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Sun, 09 Mar 2025 20:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.8.8] ([212.102.44.87]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e9e14a558f8ab-3d43b4e1928sm19845845ab.11.2025.03.09.20.32.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Mar 2025 20:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: problem formatting new 256 GB USB stick : glances at gparted To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <35c4444d-446e-d9ca-7ead-8129c0d77595@gmail.com> <6031675.MhkbZ0Pkbq@rogueboard> From: Dale Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBGFSciYBEADcEGMyJBSuavKO/XKUVvgkxck7Nl8Iuu8N2lcnRji/rSKg5c1Acix1ll9i oW8JBCHwvn0+Xy60BvEsqcup3YSHw5STl/bR1ePEehtnYrg8FdjdS91+B805RfnKMm69rFVI wLSBHQrSG1yxHd8CloWoEdhmVtP24buajbh114bgXd9ahtpZrCVMrWdWYUg2mEXguGV5uNAh Rf8SWxDNc79w24JxsV34a8niMUYMjzWr0rafIbzk732X38vGjVMLo/2mMpkbp9mPp++LHoY+ 0Pet8zxxdXPJSCd475kza1AD+hhSyBZXB9yknYWgyY3cZe1rGmooJSi2KX4QxO7npwLThcO1 be6KKRkd35+Fi/a1BzVOHsZMiK/gcwxEFoMd27gir4ehaeHJfFXl+65w4hj0EsOZSxrJrm2C R50g5By2czSKP1bADEygFNpIJj51AR+wM88NImG2RPtlT2maYBzazvF05g65cdHXGp1C7W5P wwwKU2DgABB2t7N7z5A69LnryBRw4zUYDRRYLTYlBlYgg+xILm2c0OrBdxJgLJa7JE50Eo25 d3PFwt9J0gYvqy6sPFLl9So0sDg9zm0hKQtXOP5kgropUFGrNoJI+mjwF4rYLRBVzZwNAvlO OhEvHubBo3mEllv4x+FeptwXZxlk7gUsdqI8AxnFB8K9wi6FVQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgCGyMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AW IQQSG1h01ruv/WNXc3Q3RqOgiQH1GwUCYVJy8gAKCRA3RqOgiQH1G+waEACeTZCt77jnRAmQ AV7otKuZekDWiLi3Eig8tj5ZJiCNSYA/hIxzmexRP0GMqjitcXK1iGwWcvMzzvIq30GAjIfB 4BR38cnXbtBa6fNewiT7QaZe/Hn6yBRldXNQypzbHy+/o27bUEy+oX4rE7etUgEHQAjuw7xz XFWg4tH1/KJvsOVY5upnWc5LdxYhsuQ3dQD4b22GsK0pOBDfb9PiirYM8eGKvrVuq4E/c75z lDDFhINl18lNZ9D0ZFL3IkTjHsAAqFH9uhnnEB8CWdHbBewPEfRaOhBUYWZ3Q8uTkmDgZT8q D9jlvLEdw7Nh2ApdxoepnI/4D+ql2Gr4DtH7SEPydr5gcf1Qr/2bXRb1hAYnIVcbncs/Bm3Z bkRKPVWMfE3Fusa+p5hMzixk0YysMaTHlc7mYRYAEZGnPMXnmcCbetwARU7A0yz1M1kCMOAQ Lsz8KH5kv3cRenMB6SFfjND2JfAK61H5TtnPq3L8noS2ZykRYxq9Nm3X64O1tJojIKBoZFr8 AwYNCvqC6puUyGMuzHPh7jPof8glfrrEKIYUvNPGMDoVX3IGetxh/9l6NcxgFA4JGoR+LS3C zmeNrwlllAe3OEUfKoWVQ+pagpSdM+8hHolaSda4Ys66Z3fCR4ZvcTqfhTAVskpqdXa4isAk 7vTcXu3L499ttywEp7rJTbkCDQRhUnImARAAncUdVhmtRr59zqpTUppKroQYlzR0jv8oa7DG K4gakTAT2N7evnI9wpssmzyVk8VEiLzhnFQ/Ol3FRt6hZCXDJt0clyHOyTfvz/MNFttWuZTc mLpSvmRR6VRjAH+Tz3Eam2xUw3PGuH97BcXQ3NnX3msv1UDxtxxBu6e2YrdeOhrCUSgzokcJ 98ChUNy934cgepPybAI12lSWqVFQ1aG7jExZfiUk+333fPSDbpKoZbTW5YJLXbycmW/C1IWL qYQyNjRWKaGoJtUWFhhmNiOQct7n90aKivNVPavmN+UQ9LlMaINtf9T6XCzLfogCFsulDCDJ 0yNQLDTurHaB4E71xoctgXmLLq9z1RQ0W2XiVAAOZQj6K3+d0AOUjDhCQ2QW8dUSq0ckkZXV DKVJOGS8Nhf2eIWIqRnP3AcUiiaiFGqUaVUmUAZ6h/oJmgghEu/1S+pcuUKU5i69+XCZ3hH2 Jzwzbf7K+FAIkOhCfHncF8i1N1pk00pOVykNnqHTfFo3qFusHt0ZWgXVnnn4pYdXqZNoDhvF BRE5Vm4k/k96Pw8HRx6Os6eFSRrlqGzRgqsu86FekxusXB9UGv4lJhtU/J+8MRWsh22K718s DbQnABicGKFz1qQlWvcf59oTByhLINJCBt1WXl+TzJDXepr3QSkqmK41dO9Hob97C9dMiK8A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIAIbDBYhBBIbWHTWu6/9Y1dzdDdGo6CJAfUbBQJhUnLyAAoJEDdGo6CJ AfUbVHIQAKSWw620vPhR3A/njU2z77F3z/Jk+HTKdE3fIyWSWdkYN7CBFL0NguOMP30WZ+qE sJhZu7T5hf251MwQUUt27xlfnKYOmQs7CqONlXuXlGZI6WufrUjxNcVz+5gJsqvUWuuJWsgg sDmE92IBnfG/f81fPHWQyfr/SF4wYDMyoFp5xCCQpp1zB63iuFvvrhxBkEHzmbRtVDOhl0Xp BVEDR1w3QRACw9QJD/KM05Czv9JNQYlwinWO/OaQ9cMlUpKLgswUPg9IZ5vucxScfuAUA5uC B1jlAQ8ZPlVukBmbEv5RGOv+lpuEbA3YDMVtEeH4YMFbjt/+vH3Cr2vTbp5JlpByLburJEH0 WXZLUawEfUsZvVwpOuJK75vaa2HYXee+Cb3iCIzwfIfctdlqzUcbGRczlRNM59hpvj4z29Gh 3kAxVHItAYq54ikxQ9l4hQ8s9sLYPbX/WtcBxNX8crBSw0FLnmzGleVEtBHyqtt5CLzQNgrj GYWl1vKDUmRPw1CdZ1c+fMN9CY11jOM5B5ZnqZWfDeVYO2iJ5SuvTycChexCb8WYn1bdCBIo bBtga2RBXbVt4Mh9E4owsszefn51MwfjXxB20Fc5k3GU1AVpTCMs3ayYCzo0b2pvEvdjtDcA CYLEFPWgaFX9iQAM/CDfKvTtvgGWpqtCL2raq/mQoJEU Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 22:32:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:128.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/128.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.20 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6031675.MhkbZ0Pkbq@rogueboard> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2B0EB0CB7B82BEE87ACAD5A1" X-Archives-Salt: f667aecd-6fff-4f95-ada5-7df335e2a2aa X-Archives-Hash: d960730b705c89d965270e9212084d4d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2B0EB0CB7B82BEE87ACAD5A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael wrote: > On Saturday, 8 March 2025 22:48:29 Greenwich Mean Time Dale wrote: >> Frank Steinmetzger wrote: >>> Am Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 11:40:48PM +0100 schrieb Frank Steinmetzger: >>>> Another thing to consider: don’t put it into the safe for a year without >>>> powering it up. As was explained in a previous mail, QLC uses sixteen >>>> different levels of charge inside one single flash cell. The chance of a >>>> bit flip increases the longer the SSD is powerless and charge slowly >>>> (very slowly) dissipates. It’s hard to find exact numbers, and it’s more >>>> of a statistical question. Could be a research topic for a slow Sunday. >>>> ;-) Also, don’t you live in a hot area? >>> I knew I’ve seen this data in the past, but couldn’t remeber where and in >>> what context. I just stumbled upon the relevant info again. >>> >>> If you search for "jedec temperature and data retention" you find this >>> PDF: >>> https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Alvin_Cox%20%5BCompatibility%20M >>> ode%5D_0.pdf >>> >>> It contains establised standard values for flash durability. On slide 28 >>> it >>> says: >>> Client-class SSDs should retain their data w/o power for 1 year if used >>> 8 hours/day at 40 °C and kept at or below 30 °C when off. >>> There is also a table for other temperatures; the time is cut in half for >>> 5 degrees more. >>> >>> Mind you, that PDF is 15 years old, TLS had just been released to the >>> public one year earlier according to >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_cell#Triple-level_cell >>> >>> -- Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’ Please do not share anything >>> from, with or about me on any social network. Some are so convinced, >>> they don’t even know anymore of what. >> That is confusing. Data should be OK for one year without power but >> only if powered 8 hours per day. Me scratches my head. Maybe it means >> should be OK for a year without power and not sure what to think about >> rest. > As I understand it these are two different performance requirements, which > were stipulated in this proposed standard back in 2010. > > The first, "Active Use (power on)", describes the level of performance on a > typical client workload and operating environment, 8hrs/day at 40°C. I don't > know if this is controller temperature, NAND flash cell temperature, device > sensor temperature, PC case temperature, or room temperature. The actual > standard document would explain this, as well as the method for measuring it. > Meanwhile, I note my NVMe SSD's sensor tells me the drive is idling at 45.8°C > as I write this. o_O > > The second, "Retention Use (power off)", sets a limit of 1 year @30°C. > > The FFR and UBER thresholds apply to *both* of the above. > They might should have explained both as two separate things instead of both in almost one sentence.  The way it sounded to me, it was about the same thing. >> I suspect that things have changed a lot in that time frame despite the >> confusion. They may have improved things significantly since then. > Hmm ... I wouldn't take this to the bank. Standards are typically formulated > following consultation with industry to establish the art of the possible, but > without cutting too much slack on manufacturers so as to promote innovation > and improvement. The manufacturers seek to minimise overall costs, while > keeping their head above the thresholds stated in the standard. So there's a > tension right there, which hopefully delivers innovation and ideally lowers > costs over time - but it does not necessarily improve performance. Check how > quality of USB flash drives has gone south over the years, following the > trajectory of their price. > > The move from SLC to QLC has been effective in reducing costs, but at some > point the limits of physics will constrain performance. It would be > interesting to dig out the latest JEDEC standard and compare thresholds to see > how they may have improved with more modern manufacturing methods. > I suspect SSD for m.2, 2.5" and such are still advancing as far as tech goes.  USB stuff is likely falling off, except maybe for the really large USB sticks and some major makers who still value quality.  >> Still, if the one year part, less the other part, is accurate then but >> better now, then my powering up even once a month should be OK. I only >> need to worry about if something happens to me and no one touches it for >> many months, a year or longer. > Given the temperature of the device would probably be below 30°C for at least > half of the year in day time and most nights, I would think your data will be > fine. :-) > > I have a 11 year old Toshiba OCZ SSD, which gave me a scare a week ago. It > reported an I/O error, dmesg showed it being inaccessible - I can't remember > the exact error. I thought it was game up with this drive, but surprisingly > following my reseating the SATA cable and a reboot later it has worked without > further complaints. With reports of OCZ drives failing at an alarming rate > more than a decade ago, I am happy it has lasted this long. I suspect it is safer than on a USB.  I believe that the old spinning rust is likely the most durable long term storage without powering up during storage.  I once hooked up a bunch of old IDE drives that hadn't had power to them in years.  I went poking around and all the data was still there.  It had some old videos, pictures, text files and other stuff.  They all appeared fine to me.  Those drives sat in a out building with no climate control at all.  Some were sitting on a shelf bare, no static bag or anything.  They stored just fine.  Heck, I was worried about the circuit boards more than anything.  Still, they worked.  Dale :-)  :-)  --------------2B0EB0CB7B82BEE87ACAD5A1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Michael wrote:
On Saturday, 8 March 2025 22:48:29 Greenwich Mean Time Dale wrote:

Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

Am Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 11:40:48PM +0100 schrieb Frank Steinmetzger:

Another thing to consider: don’t put it into the safe for a year without
powering it up. As was explained in a previous mail, QLC uses sixteen
different levels of charge inside one single flash cell. The chance of a
bit flip increases the longer the SSD is powerless and charge slowly
(very slowly) dissipates. It’s hard to find exact numbers, and it’s more
of a statistical question. Could be a research topic for a slow Sunday.
;-) Also, don’t you live in a hot area?

I knew I’ve seen this data in the past, but couldn’t remeber where and in
what context. I just stumbled upon the relevant info again.

If you search for "jedec temperature and data retention" you find this
PDF:
https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Alvin_Cox%20%5BCompatibility%20M
ode%5D_0.pdf

It contains establised standard values for flash durability. On slide 28
it
says:
Client-class SSDs should retain their data w/o power for 1 year if used
8 hours/day at 40 °C and kept at or below 30 °C when off.
There is also a table for other temperatures; the time is cut in half for
5 degrees more.

Mind you, that PDF is 15 years old, TLS had just been released to the
public one year earlier according to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_cell#Triple-level_cell

-- Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’ Please do not share anything
from, with or about me on any social network. Some are so convinced,
they don’t even know anymore of what.

That is confusing.  Data should be OK for one year without power but
only if powered 8 hours per day.  Me scratches my head.  Maybe it means
should be OK for a year without power and not sure what to think about
rest. 

As I understand it these are two different performance requirements, which 
were stipulated in this proposed standard back in 2010.

The first, "Active Use (power on)", describes the level of performance on a 
typical client workload and operating environment, 8hrs/day at 40°C.  I don't 
know if this is controller temperature, NAND flash cell temperature, device 
sensor temperature, PC case temperature, or room temperature.  The actual 
standard document would explain this, as well as the method for measuring it.  
Meanwhile, I note my NVMe SSD's sensor tells me the drive is idling at 45.8°C 
as I write this.  o_O

The second, "Retention Use (power off)", sets a limit of 1 year @30°C.

The FFR and UBER thresholds apply to *both* of the above.

They might should have explained both as two separate things instead of both in almost one sentence.  The way it sounded to me, it was about the same thing. 



        

          
I suspect that things have changed a lot in that time frame despite the
confusion.  They may have improved things significantly since then. 


        

        
Hmm ... I wouldn't take this to the bank.  Standards are typically formulated 
following consultation with industry to establish the art of the possible, but 
without cutting too much slack on manufacturers so as to promote innovation 
and improvement.  The manufacturers seek to minimise overall costs, while 
keeping their head above the thresholds stated in the standard.  So there's a 
tension right there, which hopefully delivers innovation and ideally lowers 
costs over time - but it does not necessarily improve performance.  Check how 
quality of USB flash drives has gone south over the years, following the 
trajectory of their price.

The move from SLC to QLC has been effective in reducing costs, but at some 
point the limits of physics will constrain performance.  It would be 
interesting to dig out the latest JEDEC standard and compare thresholds to see 
how they may have improved with more modern manufacturing methods.



      

    

    

    I suspect SSD for m.2, 2.5" and such are still advancing as far as
    tech goes.  USB stuff is likely falling off, except maybe for the
    really large USB sticks and some major makers who still value
    quality.  

    

    

    

      

        

        

          
Still, if the one year part, less the other part, is accurate then but
better now, then my powering up even once a month should be OK.  I only
need to worry about if something happens to me and no one touches it for
many months, a year or longer. 


        

        
Given the temperature of the device would probably be below 30°C for at least 
half of the year in day time and most nights, I would think your data will be 
fine.  :-)

I have a 11 year old Toshiba OCZ SSD, which gave me a scare a week ago.  It 
reported an I/O error, dmesg showed it being inaccessible - I can't remember 
the exact error.  I thought it was game up with this drive, but surprisingly 
following my reseating the SATA cable and a reboot later it has worked without 
further complaints.  With reports of OCZ drives failing at an alarming rate 
more than a decade ago, I am happy it has lasted this long.


      

    

    

    

    I suspect it is safer than on a USB.  I believe that the old
    spinning rust is likely the most durable long term storage without
    powering up during storage.  I once hooked up a bunch of old IDE
    drives that hadn't had power to them in years.  I went poking around
    and all the data was still there.  It had some old videos, pictures,
    text files and other stuff.  They all appeared fine to me.  Those
    drives sat in a out building with no climate control at all.  Some
    were sitting on a shelf bare, no static bag or anything.  They
    stored just fine.  Heck, I was worried about the circuit boards more
    than anything.  Still, they worked.  

    

    Dale 

    

    :-)  :-)  

  


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