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Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.8.6] ([107.179.20.190]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ds25-20020a0568705b1900b001723a2e84b6sm1967296oab.6.2023.03.15.15.36.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user]Computer build, was PCIe x1 or PCIe x4 SATA controller card To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <57322874-e9c0-2f2c-8994-43438fe72995@gmail.com> From: Dale Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rdalek1967@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBGFSciYBEADcEGMyJBSuavKO/XKUVvgkxck7Nl8Iuu8N2lcnRji/rSKg5c1Acix1ll9i oW8JBCHwvn0+Xy60BvEsqcup3YSHw5STl/bR1ePEehtnYrg8FdjdS91+B805RfnKMm69rFVI wLSBHQrSG1yxHd8CloWoEdhmVtP24buajbh114bgXd9ahtpZrCVMrWdWYUg2mEXguGV5uNAh Rf8SWxDNc79w24JxsV34a8niMUYMjzWr0rafIbzk732X38vGjVMLo/2mMpkbp9mPp++LHoY+ 0Pet8zxxdXPJSCd475kza1AD+hhSyBZXB9yknYWgyY3cZe1rGmooJSi2KX4QxO7npwLThcO1 be6KKRkd35+Fi/a1BzVOHsZMiK/gcwxEFoMd27gir4ehaeHJfFXl+65w4hj0EsOZSxrJrm2C R50g5By2czSKP1bADEygFNpIJj51AR+wM88NImG2RPtlT2maYBzazvF05g65cdHXGp1C7W5P wwwKU2DgABB2t7N7z5A69LnryBRw4zUYDRRYLTYlBlYgg+xILm2c0OrBdxJgLJa7JE50Eo25 d3PFwt9J0gYvqy6sPFLl9So0sDg9zm0hKQtXOP5kgropUFGrNoJI+mjwF4rYLRBVzZwNAvlO OhEvHubBo3mEllv4x+FeptwXZxlk7gUsdqI8AxnFB8K9wi6FVQARAQABtBtEYWxlIDxyZGFs ZWsxOTY3QGdtYWlsLmNvbT6JAk4EEwEIADgCGyMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AW IQQSG1h01ruv/WNXc3Q3RqOgiQH1GwUCYVJy8gAKCRA3RqOgiQH1G+waEACeTZCt77jnRAmQ AV7otKuZekDWiLi3Eig8tj5ZJiCNSYA/hIxzmexRP0GMqjitcXK1iGwWcvMzzvIq30GAjIfB 4BR38cnXbtBa6fNewiT7QaZe/Hn6yBRldXNQypzbHy+/o27bUEy+oX4rE7etUgEHQAjuw7xz XFWg4tH1/KJvsOVY5upnWc5LdxYhsuQ3dQD4b22GsK0pOBDfb9PiirYM8eGKvrVuq4E/c75z lDDFhINl18lNZ9D0ZFL3IkTjHsAAqFH9uhnnEB8CWdHbBewPEfRaOhBUYWZ3Q8uTkmDgZT8q D9jlvLEdw7Nh2ApdxoepnI/4D+ql2Gr4DtH7SEPydr5gcf1Qr/2bXRb1hAYnIVcbncs/Bm3Z bkRKPVWMfE3Fusa+p5hMzixk0YysMaTHlc7mYRYAEZGnPMXnmcCbetwARU7A0yz1M1kCMOAQ Lsz8KH5kv3cRenMB6SFfjND2JfAK61H5TtnPq3L8noS2ZykRYxq9Nm3X64O1tJojIKBoZFr8 AwYNCvqC6puUyGMuzHPh7jPof8glfrrEKIYUvNPGMDoVX3IGetxh/9l6NcxgFA4JGoR+LS3C zmeNrwlllAe3OEUfKoWVQ+pagpSdM+8hHolaSda4Ys66Z3fCR4ZvcTqfhTAVskpqdXa4isAk 7vTcXu3L499ttywEp7rJTbkCDQRhUnImARAAncUdVhmtRr59zqpTUppKroQYlzR0jv8oa7DG K4gakTAT2N7evnI9wpssmzyVk8VEiLzhnFQ/Ol3FRt6hZCXDJt0clyHOyTfvz/MNFttWuZTc mLpSvmRR6VRjAH+Tz3Eam2xUw3PGuH97BcXQ3NnX3msv1UDxtxxBu6e2YrdeOhrCUSgzokcJ 98ChUNy934cgepPybAI12lSWqVFQ1aG7jExZfiUk+333fPSDbpKoZbTW5YJLXbycmW/C1IWL qYQyNjRWKaGoJtUWFhhmNiOQct7n90aKivNVPavmN+UQ9LlMaINtf9T6XCzLfogCFsulDCDJ 0yNQLDTurHaB4E71xoctgXmLLq9z1RQ0W2XiVAAOZQj6K3+d0AOUjDhCQ2QW8dUSq0ckkZXV DKVJOGS8Nhf2eIWIqRnP3AcUiiaiFGqUaVUmUAZ6h/oJmgghEu/1S+pcuUKU5i69+XCZ3hH2 Jzwzbf7K+FAIkOhCfHncF8i1N1pk00pOVykNnqHTfFo3qFusHt0ZWgXVnnn4pYdXqZNoDhvF BRE5Vm4k/k96Pw8HRx6Os6eFSRrlqGzRgqsu86FekxusXB9UGv4lJhtU/J+8MRWsh22K718s DbQnABicGKFz1qQlWvcf59oTByhLINJCBt1WXl+TzJDXepr3QSkqmK41dO9Hob97C9dMiK8A EQEAAYkCNgQYAQgAIAIbDBYhBBIbWHTWu6/9Y1dzdDdGo6CJAfUbBQJhUnLyAAoJEDdGo6CJ AfUbVHIQAKSWw620vPhR3A/njU2z77F3z/Jk+HTKdE3fIyWSWdkYN7CBFL0NguOMP30WZ+qE sJhZu7T5hf251MwQUUt27xlfnKYOmQs7CqONlXuXlGZI6WufrUjxNcVz+5gJsqvUWuuJWsgg sDmE92IBnfG/f81fPHWQyfr/SF4wYDMyoFp5xCCQpp1zB63iuFvvrhxBkEHzmbRtVDOhl0Xp BVEDR1w3QRACw9QJD/KM05Czv9JNQYlwinWO/OaQ9cMlUpKLgswUPg9IZ5vucxScfuAUA5uC B1jlAQ8ZPlVukBmbEv5RGOv+lpuEbA3YDMVtEeH4YMFbjt/+vH3Cr2vTbp5JlpByLburJEH0 WXZLUawEfUsZvVwpOuJK75vaa2HYXee+Cb3iCIzwfIfctdlqzUcbGRczlRNM59hpvj4z29Gh 3kAxVHItAYq54ikxQ9l4hQ8s9sLYPbX/WtcBxNX8crBSw0FLnmzGleVEtBHyqtt5CLzQNgrj GYWl1vKDUmRPw1CdZ1c+fMN9CY11jOM5B5ZnqZWfDeVYO2iJ5SuvTycChexCb8WYn1bdCBIo bBtga2RBXbVt4Mh9E4owsszefn51MwfjXxB20Fc5k3GU1AVpTCMs3ayYCzo0b2pvEvdjtDcA CYLEFPWgaFX9iQAM/CDfKvTtvgGWpqtCL2raq/mQoJEU Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:36:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.15 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archives-Salt: 03d5b1ac-bc4a-47e9-ac34-7dea3cedb8fe X-Archives-Hash: aa93169af096ab82a87506ef217d5215 Frank Steinmetzger wrote: > Am Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 07:45:25AM -0500 schrieb Dale: >> Mark Knecht wrote: >>>> Another question.  My rig is getting a bit aged.  I have a AMD FX-8350 8 >>>> core CPU running at 4GHz.  I also have 32GBs of memory.  I've read that >>>> Intel currently has the best bang for buck on CPUs nowadays.  I'm open >>>> to the idea of switching.  As far as speed goes, if I built a new rig >>>> that is using a reasonably cost CPU and memory, would I see any real >>>> improvements? >>> I think it all depends on what you're going to use the machine for and >>> whether you really use all your CPU for extended periods of time.  > This! My mini PC with its passive 10 W Celeron N5100 is enough for desktop > use, including encrypted storage. But maybe not for Gentoo. :) > >>> […] >>> PixInsight has a benchmark program built in and all the results >>> are open to look at: >>> >>> https://pixinsight.com/benchmark/index.php?sort=cpu&os=all >>> >>> Interestingly I didn't find your processor even on the list > That’s probably because the FX processors are ooooold. Old and hungry. ^^ > >> Sometimes a CPU that costs $500 can only be just a fraction faster than a >> $200 CPU. > That’s still the case today for those impatient gamer enthusiasts who are > after the “longest bars” [in benchmarks]. The same goes for power > consumption. With Zen 4, AMD of course launched the fastest X-processors > first with a gargantuan power demand. A few months later the non-X were > released. They used 40 % or so less power at a performance cost of maybe 10 > % (not actual numbers, but figuratively speaking from memory). > >> Given that my rig, as you point >> out, sits here and waits on me to do something most of the time, that's >> a lot of money for something I won't see much time savings on.  I might >> add tho, I do sometimes convert videos from 1080p to 720p.  That makes >> the CPU max out pretty good.  Compiling Libreoffice, Firefox etc also >> maxes out the CPU but those are what, once a month or so??? > Intel and AMD are giving themselves quite a race these days about who offers > more bang for the buck, or rather, more bang. In the past, Intel used to > have more to offer at the lower end (below 100 € CPUs, like Pentiums and > i3’s, while AMD was milking the market with high-end chips due to their > limited manufacturing capacities). > > If you want to save money and aim for a low-cost AMD APU (processor with > integrated graphics), you can get an older 3000-series Ryzen for a two-digit > price. It’ll still be much faster than your old FX at a fraction of the > power consumption. Like the 4300G, which is twice as fast for half the > electricity. With today’s processors, basically none of the socktetable > models are too slow unless you have specific performance requirements. > > With each generation, the architecture becomes more efficient, meaning more > instructions per cycle, lower consumption and so on. The max frequency is > not really the driving force behind performance increase anymore due to > efficiency issues at higher frequencies. > > Here are some benchmark comparisons from cpubenchmark.net: > > Processor year power cores single-core score multi-core score > FX-8350 2012 125 W 8/8 1580 6026 > i5-4590 2014 84 W 4/4 2086 5356 > i5-10400 2020 65 W 6/12 2580 12258 > R3 4300G 2020 65 W 4/8 2557 11017 > R5 5600G 2021 65 W 6/12 3185 19892 > R5 7600X 2022 145 W 6/12 4213 28753 > > Sources: > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html#desktop-thread > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+FX-8350+Eight-Core&id=1780 > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-4590+%40+3.30GHz&id=2234 > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-10400+%40+2.90GHz&id=3737 > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+3+4300G&id=3808 > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+5600G&id=4325 > https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+7600X&id=5033 > > You can see the increase in performance. My old i5-4590, at half the cores, > can keep up with your FX, even though it is only 1½ years younger. Ryzens > used to be more efficient in multi workloads (look at the 2020 entries). But > I’m not too sure about current generations due to Intel’s big-little > concept. > DDR5 and PCIe5 have higher requirements at signal quality, making the boards > and components much more expensive (and, again, more power hungry). That’s > why, even though DDR4 platforms are on their way out technologically, they > are still an economically sound choice. > >> I was also wondering what a mobo/CPU/memory combo would cost nowadays.  >> Maybe someone who recently built a decent rig recalls how much they paid >> for those three.  I don't go cheap on power supply but I don't require a >> lot for a video card or anything.  Some spend half their money on a >> video card alone but I just don't need anything that fancy. > Any current Intel non-F CPU (F means no graphics) can cover your graphics > need. Finally, AMD caught up and started shipping a minimal graphics chip in > all of their processors with Zen 4, but as I said, that platform is still > expensive. > >> I got a Nvidia GeForce GTX 650 that drives both my monitor and my TVs >> through a splitter and it does just fine. > How cute. This should be about twice as fast as the integrated graphics in > my 8-year-old i5. So you’ll be fine with *any* integrated graphics (which > will also cut down on idle consuption, compared with a dGPU). > >> This is some good info tho.  Maybe someone who built a rig recently can >> chime in on costs, US dollar would be nice.  ;-) > As mentioned, DDR5 is still expensive. With DDR4 platforms getting older, > their prices are going down. The Ryzen 5 5600G is an excellent and efficient > processor (it’s basically a laptop chip in a desktop socket) and currently > can be had for around 125 € (including taxes of course, not sure about US > prices). It has over twice the single- and thrice the multi-core performance > of your FX chip. Its graphics are way overkill for you, but you never know. > ;-) > If you want to keep yout GPU, there’s also the Ryzen 5 5500, it has no > graphics and is only minutely slower than the 5600G, but can be had for less > than 100 €. > > > So, in summary (talking German consumer prices, meaning all taxes included, > but I think you can assume very similar $ pricse) for a not too fancy¹ system: > > Processor 120 € (or up top 150 € for a current i3/i5) > RAM 60 € 32 GB DDR4 (cheap RAM, low latency costs more, but has no real use > for your use case) > Board 100..120 € depending on I/O needs and quality. > > Going DDR5 means an increase in budget by at least 100 € for a 32 GB system. > > > ¹ As far as I can see, compiling packages is the most taxing thing you do, > which is why I don’t see you needing a big-rig processor. (Though I > understand the nice feeling you get from having one.) > This is all good info.  I went to Tom's Hardware and found their list by computing power.  I try to find a generic power rating since what I use my rig for is more generic.  No need looking at a chart for gaming.  ;-)  Anyway, I was looking at a somewhat costly Ryzen 7 5800x3d or a Ryzen 7 7700.  I need to look at the details because I like having my own video card.  That way I can use Nvidia but switch to something else if the need should arise.  Plus, if the video stops working, replace card instead of whole mobo.  I also have to have two outputs.  One for desktop, one for TV.  Based on your info tho, I could go down more in price and still have a much better CPU than the current one. One other thing, the mobos I keep finding have few PCIe slots.  Some have 2 maybe 3.  That's getting to be to few for me.  I have a ethernet card, SATA expansion card plus a couple other things in mine that I use.  Then my next thing, a case.  The cases I find have a ton of lights, which I hate, but as far as layout and such, they suck.  Some cost a arm and leg and they are worthless to me.  I found one the other day that is fairly plain, holds 8 or 10 hard drives and has reasonably good cooling.  I'm hoping I can get it.  I don't think even Cooler Master makes a case like what I got anymore.  I need more drive space but I love the cooling of my current case.  The fans don't spin very fast but they move a LOT of air, quietly.  Usually I look forward to building a new rig.  Trying to find things I like takes the fun out of it.  I'll get there tho.  Eventually.  Thanks for all the info.  It helps me to know if I build a new rig, I will see a benefit speed wise.  I want to get something out of it.  lol Dale :-)  :-)