From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A88FB1382C5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 74743E0E03; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oo1-xc41.google.com (mail-oo1-xc41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E3CBE0DCE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oo1-xc41.google.com with SMTP id i4so1263458ooj.10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:26:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=VoqFXOyJTRSjB/JLf5Kw/8sFbqtvx/JKtAsn8x5epBo=; b=sgAdfzDZLfXqBGHSvZRgWJtvuPeykRaKQZNVnlHI8UOWvQD7muttdJ0z9FkwI25bq4 WvCB1/f2N149l8EvMzetGI4CmoRzcLDm0T2qSX/rXD00jZB0OpN6pzB0xO7YTBKG76Xb 5xSQv/vImm8RoPvDFcq58Kh+9F0wL/yxfOEOsL/abCT8IDPEh4G9YjlKepQ6IE/y2l/W QBW/j92nkxM5rQ6ysBBN57EfIHhZXbz6Mth0NP26NI0nykWsQx0N3kdtG/ilbYZBlW2i jpcM5CUqB41PeCsWOCWy/K/GGl82wUSTQ50eufFBdm2mkIUNCavHBtXTiVQ8KZUbkabY UPYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=VoqFXOyJTRSjB/JLf5Kw/8sFbqtvx/JKtAsn8x5epBo=; b=kklHdhV7e/KR3TE6bfOr9CLaoCCK5ZHZ1li/0M2fdrrQo+2vYAepTOm5bJNFOrzLYG aDbZOcF1HLmovwcgRRpwzNrfhhuy9WaJcPaxJJ1N1aVqRsKO9NQI/rDcAcH1AEteoYAB COX99zD9gby5jWlXiF7Kelqi2MB8zycDA45YYDg9y6HHxW0qvv0ofPbdI2K1p9RoeLYZ 98spX2rStA1SytJqf6NKtTneUv2Gs+AUxiBFuSCc6H9UfCRVLW5aAw15nC93Hy4eG+uv stKEv+Ju+0ECKo8Hw8TVTYkabyjrYKNWqX9cIJH3fNpNZRNX4hirEFCHfDASH8wMaH/4 lO1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531H7sllFV3RdyPUCCydIEvglfJUJtvNEDV/7Z/cuCiBcYhaVzv/ 1HLxOLFWCFHtZUJMOphmjb9qfqvz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwOne9njXWYs+s5rLrPwtjsGXu3pXzNmbmksg2cpN09sQ6HF52PdnqsJlgDIn4obT3RKKpl6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a4a:896e:: with SMTP id g43mr1908436ooi.13.1592306765027; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (adsl-074-188-241-018.sip.asm.bellsouth.net. [74.188.241.18]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a9sm2748551oon.38.2020.06.16.04.26.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Testing a used hard drive to make SURE it is good. To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <6d77acb3-5754-06cb-b8ef-2f1a5d7d8084@gmail.com> <5EE88146.1080208@youngman.org.uk> <5EE8A6C9.9020900@youngman.org.uk> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFxc7MgBEAC+zrgEdqJJiDe/UDAB+ScmferXWfJTVjbVT2T4DQ7jiLrgP9aNUo1HioNF mrU3JPOCR32gvZyTbY1+niO5+VSo/+pSqQ785h6ZDj1klMkrg6tEzGnf2MNBpBj4houZwxQ+ WDKKTg2M9F+lv8wTIdR/JQn+hSviktLMtrghQlyLhpapsLXWLA6gMFebpQYwxUwemvan8ddX lQvJe9FGyFYvBi0dp1gl10F2O+DVZJxvX8xkX+yImVlhVJiC31gXHRcj+Qlo7gprlU7TIieF Uow6/ZvYKJ26pztVdFCg5w0rMJkF/x8Zd4A6wnuptiAPmWaQ1+YKgYDonbDUgwqFSx5/lN5z DGZ4LlioxeUTTPVvZsqBIeDz6jNFA583OYbo1/S26dqrvTFf2DKlsvoDpVfAhNlwJPjoixs0 X3FNqPv+M10n4kq5Iz7Q9E3O4s/nfFIYGocEslVka7zZPkXSaHbsn+KJlY8XV6qxtCEdh0/V XX1+1aU2J74M0JikWhpwxTZ1dP5aOyWSPPEgFFIRW6xwwC02SoRH9a7mggfGYp/YjPlONNaT SCL8sgRfvmq3D0XTbLyTjSbExxkfKDmbePQagawDE3TlI/oivHf1JaAcbwMb3LZuU4TGcOIl 5D+x7q0MUIeCop0ZFOwAnqW3AVVNvsBkv2KN+IHJryWAf0/iMQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgWIQTZ7suruPBaS60bCYXvEM/XWu+ZnAUCXFzs yAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvEM/XWu+ZnN+7D/4/1dNG4aCz0+v+ 0dcjV5tY1feYEWCdHKyDzxWBxlCpd/0NPRQeNY4VMjbCl/sq7GkXi/c2SbfWDQ5BQRkkExG1 pSwuXSIehGok/4fpTi3HDAguRvzdCqlKPt7me05FyiC/WnpY5GOlJ3ruGw2qABv/RmV2q5b/ tkq7h1y1f16DTNr3/nsj8HzHcrHdXdL4kaYChSOe/dbQR9Stqak7eMyR+iwvrJMNF/CGl70P 2x5ybsXMDzRVOqNcpa5ZdhEMTVh6+vC1SOmm1BFMF8XCqBEvBbcHWDQmGYTdNCsS/ADm8CBl gvjJgLdIsAzoMu4WHQDFnzXAoArqFWgAf53isOS4AWrv29tF9b8Aa1vb7h5JEa+ArcMsA6Gl X38+GY6WXXaxKI9n3PTCWu9tPGnRh7mABjnwEosDDqmzw8aTAYECb3avDuGY2rmcjgh4H6RE w08d63j1T4d5J9wlm4TGtW/VHgbUFkATEdH3Acl/EjFiyqTiX7p8kU6Reu5enIkogA93xoQh Rmy7ZiST/5LN+ZkaOdyjIw0L+5KalslN9SKt809YxgJ6kPo657LNTFPiFvFA46/SEWcBYrzq Xk0wEW0gBRWf+BqN0qRhU0/EQ+QfRdLLFg2xtUePwlheYLXxfyDLrdCCOLWYpkzbjCZHLS4u 69smbvR9S9KBDNzJybxEWrkCDQRcXOzIARAA5IGRWTqaM44IJgBYghZg2fGj0Am7KWPhE7V7 T/EEe7vVSUEFqHtlHzI4ZK6Q0AZ9uAEjE8IJIQ7KoTjzNqAtabP0vp3s0szgtJlsZ+8vGKlQ my7fvzSrdoQL0Xn7CEwJYFXJ1EMUcYIQeoHG1cUAaXx73k9BFbjwjnUeMrqlV/ZovQlg7duW nESfQ7HZu5NrtYyY3jPMUouxiO9WQPh+IHxZbt1absF2VcvRAymD32RxGvMPbw6ChMRD/p9O 4PH7M5rXaxr78NXQX9E48vrI00f1cYb9NSN1HnSV8cW3jKObVjdBk6jPQwrMvdpgdQhUB9aZ HS/9mC9mmAgiXKyCpzXe7FPB6QznSfn4GIaC/luy1e6SLUkJhRK/niB+gq+Mfxg2zXNuDUTI cMGmpDCp3kgUoorkaltk8RW09io95BkXrGhcDNuSGZfAParBc7RXyYpbIcax8St7tEAd2oFh 4seYOPUlzuhGrPpqR/91wrFc4E1260GKauSr4UhMJv6tygBwyC0mmBMKi+ZXw6ZdZxA5fg7y 35P3TILjznCXXTDgRHq9A3NknKRMcgFacX6eIhANkMFo6oJVjuEgy1dvu1wFfDq7c+i8GAHu L4pYzyXYu6PporlNNU0xSwdVgzM/uuK0lt+UxCimgC+YR3IezgDcbfudb7h9dGIwL+bbPL0A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIBYhBNnuy6u48FpLrRsJhe8Qz9da75mcBQJcXOzIAhsMAAoJEO8Qz9da 75mcXZ4P/1YXgWDZek7mhzrf6uaQzMxa92P89HeWz4PlgB/32symeEFAV04WazzBZffI8AYY rGA1Xmu/2VaB9+FOODyKhUWBc2UL0NRWBk6POwboyTdKlclmpixaN9zLcBt0YLejoRfN1B/5 aQf9/lUDZMnAiCyz0FgeqEMUshldmwWC35RqnjrCbbuk2vIqSH6BLDIXU6jQrLHE1DF0ai41 wLtQFAFXPhn45n0ZwYhVs4Z32z4sjXrIvgBgCaXa4HM+L1Klne0KiNM8ReFTTpTE0SgyDOSZ O3MOa2n77i6JbVtsbiFYnNeP3J9S/l3jevGpZEtNQOKrIm1MW8jGuHWtsDeMkT/mCcSodlkt PxIo+mMK9GpGvG2hW80LiohqNfUbNwAmr3blOYY4URPXPRnEnPs4pmTmL5owjw2dkg145i9I D42Tq+XZ6YtWt3SGzGbAYow6XwTwZ5NFAzV9UQuCGrDw4KWan6O6Z+VIYWsn0UMZlu1Obxna aocofkaUCbISK26kImuD1aA8juSHC18Qv1xUage6/UakbSxyDtACqt6hOVFKX3IA59ApdNRT +2x3iCmlvF9MJsGgFq6IpqL+Fk7iWV8Kjbz0wQOId6N9+JdQh3LrLaS7a1PowUm1z9DK5/O0 Yg+gpDnEOOFI7WM5u7a7FSM2Z/LXGVwel/0eWvLk9tN6 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:26:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.2 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5EE8A6C9.9020900@youngman.org.uk> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5A18DC463C300CD78104E4E1" X-Archives-Salt: c910d0cf-6f9c-4ab1-bda3-42cd88eaa806 X-Archives-Hash: 7cc24ba86836d0d2d041bbbb3fe5880b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5A18DC463C300CD78104E4E1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wols Lists wrote: > On 16/06/20 10:04, Dale wrote: >> I might add, I don't have LVM on that drive. I read it does not work >> well with LVM, RAID etc as you say. Most likely, that drive will always >> be a external drive for backups or something. If it ever finds itself >> on the OS or /home, it'll be a last resort. > LVM it's probably fine with. Raid, MUCH less so. What you need to make > sure does NOT happen is a lot of random writes. That might make deleting > an lvm snapshot slightly painful ... > > But adding a SMR drive to an existing ZFS raid is a guarantee for pain. > I don't know why, but "resilvering" causes a lot of random writes. I > don't think md-raid behaves this way. > > But it's the very nature of raid that, as soon as something goes wrong > and a drive needs replacing, everything is going to get hammered. And > SMR drives don't take kindly to being hammered ... :-) > > Even in normal use, a SMR drive is going to cause grief if it's not > handled carefully. > > Cheers, > Wol >From what I've read, I agree.  Basically, as some have posted in different places, SMR drives are good when writing once and leaving it alone.  Basically, about like a DVD-R.  From what I've read, let's say I moved a lot of videos around, maybe moved the directory structure around, which means a lot of data to move.  I think I'd risk just putting a new file system on it and then backup everything from scratch.  It may take a little longer given the amount of data but it would be easier on the drive.  It would keep it from hammering as you put it that drive to death.  I've also read about the resilvering problems too.  I think LVM snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems.  I've also read that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying to rewrite the moved data too.  It gets so slow, it actually makes the OS not respond.  I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the conditions are right. I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers.  The part that seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those drives out there without telling people that they made changes that affect performance.  It's bad enough for people who use them where they work well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to bring them to their knees at times.  I can't count the number of times I've read that people support a class action lawsuit over shipping SMR without telling anyone.  It could happen and I'm not sure it shouldn't.  People using RAID and such, especially in some systems, they need performance not drives that beat themselves to death. My plan, avoid SMR if at all possible.  Right now, I just don't need the headaches.  The one I got, I'm lucky it works OK, even if it does bump around for quite a while after backups are done.  My new to me hard drive is still testing.  Got a few more hours left yet.  Then I'll run some more tests.  It seems to be OK tho.  Dale :-)  :-)  --------------5A18DC463C300CD78104E4E1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Wols Lists wrote:
On 16/06/20 10:04, Dale wrote:

I might add, I don't have LVM on that drive.  I read it does not work
well with LVM, RAID etc as you say.  Most likely, that drive will always
be a external drive for backups or something.  If it ever finds itself
on the OS or /home, it'll be a last resort. 

LVM it's probably fine with. Raid, MUCH less so. What you need to make
sure does NOT happen is a lot of random writes. That might make deleting
an lvm snapshot slightly painful ...

But adding a SMR drive to an existing ZFS raid is a guarantee for pain.
I don't know why, but "resilvering" causes a lot of random writes. I
don't think md-raid behaves this way.

But it's the very nature of raid that, as soon as something goes wrong
and a drive needs replacing, everything is going to get hammered. And
SMR drives don't take kindly to being hammered ... :-)

Even in normal use, a SMR drive is going to cause grief if it's not
handled carefully.

Cheers,
Wol

From what I've read, I agree.  Basically, as some have posted in different places, SMR drives are good when writing once and leaving it alone.  Basically, about like a DVD-R.  From what I've read, let's say I moved a lot of videos around, maybe moved the directory structure around, which means a lot of data to move.  I think I'd risk just putting a new file system on it and then backup everything from scratch.  It may take a little longer given the amount of data but it would be easier on the drive.  It would keep it from hammering as you put it that drive to death. 

I've also read about the resilvering problems too.  I think LVM snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems.  I've also read that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying to rewrite the moved data too.  It gets so slow, it actually makes the OS not respond.  I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the conditions are right.

I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers.  The part that seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those drives out there without telling people that they made changes that affect performance.  It's bad enough for people who use them where they work well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to bring them to their knees at times.  I can't count the number of times I've read that people support a class action lawsuit over shipping SMR without telling anyone.  It could happen and I'm not sure it shouldn't.  People using RAID and such, especially in some systems, they need performance not drives that beat themselves to death.

My plan, avoid SMR if at all possible.  Right now, I just don't need the headaches.  The one I got, I'm lucky it works OK, even if it does bump around for quite a while after backups are done. 

My new to me hard drive is still testing.  Got a few more hours left yet.  Then I'll run some more tests.  It seems to be OK tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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