From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119A91382C5 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:47:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EDF8AE0A01; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 161D9E09F3 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:47:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id n70so604566ota.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:47:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=B/D5nE2fZjJvgRbftQCeTnyVqmAA/mi847ZYpj9HvKA=; b=iK7yu2OkFeZeQ0Ftl899gKrgbt5VyAHDdB7KMRX6GYusbPEsWIn3VugpCOAKg4gNfr YIivOZU8LZn+DrhsLALaFGFPfxyJ+v3ka2t5aSa23v8R+umPAuonEIdznCZP2RRWxqpl xZgcnwqWQfB2l6+UTyo/cX0NscLfHAVVEPVVXgjsIpA7FlDAqUBTkpRajoJu3cuVUKM4 3UnX5AX+/6ydamE+b02DumDHPtm5PR5Dp0M0Y67QSEoOH4VzqbsFvJHcfqeQ7fSqTJpe 0rg7vxgmn4llv01v66QewjHjRjS34qXG0ZIlH5eKy7GJh+Mw1Q9+/CuMpwSY5gZ577q+ 3iLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=B/D5nE2fZjJvgRbftQCeTnyVqmAA/mi847ZYpj9HvKA=; b=U1JD0WafRcJupNSKCJQuYsy8SL9kClSAu6wrzndaEi8K3Y1oEPFGW3TjXQKu0pteo4 cFR/Ghbr2rqXrpxIGy+tT5HyXHq+7jULgE2vEmUTiDLdCx6BjHc+XE+CP8VF0CUHqOYE XXVeUr7cM/DpKIgqmEM44QfHUO0OxXadc/JiUX+yX1CR0YViEN1bBRSAhsGjyBPhTVdS ZBVx3hfX4YDqAzD7sOY1gKKQ26pdsNQ+9EiYnYgDEGhLqCPIENlC03zv2G9dkRr7fATj Ffnb2wV715j/GG9M9ZwOLM0Rxfz/mQN/IyeEn0vtqbRwu8JnXfChqLzNpCPTx8n5xpRq bsYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530T4GKgQSwPpKfZEDAph/3ubYdawv/N5EGppx6xbMStUB9hDtxy VBSf+J+WsbypR+0PqUi6Zqg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwyK42eXvGUU3hvdhHOMX2jlZogMAZ44i9cWhjvmU16c1N8eMsw3C51uDrQJG1mMG3LofJZVA== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ccb:: with SMTP id r11mr5648166otn.209.1592369264097; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (adsl-074-188-241-018.sip.asm.bellsouth.net. [74.188.241.18]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l9sm4601995oov.46.2020.06.16.21.47.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Testing a used hard drive to make SURE it is good. To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <6d77acb3-5754-06cb-b8ef-2f1a5d7d8084@gmail.com> <5EE88146.1080208@youngman.org.uk> <5EE8A6C9.9020900@youngman.org.uk> <78281567-5bc5-14e4-254a-b2373191bac8@youngman.org.uk> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFxc7MgBEAC+zrgEdqJJiDe/UDAB+ScmferXWfJTVjbVT2T4DQ7jiLrgP9aNUo1HioNF mrU3JPOCR32gvZyTbY1+niO5+VSo/+pSqQ785h6ZDj1klMkrg6tEzGnf2MNBpBj4houZwxQ+ WDKKTg2M9F+lv8wTIdR/JQn+hSviktLMtrghQlyLhpapsLXWLA6gMFebpQYwxUwemvan8ddX lQvJe9FGyFYvBi0dp1gl10F2O+DVZJxvX8xkX+yImVlhVJiC31gXHRcj+Qlo7gprlU7TIieF Uow6/ZvYKJ26pztVdFCg5w0rMJkF/x8Zd4A6wnuptiAPmWaQ1+YKgYDonbDUgwqFSx5/lN5z DGZ4LlioxeUTTPVvZsqBIeDz6jNFA583OYbo1/S26dqrvTFf2DKlsvoDpVfAhNlwJPjoixs0 X3FNqPv+M10n4kq5Iz7Q9E3O4s/nfFIYGocEslVka7zZPkXSaHbsn+KJlY8XV6qxtCEdh0/V XX1+1aU2J74M0JikWhpwxTZ1dP5aOyWSPPEgFFIRW6xwwC02SoRH9a7mggfGYp/YjPlONNaT SCL8sgRfvmq3D0XTbLyTjSbExxkfKDmbePQagawDE3TlI/oivHf1JaAcbwMb3LZuU4TGcOIl 5D+x7q0MUIeCop0ZFOwAnqW3AVVNvsBkv2KN+IHJryWAf0/iMQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgWIQTZ7suruPBaS60bCYXvEM/XWu+ZnAUCXFzs yAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvEM/XWu+ZnN+7D/4/1dNG4aCz0+v+ 0dcjV5tY1feYEWCdHKyDzxWBxlCpd/0NPRQeNY4VMjbCl/sq7GkXi/c2SbfWDQ5BQRkkExG1 pSwuXSIehGok/4fpTi3HDAguRvzdCqlKPt7me05FyiC/WnpY5GOlJ3ruGw2qABv/RmV2q5b/ tkq7h1y1f16DTNr3/nsj8HzHcrHdXdL4kaYChSOe/dbQR9Stqak7eMyR+iwvrJMNF/CGl70P 2x5ybsXMDzRVOqNcpa5ZdhEMTVh6+vC1SOmm1BFMF8XCqBEvBbcHWDQmGYTdNCsS/ADm8CBl gvjJgLdIsAzoMu4WHQDFnzXAoArqFWgAf53isOS4AWrv29tF9b8Aa1vb7h5JEa+ArcMsA6Gl X38+GY6WXXaxKI9n3PTCWu9tPGnRh7mABjnwEosDDqmzw8aTAYECb3avDuGY2rmcjgh4H6RE w08d63j1T4d5J9wlm4TGtW/VHgbUFkATEdH3Acl/EjFiyqTiX7p8kU6Reu5enIkogA93xoQh Rmy7ZiST/5LN+ZkaOdyjIw0L+5KalslN9SKt809YxgJ6kPo657LNTFPiFvFA46/SEWcBYrzq Xk0wEW0gBRWf+BqN0qRhU0/EQ+QfRdLLFg2xtUePwlheYLXxfyDLrdCCOLWYpkzbjCZHLS4u 69smbvR9S9KBDNzJybxEWrkCDQRcXOzIARAA5IGRWTqaM44IJgBYghZg2fGj0Am7KWPhE7V7 T/EEe7vVSUEFqHtlHzI4ZK6Q0AZ9uAEjE8IJIQ7KoTjzNqAtabP0vp3s0szgtJlsZ+8vGKlQ my7fvzSrdoQL0Xn7CEwJYFXJ1EMUcYIQeoHG1cUAaXx73k9BFbjwjnUeMrqlV/ZovQlg7duW nESfQ7HZu5NrtYyY3jPMUouxiO9WQPh+IHxZbt1absF2VcvRAymD32RxGvMPbw6ChMRD/p9O 4PH7M5rXaxr78NXQX9E48vrI00f1cYb9NSN1HnSV8cW3jKObVjdBk6jPQwrMvdpgdQhUB9aZ HS/9mC9mmAgiXKyCpzXe7FPB6QznSfn4GIaC/luy1e6SLUkJhRK/niB+gq+Mfxg2zXNuDUTI cMGmpDCp3kgUoorkaltk8RW09io95BkXrGhcDNuSGZfAParBc7RXyYpbIcax8St7tEAd2oFh 4seYOPUlzuhGrPpqR/91wrFc4E1260GKauSr4UhMJv6tygBwyC0mmBMKi+ZXw6ZdZxA5fg7y 35P3TILjznCXXTDgRHq9A3NknKRMcgFacX6eIhANkMFo6oJVjuEgy1dvu1wFfDq7c+i8GAHu L4pYzyXYu6PporlNNU0xSwdVgzM/uuK0lt+UxCimgC+YR3IezgDcbfudb7h9dGIwL+bbPL0A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIBYhBNnuy6u48FpLrRsJhe8Qz9da75mcBQJcXOzIAhsMAAoJEO8Qz9da 75mcXZ4P/1YXgWDZek7mhzrf6uaQzMxa92P89HeWz4PlgB/32symeEFAV04WazzBZffI8AYY rGA1Xmu/2VaB9+FOODyKhUWBc2UL0NRWBk6POwboyTdKlclmpixaN9zLcBt0YLejoRfN1B/5 aQf9/lUDZMnAiCyz0FgeqEMUshldmwWC35RqnjrCbbuk2vIqSH6BLDIXU6jQrLHE1DF0ai41 wLtQFAFXPhn45n0ZwYhVs4Z32z4sjXrIvgBgCaXa4HM+L1Klne0KiNM8ReFTTpTE0SgyDOSZ O3MOa2n77i6JbVtsbiFYnNeP3J9S/l3jevGpZEtNQOKrIm1MW8jGuHWtsDeMkT/mCcSodlkt PxIo+mMK9GpGvG2hW80LiohqNfUbNwAmr3blOYY4URPXPRnEnPs4pmTmL5owjw2dkg145i9I D42Tq+XZ6YtWt3SGzGbAYow6XwTwZ5NFAzV9UQuCGrDw4KWan6O6Z+VIYWsn0UMZlu1Obxna aocofkaUCbISK26kImuD1aA8juSHC18Qv1xUage6/UakbSxyDtACqt6hOVFKX3IA59ApdNRT +2x3iCmlvF9MJsGgFq6IpqL+Fk7iWV8Kjbz0wQOId6N9+JdQh3LrLaS7a1PowUm1z9DK5/O0 Yg+gpDnEOOFI7WM5u7a7FSM2Z/LXGVwel/0eWvLk9tN6 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:47:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.2 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <78281567-5bc5-14e4-254a-b2373191bac8@youngman.org.uk> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8B867A59B0DD2EAECDCEDE44" X-Archives-Salt: 800a8dd7-bf42-4c98-9592-91614c9734af X-Archives-Hash: 102b79ba52a22594e8fe8a40ab294529 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8B867A59B0DD2EAECDCEDE44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit antlists wrote: > On 16/06/2020 12:26, Dale wrote: >> I've also read about the resilvering problems too.  I think LVM >> snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems.  I've also read >> that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying >> to rewrite the moved data too.  It gets so slow, it actually makes >> the OS not respond.  I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the >> conditions are right. >> > Being all technical, what seems to be happening is ... > > Random writes fillup the PMR cache. The drive starts flushing the > cache, but unfortunately you need a doubly linked list or something - > you need to be able to find the physical block from the logical > address (for reading) and to find the logical block from the physical > address (for cache-flushing). So once the cache fills, the drive needs > "down time" to move stuff around, and it stops responding to the bus. > There are reports of disk stalls of 10 minutes or more - bear in mind > desktop drives are classed as unsuitable for raid because they stall > for *up* *to* *two* minutes ... > >> I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers.  The part >> that seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those >> drives out there without telling people that they made changes that >> affect performance.  It's bad enough for people who use them where >> they work well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to >> bring them to their knees at times.  I can't count the number of >> times I've read that people support a class action lawsuit over >> shipping SMR without telling anyone.  It could happen and I'm not >> sure it shouldn't.  People using RAID and such, especially in some >> systems, they need performance not drives that beat themselves to death. > > Most manufacturers haven't been open, but at least - apart from WD - > they haven't been stupid either. Bear in mind WD actively market their > Red drives as suitable for NAS or Raid, putting SMR in there was > absolutely dumb. Certainly in the UK, as soon as news starts getting > round, they'll probably find themselves (or rather their retailers > will get shafted with) loads of returns as "unfit for purpose". And, > basically, they have a legal liability with no leg to stand on because > if a product doesn't do what it's advertised for, then the customer is > *entitled* to a refund. > > Dunno why, I've never been a WD fan, so I dodged that bullet. I just > caught another one, because I regularly advise people they shouldn't > be running Barracudas, while running two myself ... :-) > > Cheers, > Wol > > >From what I've read, all the drive makers were selling SMR without telling anyone at first.  It wasn't just WD but Seagate as well.  There was another maker as well but can't recall what the brand was.  I want to say HGST but could have been something else.  I tend to like WD and Seagate and have had a couple Toshibas as well.  I've had a WD go bad but I've had a Seagate go bad too.  I'm of the mindset that most drives are good but on occasion, you hit a bad batch.  No matter what brand it is, there is a horror story out there somewhere.  I've been lucky so far.  It seems SMART catches that a drive is failing before it actually does.  I had one that gave the 24 hour warning and it wasn't kidding either.  Another just starting reporting bad spots.  I replaced it before it corrupted anything.  I've never lost data that I can recall tho.  I've read that if there is a lawsuit, the EU will likely be first and the easiest.  If you say something should work in a certain way and it doesn't, refund for sure.  Given the large scale of this, lawsuit is possible.  I'm no lawyer but I do think what the makers did in hiding this info is wrong.  It doesn't matter what brand it is, they should be honest about their products.  This is especially true for situations like RAID, NAS and other 24/7 systems.  Thing is, even my system falls into that category.  I run 24/7 here except during power failures.  LVM likely requires a better drive than a regular home type system that is only used a little each day.  Commercial type systems that are in heavy use, they require a really heavy duty components.  Claiming something is or leaving out info that shows they are not is not good.  They should have known it would bite them at some point.  People have far to many tools to test drives and uncover the truth.  Little update.  The drive passed its first SMART long test.  I started badblocks hours ago and it is almost done.  It's at 96% right now.  I think it lists bad blocks as it finds them and so far, it hasn't listed any.  I'll post the results when it is done.  So far, the drive I bought seems to be in very good condition.  Now to wait on the last little bit to finish.  Just hope it doesn't get right to the end and start blowing smoke.  :/ Dale :-)  :-)  --------------8B867A59B0DD2EAECDCEDE44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
antlists wrote:
On 16/06/2020 12:26, Dale wrote:
I've also read about the resilvering problems too.  I think LVM snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems.  I've also read that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying to rewrite the moved data too.  It gets so slow, it actually makes the OS not respond.  I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the conditions are right.

Being all technical, what seems to be happening is ...

Random writes fillup the PMR cache. The drive starts flushing the cache, but unfortunately you need a doubly linked list or something - you need to be able to find the physical block from the logical address (for reading) and to find the logical block from the physical address (for cache-flushing). So once the cache fills, the drive needs "down time" to move stuff around, and it stops responding to the bus. There are reports of disk stalls of 10 minutes or more - bear in mind desktop drives are classed as unsuitable for raid because they stall for *up* *to* *two* minutes ...

I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers.  The part that seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those drives out there without telling people that they made changes that affect performance.  It's bad enough for people who use them where they work well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to bring them to their knees at times.  I can't count the number of times I've read that people support a class action lawsuit over shipping SMR without telling anyone.  It could happen and I'm not sure it shouldn't.  People using RAID and such, especially in some systems, they need performance not drives that beat themselves to death.

Most manufacturers haven't been open, but at least - apart from WD - they haven't been stupid either. Bear in mind WD actively market their Red drives as suitable for NAS or Raid, putting SMR in there was absolutely dumb. Certainly in the UK, as soon as news starts getting round, they'll probably find themselves (or rather their retailers will get shafted with) loads of returns as "unfit for purpose". And, basically, they have a legal liability with no leg to stand on because if a product doesn't do what it's advertised for, then the customer is *entitled* to a refund.

Dunno why, I've never been a WD fan, so I dodged that bullet. I just caught another one, because I regularly advise people they shouldn't be running Barracudas, while running two myself ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol




From what I've read, all the drive makers were selling SMR without telling anyone at first.  It wasn't just WD but Seagate as well.  There was another maker as well but can't recall what the brand was.  I want to say HGST but could have been something else.  I tend to like WD and Seagate and have had a couple Toshibas as well.  I've had a WD go bad but I've had a Seagate go bad too.  I'm of the mindset that most drives are good but on occasion, you hit a bad batch.  No matter what brand it is, there is a horror story out there somewhere.  I've been lucky so far.  It seems SMART catches that a drive is failing before it actually does.  I had one that gave the 24 hour warning and it wasn't kidding either.  Another just starting reporting bad spots.  I replaced it before it corrupted anything.  I've never lost data that I can recall tho. 

I've read that if there is a lawsuit, the EU will likely be first and the easiest.  If you say something should work in a certain way and it doesn't, refund for sure.  Given the large scale of this, lawsuit is possible.  I'm no lawyer but I do think what the makers did in hiding this info is wrong.  It doesn't matter what brand it is, they should be honest about their products.  This is especially true for situations like RAID, NAS and other 24/7 systems.  Thing is, even my system falls into that category.  I run 24/7 here except during power failures.  LVM likely requires a better drive than a regular home type system that is only used a little each day.  Commercial type systems that are in heavy use, they require a really heavy duty components.  Claiming something is or leaving out info that shows they are not is not good.  They should have known it would bite them at some point.  People have far to many tools to test drives and uncover the truth. 

Little update.  The drive passed its first SMART long test.  I started badblocks hours ago and it is almost done.  It's at 96% right now.  I think it lists bad blocks as it finds them and so far, it hasn't listed any.  I'll post the results when it is done.  So far, the drive I bought seems to be in very good condition. 

Now to wait on the last little bit to finish.  Just hope it doesn't get right to the end and start blowing smoke.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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