From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EACE1382C5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A157AE0DE4; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ot1-x342.google.com (mail-ot1-x342.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::342]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 292D0E0D9A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:14:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-x342.google.com with SMTP id t6so15845936otk.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:14:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=eBieVJH6MTZCG9uWaRZClqK0tmMnrqyCH/K8At4UaxU=; b=PuHvB7j5NGugStMbsnpJN87I3BNmycdbK3QLFKrqCbrrktUbR902NmPDj1UEcY6FrU EfDOJIBTJZOaqDmlQKPJv9U7jCN6bRuLfOW6HXXlPX74pJK9tLAJmY74MOxTp/0P5avA b/ZkQq0TKJAaEgoi7ZL17T0RXRlSGTYglGNuh5uko1QjKEv720GMVTY4ut5gqYXTKuAF xTi4pM/v315g7eUmBwH2OuLWeQS4TETNu+sbotUiLxVz+DY9hrO/y51b1sMMATTE7dw0 D1TfwZ8M9sntYKo3jAEx9Hu6v8Z04TrwXc6FpcXgXilFfJaztvIrq44wIZgBl5+Y8Y5j zyuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=eBieVJH6MTZCG9uWaRZClqK0tmMnrqyCH/K8At4UaxU=; b=C8heycrFyV9GcNpKNp6aT4qz9+TOP3ia0aFunSre2xEfYjpyaVx1/6rn/jYYfefyDW c89uGOfwa5Ce/csL3GJROYOeJnv63kvL4t5wWJnwim8nH54w1rWjSRfV0m9zI+BFdtbs kwR+6wN75u3t6NfwLkvgeh3YtCyIdakdku6IvjXuRlAlVf+OWkqSsAVT2VulKhd8Rv5m 49tAo2Z8tGcWwzlKt4Oetcb9pttXyk23f0qX0QyI2sB0ZVcK2a3/rHQSEUnEx+6xn6ku jdWGII4GLMxIJxDH4H6wCzLEZQEmDppuQHzhX+VdiWaEkedMjg+us3bBJI2XyltxUZTi i8Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531apOLYzs0+/UUpCJhVUAS9zgw8n8LieaAoNNnykpsIh3KbW7xF 9b/QIiO0dfeD///JUsyNSF+axRks X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyzIFVA9WQ9D2k+d6KqWTxlvFWP9YkbF+9O5cGSMU1QpJcmBKMkwpDrpZQCZKV+jNxo/6PRQA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:18ce:: with SMTP id v14mr2093099ote.150.1592313244184; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (adsl-074-188-241-018.sip.asm.bellsouth.net. [74.188.241.18]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q27sm3990084ood.15.2020.06.16.06.14.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Testing a used hard drive to make SURE it is good. To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <6d77acb3-5754-06cb-b8ef-2f1a5d7d8084@gmail.com> <5EE8A6C9.9020900@youngman.org.uk> <5611481.lOV4Wx5bFT@lenovo.localdomain> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFxc7MgBEAC+zrgEdqJJiDe/UDAB+ScmferXWfJTVjbVT2T4DQ7jiLrgP9aNUo1HioNF mrU3JPOCR32gvZyTbY1+niO5+VSo/+pSqQ785h6ZDj1klMkrg6tEzGnf2MNBpBj4houZwxQ+ WDKKTg2M9F+lv8wTIdR/JQn+hSviktLMtrghQlyLhpapsLXWLA6gMFebpQYwxUwemvan8ddX lQvJe9FGyFYvBi0dp1gl10F2O+DVZJxvX8xkX+yImVlhVJiC31gXHRcj+Qlo7gprlU7TIieF Uow6/ZvYKJ26pztVdFCg5w0rMJkF/x8Zd4A6wnuptiAPmWaQ1+YKgYDonbDUgwqFSx5/lN5z DGZ4LlioxeUTTPVvZsqBIeDz6jNFA583OYbo1/S26dqrvTFf2DKlsvoDpVfAhNlwJPjoixs0 X3FNqPv+M10n4kq5Iz7Q9E3O4s/nfFIYGocEslVka7zZPkXSaHbsn+KJlY8XV6qxtCEdh0/V XX1+1aU2J74M0JikWhpwxTZ1dP5aOyWSPPEgFFIRW6xwwC02SoRH9a7mggfGYp/YjPlONNaT SCL8sgRfvmq3D0XTbLyTjSbExxkfKDmbePQagawDE3TlI/oivHf1JaAcbwMb3LZuU4TGcOIl 5D+x7q0MUIeCop0ZFOwAnqW3AVVNvsBkv2KN+IHJryWAf0/iMQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgWIQTZ7suruPBaS60bCYXvEM/XWu+ZnAUCXFzs yAIbIwULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvEM/XWu+ZnN+7D/4/1dNG4aCz0+v+ 0dcjV5tY1feYEWCdHKyDzxWBxlCpd/0NPRQeNY4VMjbCl/sq7GkXi/c2SbfWDQ5BQRkkExG1 pSwuXSIehGok/4fpTi3HDAguRvzdCqlKPt7me05FyiC/WnpY5GOlJ3ruGw2qABv/RmV2q5b/ tkq7h1y1f16DTNr3/nsj8HzHcrHdXdL4kaYChSOe/dbQR9Stqak7eMyR+iwvrJMNF/CGl70P 2x5ybsXMDzRVOqNcpa5ZdhEMTVh6+vC1SOmm1BFMF8XCqBEvBbcHWDQmGYTdNCsS/ADm8CBl gvjJgLdIsAzoMu4WHQDFnzXAoArqFWgAf53isOS4AWrv29tF9b8Aa1vb7h5JEa+ArcMsA6Gl X38+GY6WXXaxKI9n3PTCWu9tPGnRh7mABjnwEosDDqmzw8aTAYECb3avDuGY2rmcjgh4H6RE w08d63j1T4d5J9wlm4TGtW/VHgbUFkATEdH3Acl/EjFiyqTiX7p8kU6Reu5enIkogA93xoQh Rmy7ZiST/5LN+ZkaOdyjIw0L+5KalslN9SKt809YxgJ6kPo657LNTFPiFvFA46/SEWcBYrzq Xk0wEW0gBRWf+BqN0qRhU0/EQ+QfRdLLFg2xtUePwlheYLXxfyDLrdCCOLWYpkzbjCZHLS4u 69smbvR9S9KBDNzJybxEWrkCDQRcXOzIARAA5IGRWTqaM44IJgBYghZg2fGj0Am7KWPhE7V7 T/EEe7vVSUEFqHtlHzI4ZK6Q0AZ9uAEjE8IJIQ7KoTjzNqAtabP0vp3s0szgtJlsZ+8vGKlQ my7fvzSrdoQL0Xn7CEwJYFXJ1EMUcYIQeoHG1cUAaXx73k9BFbjwjnUeMrqlV/ZovQlg7duW nESfQ7HZu5NrtYyY3jPMUouxiO9WQPh+IHxZbt1absF2VcvRAymD32RxGvMPbw6ChMRD/p9O 4PH7M5rXaxr78NXQX9E48vrI00f1cYb9NSN1HnSV8cW3jKObVjdBk6jPQwrMvdpgdQhUB9aZ HS/9mC9mmAgiXKyCpzXe7FPB6QznSfn4GIaC/luy1e6SLUkJhRK/niB+gq+Mfxg2zXNuDUTI cMGmpDCp3kgUoorkaltk8RW09io95BkXrGhcDNuSGZfAParBc7RXyYpbIcax8St7tEAd2oFh 4seYOPUlzuhGrPpqR/91wrFc4E1260GKauSr4UhMJv6tygBwyC0mmBMKi+ZXw6ZdZxA5fg7y 35P3TILjznCXXTDgRHq9A3NknKRMcgFacX6eIhANkMFo6oJVjuEgy1dvu1wFfDq7c+i8GAHu L4pYzyXYu6PporlNNU0xSwdVgzM/uuK0lt+UxCimgC+YR3IezgDcbfudb7h9dGIwL+bbPL0A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIBYhBNnuy6u48FpLrRsJhe8Qz9da75mcBQJcXOzIAhsMAAoJEO8Qz9da 75mcXZ4P/1YXgWDZek7mhzrf6uaQzMxa92P89HeWz4PlgB/32symeEFAV04WazzBZffI8AYY rGA1Xmu/2VaB9+FOODyKhUWBc2UL0NRWBk6POwboyTdKlclmpixaN9zLcBt0YLejoRfN1B/5 aQf9/lUDZMnAiCyz0FgeqEMUshldmwWC35RqnjrCbbuk2vIqSH6BLDIXU6jQrLHE1DF0ai41 wLtQFAFXPhn45n0ZwYhVs4Z32z4sjXrIvgBgCaXa4HM+L1Klne0KiNM8ReFTTpTE0SgyDOSZ O3MOa2n77i6JbVtsbiFYnNeP3J9S/l3jevGpZEtNQOKrIm1MW8jGuHWtsDeMkT/mCcSodlkt PxIo+mMK9GpGvG2hW80LiohqNfUbNwAmr3blOYY4URPXPRnEnPs4pmTmL5owjw2dkg145i9I D42Tq+XZ6YtWt3SGzGbAYow6XwTwZ5NFAzV9UQuCGrDw4KWan6O6Z+VIYWsn0UMZlu1Obxna aocofkaUCbISK26kImuD1aA8juSHC18Qv1xUage6/UakbSxyDtACqt6hOVFKX3IA59ApdNRT +2x3iCmlvF9MJsGgFq6IpqL+Fk7iWV8Kjbz0wQOId6N9+JdQh3LrLaS7a1PowUm1z9DK5/O0 Yg+gpDnEOOFI7WM5u7a7FSM2Z/LXGVwel/0eWvLk9tN6 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:14:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.2 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5611481.lOV4Wx5bFT@lenovo.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D92FF9D1E47CF844B6E5963D" X-Archives-Salt: 4c8892ce-281c-4542-b125-4c76ab7a8043 X-Archives-Hash: 402eb737a59bc96d7b839d91a7d5d712 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D92FF9D1E47CF844B6E5963D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael wrote: > On Tuesday, 16 June 2020 12:26:01 BST Dale wrote: > >> From what I've read, I agree. Basically, as some have posted in >> different places, SMR drives are good when writing once and leaving it >> alone. Basically, about like a DVD-R. From what I've read, let's say I >> moved a lot of videos around, maybe moved the directory structure >> around, which means a lot of data to move. I think I'd risk just >> putting a new file system on it and then backup everything from >> scratch. It may take a little longer given the amount of data but it >> would be easier on the drive. It would keep it from hammering as you >> put it that drive to death. >> >> I've also read about the resilvering problems too. I think LVM >> snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems. I've also read >> that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying to >> rewrite the moved data too. It gets so slow, it actually makes the OS >> not respond. I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the conditions >> are right. >> >> I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers. The part that >> seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those drives >> out there without telling people that they made changes that affect >> performance. It's bad enough for people who use them where they work >> well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to bring them to >> their knees at times. I can't count the number of times I've read that >> people support a class action lawsuit over shipping SMR without telling >> anyone. It could happen and I'm not sure it shouldn't. People using >> RAID and such, especially in some systems, they need performance not >> drives that beat themselves to death. >> >> My plan, avoid SMR if at all possible. Right now, I just don't need the >> headaches. The one I got, I'm lucky it works OK, even if it does bump >> around for quite a while after backups are done. >> >> My new to me hard drive is still testing. Got a few more hours left >> yet. Then I'll run some more tests. It seems to be OK tho. >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) > Just to add my 2c's before you throw that SMR away, the use case for these > drives is to act as disk archives, rather than regular backups. You write > data you want to keep, once. SMR disks would work well for your use case of > old videos/music/photos you want to keep and won't be overwriting every other > day/week/month. Using rsync with '-c' to compare checksums will also make > sure what you've copied is as good/bad as the original fs source. I try to update about once a day, that way the changes or additions are fairly small.  On occasion tho, I find a better version of a video which means I have a new file and delete the old.  That may make it a little harder for the SMR drive but the amount of data, given my slow DSL, is not large enough to matter.  I think the biggest changes rsync has reported so far, about 4 or 5GBs or so.  My general process is like this.  I find a point where I can backup.  I power up the external drive, mount it using KDE's Device Notifier, use rsync to update the files and then unmount the drive with DN.  After that, I let it sit until I notice that it is not doing that bumping thing for a bit.  Sometimes that is a couple minutes, sometimes it is 10 or 15 minutes or so.  Generally, it isn't very long really.  Sometimes I go do something else, cook supper, mow the grass or whatever and cut it off when I get back.  In theory I could cut it off right after the backup is done and I've unmounted it.  Thing is, the changes will build up depending on how large the cache/buffer/whatever is that it stores as CMR.  From what I've read, it has a PMR/CMR section and then the rest is SMR.  It writes new stuff to the PMR/CMR section and when it has time, it moves it to the SMR parts.  It then does its rewrite thing with the shingles.  I'm sort of making it simple but that's what some have claimed it does.  Let's keep in mind, the drive I just bought in this thread is a PMR drive.  The SMR drive is one I've had a while in a external enclosure.  Most of the time, it holds my desk down and a stack of Blu-ray discs up.  That bumpy thing sometimes makes the discs fall off tho.  I need to clean my desk off, again.  While I wish my backup drive wasn't a SMR, at least it is acceptable in performance for what I'm using it for.  If I had spent money on that drive and put it on /home, then I'd be pretty upset.  We're talking steam and smoke upset.  It's not like these drives are $20 or $30 or something.  I got a good deal paying about $150 for this latest new to me drive.  Still, that's $150 that I don't want to waste on something that can't handle what I do.  Backup drive that is SMR, well, OK.  I'm not really pleased about it but it works OK.  Having it on /home where it could cause my system to freeze or something, well, that may remind me of the hal days.  I'm sure some recall me and my love for hal.  I don't like going there.  Moving on. Later on, I may run up on a deal and replace the drive and do something else with the SMR I got.  I'm not sure what but SMR is good for a couple things at least, sort of.  lol  May find a 10TB, or even a 12.  Who knows.  Time to go feed the deer.  They miss me when I don't go for a walk in the woods.  ;-) Dale :-)  :-)  --------------D92FF9D1E47CF844B6E5963D Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Michael wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 June 2020 12:26:01 BST Dale wrote:


From what I've read, I agree.  Basically, as some have posted in
different places, SMR drives are good when writing once and leaving it
alone.  Basically, about like a DVD-R.  From what I've read, let's say I
moved a lot of videos around, maybe moved the directory structure
around, which means a lot of data to move.  I think I'd risk just
putting a new file system on it and then backup everything from
scratch.  It may take a little longer given the amount of data but it
would be easier on the drive.  It would keep it from hammering as you
put it that drive to death. 

I've also read about the resilvering problems too.  I think LVM
snapshots and something about BTFS(sp?) has problems.  I've also read
that on windoze, it can cause a system to freeze while it is trying to
rewrite the moved data too.  It gets so slow, it actually makes the OS
not respond.  I suspect it could happen on Linux to if the conditions
are right.

I guess this is about saving money for the drive makers.  The part that
seems to really get under peoples skin tho, them putting those drives
out there without telling people that they made changes that affect
performance.  It's bad enough for people who use them where they work
well but the people that use RAID and such, it seems to bring them to
their knees at times.  I can't count the number of times I've read that
people support a class action lawsuit over shipping SMR without telling
anyone.  It could happen and I'm not sure it shouldn't.  People using
RAID and such, especially in some systems, they need performance not
drives that beat themselves to death.

My plan, avoid SMR if at all possible.  Right now, I just don't need the
headaches.  The one I got, I'm lucky it works OK, even if it does bump
around for quite a while after backups are done. 

My new to me hard drive is still testing.  Got a few more hours left
yet.  Then I'll run some more tests.  It seems to be OK tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Just to add my 2c's before you throw that SMR away, the use case for these 
drives is to act as disk archives, rather than regular backups.  You write 
data you want to keep, once.  SMR disks would work well for your use case of 
old videos/music/photos you want to keep and won't be overwriting every other 
day/week/month.  Using rsync with '-c' to compare checksums will also make 
sure what you've copied is as good/bad as the original fs source.


I try to update about once a day, that way the changes or additions are fairly small.  On occasion tho, I find a better version of a video which means I have a new file and delete the old.  That may make it a little harder for the SMR drive but the amount of data, given my slow DSL, is not large enough to matter.  I think the biggest changes rsync has reported so far, about 4 or 5GBs or so. 

My general process is like this.  I find a point where I can backup.  I power up the external drive, mount it using KDE's Device Notifier, use rsync to update the files and then unmount the drive with DN.  After that, I let it sit until I notice that it is not doing that bumping thing for a bit.  Sometimes that is a couple minutes, sometimes it is 10 or 15 minutes or so.  Generally, it isn't very long really.  Sometimes I go do something else, cook supper, mow the grass or whatever and cut it off when I get back. 

In theory I could cut it off right after the backup is done and I've unmounted it.  Thing is, the changes will build up depending on how large the cache/buffer/whatever is that it stores as CMR.  From what I've read, it has a PMR/CMR section and then the rest is SMR.  It writes new stuff to the PMR/CMR section and when it has time, it moves it to the SMR parts.  It then does its rewrite thing with the shingles.  I'm sort of making it simple but that's what some have claimed it does. 

Let's keep in mind, the drive I just bought in this thread is a PMR drive.  The SMR drive is one I've had a while in a external enclosure.  Most of the time, it holds my desk down and a stack of Blu-ray discs up.  That bumpy thing sometimes makes the discs fall off tho.  I need to clean my desk off, again. 

While I wish my backup drive wasn't a SMR, at least it is acceptable in performance for what I'm using it for.  If I had spent money on that drive and put it on /home, then I'd be pretty upset.  We're talking steam and smoke upset.  It's not like these drives are $20 or $30 or something.  I got a good deal paying about $150 for this latest new to me drive.  Still, that's $150 that I don't want to waste on something that can't handle what I do.  Backup drive that is SMR, well, OK.  I'm not really pleased about it but it works OK.  Having it on /home where it could cause my system to freeze or something, well, that may remind me of the hal days.  I'm sure some recall me and my love for hal.  I don't like going there.  Moving on.

Later on, I may run up on a deal and replace the drive and do something else with the SMR I got.  I'm not sure what but SMR is good for a couple things at least, sort of.  lol  May find a 10TB, or even a 12.  Who knows. 

Time to go feed the deer.  They miss me when I don't go for a walk in the woods.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 
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