From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CBA3138350 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:56:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCC1AE0BDF; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:55:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B064E0BAF for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:55:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id m14so686445oic.0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Uo3EE9uMhg8F4jBf/r/u8hcFZRXfTnA7aY658Ij+Amc=; b=KmjToY14gnbjBSrwsjd26V6UFZFx0NcGkmuzH2pjwGvZ9pU01mLsbYoEEKfWXRE4tK 6RTrTrGLXrkv4wlQwytRuKv8w12cUn53c/u/z2MRPQ64C/nQb02fMMzQLLW9ICDd+5w5 XZzGrzamt420o1vARuLnnBlH1X3pwB7ubFnZjmX6BkwrYlHR4ReQ0TlkdBwWgWjjzSVE nsGJlcstaoUz1Sw9o/499qyDWA8FBUmazUa9WpS01nGrhDg+vRtRVo0QmCPNJBFMfWtk OVuC11iAiVx/otOAGYStT0ZrWP0+zwFt2T4omZbkx4fvIxEzifl8+sOzT+QsiCntCL/U 3fCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Uo3EE9uMhg8F4jBf/r/u8hcFZRXfTnA7aY658Ij+Amc=; b=O9NzMpq//x5PEzbG5TCJvZIgNpymVWE8DLTB/GmGqiVV/rCDCL3itgqTB1tSUJv14d zxUmmQZpb2zC7+NKEJ94NsDCuwAxSL/oCeA6AtEEgQevY1dT94PDnYVMmpFJu3ak98mh SQg2FzZSpOEDh2TAGYaj3TzsAUwjvlRRc6/jhxzCp1TlBC/siOjS4b5R8YmQDvvzexVJ JCUVe7BiBP4hymoYDASRshKAhnaBcWdflZGmngVVO+XOKvNF3NBmj7bue1WLjJlOuj6X k6OcwFzg7vt657pKPls/xpI3BjNWbpkKTtxtIMz+SxbxB6QnGrVahd8abiR+7RZT5xlW cT/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub9847mS4KlTQYjYz214rXvzAyf4n9v0wgd6o9CH3vrtufEOce9 L8CYAzpcocKSVX5EtW2DgvY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJraqeYBm3r57irV2y8MB4ipyO9+eP77tBhjTiwkitPloC3ANCr3brb4gySdxog8yIqDiJLGA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:c70f:: with SMTP id x15mr5222393oif.80.1587524156522; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (adsl-074-188-240-152.sip.asm.bellsouth.net. [74.188.240.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r67sm1212315oie.19.2020.04.21.19.55.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead? To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <20200421165803.GB187193@redacted> <20200421183317.GC187193@redacted> <877dy8isdu.fsf@wedjat.horus-it.com> <20200421190035.GE187193@redacted> <8ca01aef-6df7-f4cb-7e37-5459a1009fbd@gmail.com> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFxc7MgBEAC+zrgEdqJJiDe/UDAB+ScmferXWfJTVjbVT2T4DQ7jiLrgP9aNUo1HioNF mrU3JPOCR32gvZyTbY1+niO5+VSo/+pSqQ785h6ZDj1klMkrg6tEzGnf2MNBpBj4houZwxQ+ WDKKTg2M9F+lv8wTIdR/JQn+hSviktLMtrghQlyLhpapsLXWLA6gMFebpQYwxUwemvan8ddX lQvJe9FGyFYvBi0dp1gl10F2O+DVZJxvX8xkX+yImVlhVJiC31gXHRcj+Qlo7gprlU7TIieF Uow6/ZvYKJ26pztVdFCg5w0rMJkF/x8Zd4A6wnuptiAPmWaQ1+YKgYDonbDUgwqFSx5/lN5z DGZ4LlioxeUTTPVvZsqBIeDz6jNFA583OYbo1/S26dqrvTFf2DKlsvoDpVfAhNlwJPjoixs0 X3FNqPv+M10n4kq5Iz7Q9E3O4s/nfFIYGocEslVka7zZPkXSaHbsn+KJlY8XV6qxtCEdh0/V XX1+1aU2J74M0JikWhpwxTZ1dP5aOyWSPPEgFFIRW6xwwC02SoRH9a7mggfGYp/YjPlONNaT SCL8sgRfvmq3D0XTbLyTjSbExxkfKDmbePQagawDE3TlI/oivHf1JaAcbwMb3LZuU4TGcOIl 5D+x7q0MUIeCop0ZFOwAnqW3AVVNvsBkv2KN+IHJryWAf0/iMQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgWIQTZ7suruPBaS60bCYXvEM/XWu+ZnAUCXFzs yAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvEM/XWu+ZnN+7D/4/1dNG4aCz0+v+ 0dcjV5tY1feYEWCdHKyDzxWBxlCpd/0NPRQeNY4VMjbCl/sq7GkXi/c2SbfWDQ5BQRkkExG1 pSwuXSIehGok/4fpTi3HDAguRvzdCqlKPt7me05FyiC/WnpY5GOlJ3ruGw2qABv/RmV2q5b/ tkq7h1y1f16DTNr3/nsj8HzHcrHdXdL4kaYChSOe/dbQR9Stqak7eMyR+iwvrJMNF/CGl70P 2x5ybsXMDzRVOqNcpa5ZdhEMTVh6+vC1SOmm1BFMF8XCqBEvBbcHWDQmGYTdNCsS/ADm8CBl gvjJgLdIsAzoMu4WHQDFnzXAoArqFWgAf53isOS4AWrv29tF9b8Aa1vb7h5JEa+ArcMsA6Gl X38+GY6WXXaxKI9n3PTCWu9tPGnRh7mABjnwEosDDqmzw8aTAYECb3avDuGY2rmcjgh4H6RE w08d63j1T4d5J9wlm4TGtW/VHgbUFkATEdH3Acl/EjFiyqTiX7p8kU6Reu5enIkogA93xoQh Rmy7ZiST/5LN+ZkaOdyjIw0L+5KalslN9SKt809YxgJ6kPo657LNTFPiFvFA46/SEWcBYrzq Xk0wEW0gBRWf+BqN0qRhU0/EQ+QfRdLLFg2xtUePwlheYLXxfyDLrdCCOLWYpkzbjCZHLS4u 69smbvR9S9KBDNzJybxEWrkCDQRcXOzIARAA5IGRWTqaM44IJgBYghZg2fGj0Am7KWPhE7V7 T/EEe7vVSUEFqHtlHzI4ZK6Q0AZ9uAEjE8IJIQ7KoTjzNqAtabP0vp3s0szgtJlsZ+8vGKlQ my7fvzSrdoQL0Xn7CEwJYFXJ1EMUcYIQeoHG1cUAaXx73k9BFbjwjnUeMrqlV/ZovQlg7duW nESfQ7HZu5NrtYyY3jPMUouxiO9WQPh+IHxZbt1absF2VcvRAymD32RxGvMPbw6ChMRD/p9O 4PH7M5rXaxr78NXQX9E48vrI00f1cYb9NSN1HnSV8cW3jKObVjdBk6jPQwrMvdpgdQhUB9aZ HS/9mC9mmAgiXKyCpzXe7FPB6QznSfn4GIaC/luy1e6SLUkJhRK/niB+gq+Mfxg2zXNuDUTI cMGmpDCp3kgUoorkaltk8RW09io95BkXrGhcDNuSGZfAParBc7RXyYpbIcax8St7tEAd2oFh 4seYOPUlzuhGrPpqR/91wrFc4E1260GKauSr4UhMJv6tygBwyC0mmBMKi+ZXw6ZdZxA5fg7y 35P3TILjznCXXTDgRHq9A3NknKRMcgFacX6eIhANkMFo6oJVjuEgy1dvu1wFfDq7c+i8GAHu L4pYzyXYu6PporlNNU0xSwdVgzM/uuK0lt+UxCimgC+YR3IezgDcbfudb7h9dGIwL+bbPL0A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIBYhBNnuy6u48FpLrRsJhe8Qz9da75mcBQJcXOzIAhsMAAoJEO8Qz9da 75mcXZ4P/1YXgWDZek7mhzrf6uaQzMxa92P89HeWz4PlgB/32symeEFAV04WazzBZffI8AYY rGA1Xmu/2VaB9+FOODyKhUWBc2UL0NRWBk6POwboyTdKlclmpixaN9zLcBt0YLejoRfN1B/5 aQf9/lUDZMnAiCyz0FgeqEMUshldmwWC35RqnjrCbbuk2vIqSH6BLDIXU6jQrLHE1DF0ai41 wLtQFAFXPhn45n0ZwYhVs4Z32z4sjXrIvgBgCaXa4HM+L1Klne0KiNM8ReFTTpTE0SgyDOSZ O3MOa2n77i6JbVtsbiFYnNeP3J9S/l3jevGpZEtNQOKrIm1MW8jGuHWtsDeMkT/mCcSodlkt PxIo+mMK9GpGvG2hW80LiohqNfUbNwAmr3blOYY4URPXPRnEnPs4pmTmL5owjw2dkg145i9I D42Tq+XZ6YtWt3SGzGbAYow6XwTwZ5NFAzV9UQuCGrDw4KWan6O6Z+VIYWsn0UMZlu1Obxna aocofkaUCbISK26kImuD1aA8juSHC18Qv1xUage6/UakbSxyDtACqt6hOVFKX3IA59ApdNRT +2x3iCmlvF9MJsGgFq6IpqL+Fk7iWV8Kjbz0wQOId6N9+JdQh3LrLaS7a1PowUm1z9DK5/O0 Yg+gpDnEOOFI7WM5u7a7FSM2Z/LXGVwel/0eWvLk9tN6 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:55:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.1 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------89EE6DDEEB7EB4A011EB054C" X-Archives-Salt: 49c8a261-218a-4b39-8f82-7efcea3e3ac3 X-Archives-Hash: 1b4d70f3b4c6dd7adf5855f368636256 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------89EE6DDEEB7EB4A011EB054C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rich Freeman wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale wrote: >> Then they created moderators with people to enforce some rules. It got better. Actually, a lot better. > That is actually really good to hear. The whole CoC/Proctors thing > has been a bit of a mess and incredibly contentious. It has also been > mostly inactive, in part because for the most part these threads have > actually done a pretty good job of moderating themselves. Maybe it is > because people fear moderation. Maybe it is because nobody really > wants to have to see us have to deal with it. Bugs get filed asking > for moderation, and maybe that is all it takes for the parties > involved to decide to cool things down. > > As much as some seem to think otherwise, the reality is that most of > the Proctors really don't like kicking that hornets nest. In any case > all Proctors actions are completely public in bugzilla so anybody can > see for themselves. If you don't see much it is because there isn't > actually much to see... > I admit, I don't monitor what they do much but I've seen a huge improvement.  I moderated a political site for a few years.  Still have access but health and life takes up a lot of time.  I always referred to it as herding cats.  You can herd up pretty much any animal, cows, pigs, sheep and the list goes on but herding cats is a tough thing to accomplish.  After being a moderator that has to deal with things that can be opinion with no one in the right or wrong, I know first hand how difficult and thankless the job can be.  Still, without it, it gets bad pretty fast.  I didn't like doing timeouts, banning and such either.  Thing is, when it needed doing, I did it.  I was the lead moderator for a good long while.  I think instead of dying, Gentoo is stronger even if it involves fewer people.  Sure, there is packages that need some attention but if they are in demand, usually someone steps up and gives them the attention they need to get back up to date. I'm not sure why people keep thinking Gentoo is dying.  Sometimes I think it is more about the difference between binary distros they are coming from and Gentoo being source based than Gentoo actually dying.  When people consider switching to Gentoo, it's different from what they expect.  They may need to research what Gentoo is first.  Gentoo certainly doesn't hold a persons hand during the install or even after the install.  Heck, I been around a long time and it doesn't hold my hand even today.  Compared to the bad times, -dev is like heaven today.  It was beyond words to describe during its worst days. Dale :-)  :-)  --------------89EE6DDEEB7EB4A011EB054C Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Rich Freeman wrote:
On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

Then they created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better.  Actually, a lot better.

That is actually really good to hear.  The whole CoC/Proctors thing
has been a bit of a mess and incredibly contentious.  It has also been
mostly inactive, in part because for the most part these threads have
actually done a pretty good job of moderating themselves.  Maybe it is
because people fear moderation.  Maybe it is because nobody really
wants to have to see us have to deal with it.  Bugs get filed asking
for moderation, and maybe that is all it takes for the parties
involved to decide to cool things down.

As much as some seem to think otherwise, the reality is that most of
the Proctors really don't like kicking that hornets nest.  In any case
all Proctors actions are completely public in bugzilla so anybody can
see for themselves.  If you don't see much it is because there isn't
actually much to see...

I admit, I don't monitor what they do much but I've seen a huge improvement.  I moderated a political site for a few years.  Still have access but health and life takes up a lot of time.  I always referred to it as herding cats.  You can herd up pretty much any animal, cows, pigs, sheep and the list goes on but herding cats is a tough thing to accomplish.  After being a moderator that has to deal with things that can be opinion with no one in the right or wrong, I know first hand how difficult and thankless the job can be.  Still, without it, it gets bad pretty fast.  I didn't like doing timeouts, banning and such either.  Thing is, when it needed doing, I did it.  I was the lead moderator for a good long while. 

I think instead of dying, Gentoo is stronger even if it involves fewer people.  Sure, there is packages that need some attention but if they are in demand, usually someone steps up and gives them the attention they need to get back up to date. I'm not sure why people keep thinking Gentoo is dying.  Sometimes I think it is more about the difference between binary distros they are coming from and Gentoo being source based than Gentoo actually dying.  When people consider switching to Gentoo, it's different from what they expect.  They may need to research what Gentoo is first.  Gentoo certainly doesn't hold a persons hand during the install or even after the install.  Heck, I been around a long time and it doesn't hold my hand even today. 

Compared to the bad times, -dev is like heaven today.  It was beyond words to describe during its worst days.

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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