3 for more than one year in my laptop and desktop,
> >> and I love it. I also want a tablet with it.
> >
> > Are you using any of the extensions Linus was discussing?
> 
> I'm using the "Remove Accessibility Extension", so the accessibility
> icon doesn't appear in the top bar; the "Auto Move Windows Extension",
> so Emacs is always in virtual desktop 1, Chrome in virtual desktop 2,
> etc.; and the "Weather indicator Extension", to know that it's
> raining. That's all the extensions I'm using; in my desktop I also use
> "Alternative Status Menu Extension" to be able to hibernate (suspend
> to disk) it: I can suspend to RAM just fine, but I like to save power.
> 
> I don't remember the extensions Linus mentioned.
> 
> > I'm using
> > gnome3 in fallback mode because most of my machines are too old to
> > have the hardware needed to run ghome-shell.  I haven't tried any
> > gnome3 extensions yet on my one new machine that will run gnome-shell.
> 
> I have an nvidia card in my desktop, with the nouveau drivers. My
> laptop uses a simple intel card; but run the full GNOME experience; I
> actually don't like the fall back mode.
> 
> Regards.

The weather extension I am using is very inaccurate - if it says rain,
it could have at some point a few daya ago ... or in the future ... hard
to tell (for Western Australia).  There is no weather map/radar map.  At
least gnome2 displayed the metar data from the airport which is spot on.
This almost seems like a different location (though its actually common
for overseas sources of local weather data to be really way off - my
samsung galaxy phone is similar, and prior to that the apps on a nokia
n900 ... same).

The fonts are really screwed up - I have two gnome 3 systems, one after
trying to follow a few guides just looks crappy but I can read them, the
other (crt, not lcd) keeps getting corrupted (almost looks like it is
selecting wingdings or a chinese glyph font) so you have to log out/in
to be able to read things - nothing else seems to work.  Sometimes its
the titlebars or just desktop icon titles, other times the panels in
evolution and firefox, or everything.

Its quite unreliable on both systems, dropping dead (restarting X) or
requiring logging out/in or manually restarting X from a console to get
control at least once a day.

Then there is the new workflow model ... its crap!  The unbuntu folks at
work have been wrestling with it longer than me and seem lukewarm on the
whole thing even after having plenty of time to get used to it.  Then
there is the constant jibes from the windows users  - at least when win8
comes out I'll be able to laugh back at them (or is it cry along with
them :)

I am trying to persevere as its the "coming thing" ... that is, I
thought it would be until I tried it and realised its just a bad dream.
A lot of problems (lack of stability) are obviously bugs and will be
fixed.  The crappy extensions, ditto when someone gets around making
real ones instead of hacks to quickly fill the holes left by not having
any functionality built in (by the way, having an extension to restart
the shell because it gets corrupted is a prime example of whats wrong
with gnome at the moment :(  The extension installation via a browser
looks good until you start to think of the security implications ... it
feels very "apple-ish" in a bad kind of way - giving up control to a
third party you dont really know/trust.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Gnome3

[Paul Colquhoun]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:03:36 William Kenworthy wrote:

> The weather extension I am using is very inaccurate - if it says rain,
> it could have at some point a few daya ago ... or in the future ... hard
> to tell (for Western Australia).  There is no weather map/radar map.  At

Here is a weather radar for Perth, along with the local forcast.

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.shtml
http://www.bom.gov.au/wa/forecasts/map.shtml

More radar locations can be found at http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/radar/


-- 
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC.    http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
     Asking for technical help in newsgroups?  Read this first:
        http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
> Just in case anyone missed it:
> 
> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
> 
> Rgds,

reeading that and this thread:

as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0

I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then are 
covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Gnome3

[William Kenworthy]

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 20:24 +1000, Paul Colquhoun wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 18:03:36 William Kenworthy wrote:
> 
> > The weather extension I am using is very inaccurate - if it says rain,
> > it could have at some point a few daya ago ... or in the future ... hard
> > to tell (for Western Australia).  There is no weather map/radar map.  At
> 
> Here is a weather radar for Perth, along with the local forcast.
> 
> http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.shtml
> http://www.bom.gov.au/wa/forecasts/map.shtml
> 
> More radar locations can be found at http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/radar/
> 
> 

Been using those for years - along with scripts for screen scraping to
extract the image and insert it into the gnome2 weather app - cant find
a way do that with gnome 3, maybe I should pull the source and try and
make something that works, and is accurate ... need more hours in the
day tho.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[William Kenworthy]

On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 12:31 +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
> > Just in case anyone missed it:
> > 
> > https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
> > 
> > Rgds,
> 
> reeading that and this thread:
> 
> as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0
> 
> I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then are 
> covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.
> 

quick, pass the tin hat, someone can see me!

:)
BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alecks Gates]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>
>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>
>> Rgds,
>
> reeading that and this thread:
>
> as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0
>
> I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then are
> covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.
>
> --
> #163933
>

I must be really special since I'm completely productive and happy
with Gnome 3 . . . .

I'll need the tin hat, too.  Seems rather stylish, right now.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Alecks Gates <alecks.g@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
>>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>>
>>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>>
>>> Rgds,
>>
>> reeading that and this thread:
>>
>> as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0
>>
>> I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then are
>> covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.
>>
>> --
>> #163933
>>
>
> I must be really special since I'm completely productive and happy
> with Gnome 3 . . . .

Haven't you heard? Those of us who like GNOME 3 are nothing but
fanbois. Sorry to break the news to you; I didn't know either, and it
was also a shock to me.

I'm trying to live now a regular life knowing that I'm just a fanboi,
but I suppose it's hard, since we obviously don't know what the hell
are we doing if we like such a gigantic mess like GNOME 3 is.

(I *really* think I should not  have the need to said this, but just
to cover all the bases: All of the above is sarcasm.)

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 17/06/12 22:12, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Alecks Gates <alecks.g@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
>>>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>>>
>>>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>>>
>>>> Rgds,
>>>
>>> reeading that and this thread:
>>>
>>> as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0
>>>
>>> I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then are
>>> covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.
>>>
>>> --
>>> #163933
>>>
>>
>> I must be really special since I'm completely productive and happy
>> with Gnome 3 . . . .
>
> Haven't you heard? Those of us who like GNOME 3 are nothing but
> fanbois. Sorry to break the news to you; I didn't know either, and it
> was also a shock to me.
>
> I'm trying to live now a regular life knowing that I'm just a fanboi,
> but I suppose it's hard, since we obviously don't know what the hell
> are we doing if we like such a gigantic mess like GNOME 3 is.
>
> (I *really* think I should not  have the need to said this, but just
> to cover all the bases: All of the above is sarcasm.)
>
> Regards.

People using Gnome don't need to get upset because a website posts a 
review where KDE wins, or a high-profile community member like Torvalds 
bashes it.

Gnome sucks.  It sucks really, really bad.  But this is only the opinion 
of the one writing that statement.

Like fortune cookie told me when I logged in today:

   Opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one, but
   nobody wants to look at the other guy's.

                 -- Hal Hickman

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[Alecks Gates]

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/06/12 22:12, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Alecks Gates <alecks.g@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 23:57:26 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
>>>>>
>>>>> Just in case anyone missed it:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4I
>>>>>
>>>>> Rgds,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> reeading that and this thread:
>>>>
>>>> as a kde user it is refreshing to see that gnome3 is worse than KDE 4.0
>>>>
>>>> I hope all those arrogant gnome users who could not shut up back then
>>>> are
>>>> covering in some corner and crying in mental pain and humiliation.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> #163933
>>>>
>>>
>>> I must be really special since I'm completely productive and happy
>>> with Gnome 3 . . . .
>>
>>
>> Haven't you heard? Those of us who like GNOME 3 are nothing but
>> fanbois. Sorry to break the news to you; I didn't know either, and it
>> was also a shock to me.
>>
>> I'm trying to live now a regular life knowing that I'm just a fanboi,
>> but I suppose it's hard, since we obviously don't know what the hell
>> are we doing if we like such a gigantic mess like GNOME 3 is.
>>
>> (I *really* think I should not  have the need to said this, but just
>> to cover all the bases: All of the above is sarcasm.)
>>
>> Regards.
>
>
> People using Gnome don't need to get upset because a website posts a review
> where KDE wins, or a high-profile community member like Torvalds bashes it.
>
> Gnome sucks.  It sucks really, really bad.  But this is only the opinion of
> the one writing that statement.
>
> Like fortune cookie told me when I logged in today:
>
>  Opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one, but
>  nobody wants to look at the other guy's.
>
>                -- Hal Hickman
>
>

As near as I can tell, it's not the GNOME users that are upset but
rather the people bashing it.  It's almost like reverse trolling... I
can just sit here and nod my head while someone complains all day
long!

If you don't like it, fine.  Don't get yourself upset over it, not
that you, personally, are getting upset.

[gentoo-user] Re: OT: Linus ranting about Gnome3

[walt]

On 06/16/2012 12:01 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:27 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> FWIW, I recently tried Windows 8 beta (on virtualbox, of course)
>> and I found it unusable.  Why?  Because they are rushing to
>> catch up with gnome3.  Their new desktop looks very much like
>> a smartphone.
>>
>> I guess they figure the desktop will be extinct relatively soon
>> and their customer base will vanish unless they capture the
>> smartphone market.
> 
> Or they realized that the "old" users doesn't really matter, because
> what is important is the younger generation being raised using
> smartphones and tablets, and which play with Wii, Xbox Kinect or PS3
> Move. That's the important market, and the future.
> 
> BTW, using GNOME 3 for more than one year in my laptop and desktop,
> and I love it. I also want a tablet with it.

Well, now it becomes clear.  I just read that MS has officially
released Surface, its new Win8-powered tablet.