Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Randy Barlow]

Thanks for the reply! I agree that it is complicated, and that the direction of Gnome is mysterious. I've been using it at work, and I've enjoyed some things about it. Some other choices are puzzling. I'm interested to stick around to see where it will go.

[gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Would someone mind and take a look?

As mentioned in the former thread (I decided to start a new one) I can't
login to Gnome via gdm right now ... when running the system with
systemd (it worked before with openrc, could check back, yes ...).

I created a brand new user to rule that out, same behavior.

use-flags:

[I] gnome-base/gdm
     Available versions:  2.20.11-r1 [M](~)2.32.1-r1 (~)3.4.1-r3
(~)3.6.2 **9999[1] {accessibility afs audit branding +consolekit debug
dmx +fallback fprint gnome-keyring +gnome-shell +introspection ipv6 ldap
pam plymouth remote selinux smartcard systemd tcpd test xinerama
+xklavier ELIBC="glibc"}
     Installed versions:  3.6.2(22:49:57 28.01.2013)(fallback
gnome-shell introspection ipv6 systemd tcpd xinerama ....

[I] gnome-base/gnome-session
     Available versions:  2.32.1-r3 (~)3.4.2.1 (~)3.6.2 (~)3.6.2-r1
**9999[1] {debug doc gconf ipv6 systemd ELIBC="FreeBSD"}
     Installed versions:  3.6.2-r1(17:40:19 30.01.2013)(ipv6 systemd ....


The following log is from /var/log/messages ... I start gdm.service, try
to log in, get thrown back to the user selection (-> this is the
problem...) and stop gdm.service.

What I tried:

* downgraded accountsservice (found that mentioned:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1198455)

* fixed bluetooth.service (threw some errors, now ok afaik)

* rebuilt all around dbus, gdm, pulseaudio ... etc

* when I stop gdm, and start xdm.service I am able to log in and use
Gnome ...

-

Canek, maybe you have an idea?

Thanks in advance, Stefan

And here the log:

Jan 30 17:46:30 hiro root: START gdm
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Rejected send message, 1
matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.9" (uid=0 pid=5095
comm="/usr/bin/gdm --nodaemon ")
interface="org.freedesktop.DBus.Properties" member="GetAll" error
name="(unset)" requested_reply="0" destination=":1.10" (uid=0 pid=5097
comm="/usr/libexec/gdm-simple-slave --display-id /org/gn")
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro acpid: client 4884[0:0] has disconnected
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro acpid: client connected from 5101[0:0]
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro acpid: 1 client rule loaded
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro acpid: client connected from 5101[0:0]
Jan 30 17:46:36 hiro acpid: 1 client rule loaded
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro gdm-simple-slave[5097]: WARNING: Failed to give
slave programs access to the display. Trying to proceed.
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Activating via systemd:
service name='org.freedesktop.Accounts' unit='accounts-daemon.service'
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro accounts-daemon[5117]: started daemon version 0.6.22
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Successfully activated service
'org.freedesktop.Accounts'
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro gdm-launch-environment][5115]:
pam_unix(gdm-launch-environment:session): session opened for user gdm by
(uid=0)
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro gdm-launch-environment][5115]:
pam_ck_connector(gdm-launch-environment:session): nox11 mode, ignoring
PAM_TTY :0
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Activating via systemd:
service name='org.freedesktop.UPower' unit='upower.service'
Jan 30 17:46:37 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Successfully activated service
'org.freedesktop.UPower'
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata1: EH complete
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro pulseaudio[5191]: [pulseaudio] authkey.c: Failed to
open cookie file '/var/lib/gdm/.config/pulse/cookie': Datei oder
Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro pulseaudio[5191]: [pulseaudio] authkey.c: Failed to
load authorization key '/var/lib/gdm/.config/pulse/cookie': Datei oder
Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Activating via systemd:
service name='org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1' unit='rtkit-daemon.service'
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata2.00: configured for UDMA/133
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata2: EH complete
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata6.00: configured for UDMA/133
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: ata6: EH complete
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Successfully activated service
'org.freedesktop.RealtimeKit1'
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully called chroot.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully dropped privileges.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully limited resources.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Running.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Watchdog thread running.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Canary thread running.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully made thread 5194
of process 5194 (/usr/bin/pulseaudio) owned by '104' high priority at
nice level -11.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Supervising 1 threads of 1
processes of 1 users.
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (sdc2): re-mounted. Opts: commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (sdc3): re-mounted. Opts:
user_xattr,commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-0): re-mounted. Opts: commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-9): re-mounted. Opts:
user_xattr,commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-6): re-mounted. Opts:
user_xattr,commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-2): re-mounted. Opts: commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-5): re-mounted. Opts:
user_xattr,commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-4): re-mounted. Opts: commit=0
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: EXT4-fs (dm-1): re-mounted. Opts: commit=0
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully made thread 5237
of process 5194 (/usr/bin/pulseaudio) owned by '104' RT at priority 5.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Supervising 2 threads of 1
processes of 1 users.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully made thread 5238
of process 5194 (/usr/bin/pulseaudio) owned by '104' RT at priority 5.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Supervising 3 threads of 1
processes of 1 users.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Successfully made thread 5239
of process 5194 (/usr/bin/pulseaudio) owned by '104' RT at priority 5.
Jan 30 16:46:38 hiro rtkit-daemon[5195]: Supervising 4 threads of 1
processes of 1 users.
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Activating via systemd:
service name='org.bluez' unit='dbus-org.bluez.service'
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro bluetoothd[5240]: Bluetooth daemon 4.101
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Successfully activated service
'org.bluez'
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro bluetoothd[5240]: Starting SDP server
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: Core ver 2.16
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: NET: Registered protocol family 31
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: HCI device and connection
manager initialized
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: HCI socket layer initialized
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: L2CAP socket layer initialized
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: SCO socket layer initialized
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: BNEP (Ethernet Emulation) ver 1.3
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: BNEP filters: protocol multicast
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro kernel: Bluetooth: BNEP socket layer initialized
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro bluetoothd[5240]: Failed to open RFKILL control device
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro pulseaudio[5194]: [pulseaudio] authkey.c: Failed to
open cookie file '/var/lib/gdm/.config/pulse/cookie': Datei oder
Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
Jan 30 17:46:38 hiro pulseaudio[5194]: [pulseaudio] authkey.c: Failed to
load authorization key '/var/lib/gdm/.config/pulse/cookie': Datei oder
Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Activating via systemd:
service name='org.freedesktop.UDisks2' unit='udisks2.service'
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro udisksd[5270]: udisks daemon version 2.0.91 starting
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Successfully activated service
'org.freedesktop.UDisks2'
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro udisksd[5270]: Acquired the name
org.freedesktop.UDisks2 on the system message bus
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro polkitd[5057]: Registered Authentication Agent for
unix-session:c4 (system bus name :1.29 [gnome-shell --mode=gdm], object
path /org/freedesktop/PolicyKit1/AuthenticationAgent, locale de_DE.UTF-8')
Jan 30 17:46:39 hiro dbus[4643]: [system] Rejected send message, 2
matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.29" (uid=104 pid=5255
comm="gnome-shell --mode=gdm ")
interface="org.freedesktop.DBus.Properties" member="GetAll" error
name="(unset)" requested_reply="0" destination=":1.5" (uid=0 pid=4991
comm="/usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon --no-daemon ")
Jan 30 17:46:47 hiro gdm-password][5282]:
pam_unix(gdm-password:session): session opened for user sgw by
(unknown)(uid=0)
Jan 30 17:46:47 hiro gdm-password][5282]:
pam_ck_connector(gdm-password:session): nox11 mode, ignoring PAM_TTY :0
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gdm-simple-slave[5097]: GLib-GObject-CRITICAL:
g_object_ref: assertion `object->ref_count > 0' failed
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gnome-session[5126]: WARNING: Detected that
screensaver has left the bus
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gnome-session[5126]: CRITICAL:
gsm_manager_set_phase: assertion `GSM_IS_MANAGER (manager)' failed
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gnome-session[5126]: Gdk-WARNING: gnome-session:
Fatal IO error 11 (Die Ressource ist zur Zeit nicht verfügbar) on X
server :0.
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gdm-simple-slave[5097]: GLib-GObject-CRITICAL:
g_object_unref: assertion `object->ref_count > 0' failed
Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro polkitd[5057]: Unregistered Authentication Agent
for unix-session:c4 (system bus name :1.29, object path
/org/freedesktop/PolicyKit1/AuthenticationAgent, locale de_DE.UTF-8')
(disconnected from bus)
Jan 30 17:47:17 hiro root: STOP gdm

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2

[Hinnerk van Bruinehsen]

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 06:02:20PM +0100, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote:
> 
> Would someone mind and take a look?
> Fatal IO error 11 (Die Ressource ist zur Zeit nicht verfügbar) on X
> server :0.
> Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro gdm-simple-slave[5097]: GLib-GObject-CRITICAL:
> g_object_unref: assertion `object->ref_count > 0' failed
> Jan 30 17:47:09 hiro polkitd[5057]: Unregistered Authentication Agent
> for unix-session:c4 (system bus name :1.29, object path
> /org/freedesktop/PolicyKit1/AuthenticationAgent, locale de_DE.UTF-8')
> (disconnected from bus)
> Jan 30 17:47:17 hiro root: STOP gdm

I've just installed systemd on one of my systems to give it a test and I
had similar problems due to the systemd useflag on policykit being
hardmasked (it also pulled in consolekit because of that).
Since the errors are very similar you may check your useflags on
policykit and - if necessary remove the use-mask of systemd for
policykit.

WKR
Hinnerk

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 30.01.2013 18:36, schrieb Hinnerk van Bruinehsen:

> I've just installed systemd on one of my systems to give it a test and I
> had similar problems due to the systemd useflag on policykit being
> hardmasked (it also pulled in consolekit because of that).
> Since the errors are very similar you may check your useflags on
> policykit and - if necessary remove the use-mask of systemd for
> policykit.

Let me get that straight:

I have:

# cat profile/package.use.mask

media-sound/pulseaudio			-systemd
net-misc/networkmanager			-systemd
sys-auth/polkit				-systemd
sys-fs/udisks				-systemd
sys-power/upower			-systemd

because of some older thread or the gentoo wiki for systemd (can't
remember right now).

This gets me:

[I] sys-auth/polkit
     Available versions:  0.107-r1 0.110 {examples gtk +introspection
kde nls pam selinux systemd}
     Installed versions:  0.110(18:09:30 30.01.2013)(gtk introspection
nls pam systemd -examples -kde -selinux)

while I have USE= ... -consolekit systemd ... in make.conf.

I also get consolekit installed here:

[I] sys-auth/consolekit
     Available versions:  0.4.5_p20120320-r1 {acl debug doc pam
policykit selinux test KERNEL="linux"}
     Installed versions:  0.4.5_p20120320-r1(18:13:50 30.01.2013)(acl
pam policykit -debug -doc -selinux -test KERNEL="linux")

What exactly do you suggest now?

Thanks!

Stefan

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Stefan G. Weichinger <lists@xunil.at> wrote:
> Am 30.01.2013 18:36, schrieb Hinnerk van Bruinehsen:
>
>> I've just installed systemd on one of my systems to give it a test and I
>> had similar problems due to the systemd useflag on policykit being
>> hardmasked (it also pulled in consolekit because of that).
>> Since the errors are very similar you may check your useflags on
>> policykit and - if necessary remove the use-mask of systemd for
>> policykit.


As Hinnerk said, it could be a PolKit problem, but you said that you
had unmasked the systemd USE flag from PolKit. The new information I
see in this mail is that you have =gnome-base/gnome-session-9999
installed; why do you have a live version? Did you use --autounmask to
install GNOME?

I think that's the problem: gnome-session has no live version in the
tree; therefore you are installing it from the GNOME overlay. The live
version of gnome-session in the GNOME overlay doesn't use a specific
version, tag or branch to checkout, so depending on when you installed
it, it's possible you are running gnome-session-3.7.x.

I would keep gnome-session keyworded, but unmasked; that would force
the install of the 3.6.2 version. Also, if you have more live
versions, I would recommend downgrading them to the last 3.6.x
version. GNOME 3.6 is not masked in Gentoo, just keyworded.

> Let me get that straight:
>
> I have:
>
> # cat profile/package.use.mask
>
> media-sound/pulseaudio                  -systemd
> net-misc/networkmanager                 -systemd
> sys-auth/polkit                         -systemd
> sys-fs/udisks                           -systemd
> sys-power/upower                        -systemd
>
> because of some older thread or the gentoo wiki for systemd (can't
> remember right now).
>
> This gets me:
>
> [I] sys-auth/polkit
>      Available versions:  0.107-r1 0.110 {examples gtk +introspection
> kde nls pam selinux systemd}
>      Installed versions:  0.110(18:09:30 30.01.2013)(gtk introspection
> nls pam systemd -examples -kde -selinux)
>
> while I have USE= ... -consolekit systemd ... in make.conf.
>
> I also get consolekit installed here:
>
> [I] sys-auth/consolekit
>      Available versions:  0.4.5_p20120320-r1 {acl debug doc pam
> policykit selinux test KERNEL="linux"}
>      Installed versions:  0.4.5_p20120320-r1(18:13:50 30.01.2013)(acl
> pam policykit -debug -doc -selinux -test KERNEL="linux")
>
> What exactly do you suggest now?

If you have -consolekit, why it's still installed? What is pulling it
into your system? Can you do a "equery depends consolekit"?

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2

[Randy Barlow]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 581 bytes --]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> GNOME 3.6 is not masked in Gentoo, just keyworded.

Apologies for the slight thread hijack, but I've been curious if anyone
knows the current state of Gnome 3 in Gentoo? I'm currently on Gnome 2,
and I'm one of those weirdos who kind of likes Gnome 3 (it's not without
its faults). I also prefer to stick with stable when I can, but I've
been curious on how things are going with stabilization of Gnome 3. It's
kind of difficult to find information about this using Google, so I
thought I'd ask if any of you knew. Thanks!

-- 
R

[gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[walt]

On 02/12/2013 12:26 PM, Randy Barlow wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> GNOME 3.6 is not masked in Gentoo, just keyworded.
> 
> Apologies for the slight thread hijack, but I've been curious if anyone
> knows the current state of Gnome 3 in Gentoo?

Heh.  That's a complicated question, and I'm ready to give you a complicated
answer but I probably can't stay awake that long :)

Most important:  are you ready to suffer long hours of learning/debugging/hair-
pulling/screaming to help guide the future of gnome3?  Big question, and I'm
still trying to decide for myself after months of not deciding :)

I loved gnome2 and I wish for the good old days because every step the gnome3
devs have taken is a mystery to me.  They probably have a grand vision for the
future of the gnome desktop, but it's been nothing but a PITA for me because
along the way they've removed some features from apps that I use everyday for
important stuff like, scheduling/keeping appointments on time, etc.

In my arrogant opinion, gnome3 is betaware (just-barely-beyond-alphaware) and
you should 'up'grade only if you're willing to live with that excitement.

One little tidbit of good news (IMO) is that the gnome3 devs have decided to
maintain a 'legacy' gnome desktop for those of us who don't like gnome-shell,
which I definitely don't (but Canek definitely does).

I suggest you try the latest gnome3 liveCD in a virtual machine so you don't
have to risk your current gnome2 install.

It's a big step, and one you may want to postpone if you're not ready for
hard work and big headaches.

IOW, try gnome3 on a virtual machine first :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:23 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> IOW, try gnome3 on a virtual machine first :)

I think it would be easier if you tried a LiveCD:

http://www.gnome.org/getting-gnome/

For what is worth, I find myself more productive and much more at ease
with GNOME 3 than with GNOME 2 (or any other desktop, for that
matter). Every desktop/laptop computer I put my hands on, the first
thing I try to do is to press the windows key to get the overview;
it's really disappointing when it doesn't work and I realize I'm not
using GNOME 3.

I suggest to try the LiveCD; Walt seems to hate the shell and I love
it, but that's because is a matter of personal opinion. I hate KDE
(all four versions); that doesn't mean it's bad software, or that it
has the wrong design. It's just not for me.

Try it for a couple of weeks, and then decide if you want to try it;
we on the list can help you to get the keyworded version installed.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Alan McKinnon]

On 13/02/2013 06:13, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:23 PM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> IOW, try gnome3 on a virtual machine first :)
> 
> I think it would be easier if you tried a LiveCD:
> 
> http://www.gnome.org/getting-gnome/
> 
> For what is worth, I find myself more productive and much more at ease
> with GNOME 3 than with GNOME 2 (or any other desktop, for that
> matter). Every desktop/laptop computer I put my hands on, the first
> thing I try to do is to press the windows key to get the overview;
> it's really disappointing when it doesn't work and I realize I'm not
> using GNOME 3.
> 
> I suggest to try the LiveCD; Walt seems to hate the shell and I love
> it, but that's because is a matter of personal opinion. I hate KDE
> (all four versions); that doesn't mean it's bad software, or that it
> has the wrong design. It's just not for me.


Purely out of morbid curiosity, I've just spent an hour playing with the
Gnome 3 LiveCd in a VM.

What I'm seeing is a KDE4 ripoff, done badly, plus a few MacOS-isms and
some ideas from Unity:

- Highly generic launcher on the left, just like Unity.
- Click something, get big list of launchable apps in big "area" in
middle of screen, just like Unity.
- Go to settings, hey this looks *exactly* like KDE4 SystemSettings with
the useful stuff removed. Even the icon is the same!
- Contacts and IM settings integrated into the system just like KDE (but
actually that might be more Telepathy than KDE)
- Menu seems to magically morph into system taskbar, sort of like MacOS

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I really do not see the
point of Gnome3 at all. It has no identity of its own apart from the
recognizable icon set, that covers some of the look. The feel is as I
said very much copying KDE and some MacOS (just not enough MacOS to get
sued by Apple).

So what's the point of Gnome3?

If people like the Unity-ish bits, they should run Unity. Same with the
KDE and MacOS bits.

I'm happy to be shown to be wrong and to be shown where Gnome3 has merit
for being itself, where it can proudly stand on it's own. But I'm just
not seeing it yet


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Stroller]

On 13 February 2013, at 10:39, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> … 
> I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I really do not see the
> point of Gnome3 at all. It has no identity of its own … 
> 
> So what's the point of Gnome3?
> 
> If people like the Unity-ish bits, they should run Unity. Same with the
> KDE and MacOS bits.

Politics?

You know the history between Ubuntu / Unity and Gnome, don't you?

AIUI Ubuntu did a huge set of patches to Gnome to provide notifications, and they were rejected.

AIUI there was a big thing between Shuttleworth and some of the Gnome devs, with Shuttleworth saying that the patches were discussed with Gnome devs; Shuttleworth claimed they'd followed the Gnome devs' advisement, agreed the best way forward and notifications (and their API) had been implemented on the understanding they'd likely be accepted. However it was a couple of different Gnome devs that claimed responsibility for this area, and that they'd decided to do things differently, and that basically Ubuntu's work was an unwelcome code dump - thanks, but no thanks.

Thus Ubuntu made Unity, and Gnome carried on with doing it their way.

There were a couple of really long articles on Shuttleworth's blog about this at the time. They're actually really interesting reading, if you've got the time for an epic, an insight into the politics or "society" of OSS development. The impression I got was that there was some upset, but actually no-one had deceived anyone or stitched anyone else up, it was just a misunderstanding (or series of misunderstandings) due to the nature of the relationships / hierarchies involved in the two development groups. But I think Shuttleworth was a bit aggrieved and felt the only way to get what he wanted was to develop Unity in house, and Gnome wasn't going to stop what it was doing just because Ubuntu were doing something similar-but-different.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Alan McKinnon]

On 13/02/2013 13:36, Stroller wrote:
> 
> On 13 February 2013, at 10:39, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> … 
>> I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I really do not see the
>> point of Gnome3 at all. It has no identity of its own … 
>>
>> So what's the point of Gnome3?
>>
>> If people like the Unity-ish bits, they should run Unity. Same with the
>> KDE and MacOS bits.
> 
> Politics?
> 
> You know the history between Ubuntu / Unity and Gnome, don't you?
> 
> AIUI Ubuntu did a huge set of patches to Gnome to provide notifications, and they were rejected.
> 
> AIUI there was a big thing between Shuttleworth and some of the Gnome devs, with Shuttleworth saying that the patches were discussed with Gnome devs; Shuttleworth claimed they'd followed the Gnome devs' advisement, agreed the best way forward and notifications (and their API) had been implemented on the understanding they'd likely be accepted. However it was a couple of different Gnome devs that claimed responsibility for this area, and that they'd decided to do things differently, and that basically Ubuntu's work was an unwelcome code dump - thanks, but no thanks.
> 
> Thus Ubuntu made Unity, and Gnome carried on with doing it their way.
> 
> There were a couple of really long articles on Shuttleworth's blog about this at the time. They're actually really interesting reading, if you've got the time for an epic, an insight into the politics or "society" of OSS development. The impression I got was that there was some upset, but actually no-one had deceived anyone or stitched anyone else up, it was just a misunderstanding (or series of misunderstandings) due to the nature of the relationships / hierarchies involved in the two development groups. But I think Shuttleworth was a bit aggrieved and felt the only way to get what he wanted was to develop Unity in house, and Gnome wasn't going to stop what it was doing just because Ubuntu were doing something similar-but-different.


I do remember most of that, although I never read up on it in lots of
detail. It was something that was happening "over there" and I could
easily keep it out of my head space.

Unity has been shipping for ages now, what is it? 3 years at least?
And if my memory serves, Gnome 3 is *very* much more recent in a
shippable state. It certainly looks like Gnome is copy-catting, and
doing it badly.

I'm still struggling to see where Gnome figures it's going to fit in in
the world. What are the devs trying to build and what is their vision
for their project? Because I just don't see one at all. Saying things
like "we want to build a modern, functional, relevant desktop for todays
needs" is really just marketing crap, it tells you nothing. It's empty
vapid words devoid of meaning (if the sentence was a human it would be
the dumb blonde stereotype from sitcoms). Windows8 is modern,
functional, yadda yadda yadda...., for that matter so is Android Eclair.

All the progress I see from Gnome3 (and I get this only from blog posts
on the tubes) is that stuff is being ripped out and replaced with mostly
nothing. Take a file manager; I understand the concept of treating your
stuff on disk as meta-stuff and you just search for stuff, the desktop
tells you where your stuff is, even if it's in the cloud. But sometimes
the user really does want to view his stuff as actual files and folders.
So, err, where's the file manager?

Why is the system settings app a straight rip right out of KDE4? Even
the categories and names are recognizably the same. I would think
SystemSettings is the one major part of a desktop where Gnome would
*not* copy something else. If anything in a desktop needs to follow your
overall vision for the user, it would be that one.

So I dunno, I look at the project and what I'm seeing is a bunch of
folks with an aura of "we actually have no idea really what we are
doing..." I'm not saying that's the way it is, I'm saying that's the
conclusion I'm coming to based on what I see on the screen.

I'd still really like someone who groks what Gnome3 is all about to fill
in these blanks in my understanding with truthiness ;-)


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[walt]

On 02/13/2013 04:23 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> All the progress I see from Gnome3 (and I get this only from blog posts
> on the tubes) is that stuff is being ripped out and replaced with mostly
> nothing.

That's exactly my problem with gnome3 in a sentence.  I don't hate gnome-shell
as an interface, I hate it because some important (to me) stuff is missing and
if it's possible to get the missing stuff back, I don't know how to do it.

The gnome3 devs may intend to restore the missing stuff at some point, but I
don't know, and meanwhile I'm frustrated and my attitude is deteriorating.

Heh.  I should just go back to gentoo stable and keep using gnome2 for a year
until I'm ready to be frustrated again -- as I surely will be soon enough.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Paul Hartman]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:12 AM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/13/2013 04:23 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> All the progress I see from Gnome3 (and I get this only from blog posts
>> on the tubes) is that stuff is being ripped out and replaced with mostly
>> nothing.
>
> That's exactly my problem with gnome3 in a sentence.  I don't hate gnome-shell
> as an interface, I hate it because some important (to me) stuff is missing and
> if it's possible to get the missing stuff back, I don't know how to do it.
>
> The gnome3 devs may intend to restore the missing stuff at some point, but I
> don't know, and meanwhile I'm frustrated and my attitude is deteriorating.

This is giving me flashbacks to the threads from when KDE4 was first
released, people complaining about missing features from KDE3. A good
time was had by all. At least KDE4 proved that, if you can wait a few
years, most of those beloved features will probably be reimplemented
at some point, maybe. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd-197-r1 starts gdm-3.6.2 [now gnome3]

[Yohan Pereira]

On 13/02/13 at 12:39pm, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Purely out of morbid curiosity, I've just spent an hour playing with the
> Gnome 3 LiveCd in a VM.
> 
> What I'm seeing is a KDE4 ripoff, done badly, plus a few MacOS-isms and
> some ideas from Unity:
> 
> - Highly generic launcher on the left, just like Unity.
> - Click something, get big list of launchable apps in big "area" in
> middle of screen, just like Unity.
> - Go to settings, hey this looks *exactly* like KDE4 SystemSettings with
> the useful stuff removed. Even the icon is the same!
> - Contacts and IM settings integrated into the system just like KDE (but
> actually that might be more Telepathy than KDE)

I think gnome had this before though, empathy predating kde telepathy by
quite some time. Although I have no clue on how things were < kde4. 
The IM chat integreated into the shell thing was the only thing that 
caught my attention in gnome3 the one time I tried it. 

-- 

- Yohan Pereira

The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference
between a mermaid and a seal.
                -- Mark Twain