[gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Alan E. Davis]

Having been (mostly happily) using Ubuntu for a number of months I
yearn to install Gentoo again.  Tried a beta release of Gentoo 2008.0,
and was pleased, at least to be able to boot and not have the
confusion about naming HDDs, and using Grub was simpler.  Now, as I
approach the Live CD installer (AMD64) some problems are keeping me at
bay.

Now, however, I've tried three or four times to install on an existing
partition.  Grub will not install over the ubuntu grub, or else
something else is crazy.  After a 2 hour preparation the last time
around, emerging the extra packages, the system just stopped, and when
at long last I finally rebooted, it was back to Ubuntu.

May I ask a few questions?

  -  Live CD only installs over a clean partition.  How can I resume
an installation?

  -  I only have a unsupported atheros wifi card for connection.  I've
been using it for years.  No easy way to connect by wire.  Any ideas?

  -  I have an 80GB fast SATA drive and three slower 7000 RPM drives.
What partitions are best kept on the fast drive to maximize
performance (I have basically an all purpose workstation).  My /home
will be about 100GB: is it wiser to split it up into a smaller core
/home with several slower archive and storage partitions (Library,
Project archives, Videos, Music)?

  - Advice about UUIDs?  I lost a partition (a large one) over a
misidentification of a partition when the Ubuntu scheme started
swapping around names of devices.  Old /dev/hda became /dev/sda and
old /dev/sda became /dev/sdb.  What a mess that turned out to be.

For now this will be enough.

Alan

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Mick]

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On Monday 21 July 2008, Alan E. Davis wrote:

> May I ask a few questions?

Of course you may.  Please start a new thread and address it to 
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.  What you have done is hit the reply button to 
an existing thread titled "Warning: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set 
to C" and just changed the title (but not the message headers).  This is 
called "thread hijacking" and in most mail and news clients shows up 
underneath the original thread which has nothing to do with your installation 
questions.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dirk Heinrichs]

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Mick schrieb:
> On Monday 21 July 2008, Alan E. Davis wrote:
> 
>> May I ask a few questions?
> 
> Of course you may.  Please start a new thread and address it to 
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.  What you have done is hit the reply button to 
> an existing thread titled "Warning: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set 
> to C" and just changed the title (but not the message headers).

No, he did not. There's no "In-Reply-To" header in his mail.

Bye...

	Dirk



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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Monday 21 July 2008, Alan E. Davis wrote:
>
>   
>> May I ask a few questions?
>>     
>
> Of course you may.  Please start a new thread and address it to 
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.  What you have done is hit the reply button to 
> an existing thread titled "Warning: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set 
> to C" and just changed the title (but not the message headers).  This is 
> called "thread hijacking" and in most mail and news clients shows up 
> underneath the original thread which has nothing to do with your installation 
> questions.
>   

It seems to have shown up here as a new thread.  Something odd going on 
with your email Mick or is it me, again?  o_O

Dale

:-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Alan E. Davis schrieb:

> Now, however, I've tried three or four times to install on an existing
> partition.  Grub will not install over the ubuntu grub, or else
> something else is crazy.

Why do you do this at all? Grub is already in your MBR, so why bother
with it again?

> May I ask a few questions?
> 
>   -  Live CD only installs over a clean partition.  How can I resume
> an installation?

Boot the CD again, perform the steps to mount your already created
filesystems (incl. bind-mount of /proc and/dev, enter chroot and start
with (or after) the last step you finished before.

>   -  I only have a unsupported atheros wifi card for connection.  I've
> been using it for years.  No easy way to connect by wire.  Any ideas?

On x86 they're supported by madwifi, isn't this true for amd64?

>   -  I have an 80GB fast SATA drive and three slower 7000 RPM drives.
> What partitions are best kept on the fast drive to maximize
> performance (I have basically an all purpose workstation).

I don't think you'll see much difference. However, with a setup like
this, I would look into using LVM or EVMS logical volumes eventually
combined with a software RAID5 over the three slower discs (in case
they're equal in size.

  My /home
> will be about 100GB: is it wiser to split it up into a smaller core
> /home with several slower archive and storage partitions (Library,
> Project archives, Videos, Music)?

I usually use one LV for each user's ~ (/home/johndoe, not /home). This
way, I can increase size for each user individually w/o having to setup
quota. I can even use different filesystems depending on users needs
(i.e. large media files are best kept on XFS). In addition, I can also
setup kernel automounter (autofs), so that they're only mounted when the
user is really logged in.

>   - Advice about UUIDs?  I lost a partition (a large one) over a
> misidentification of a partition when the Ubuntu scheme started
> swapping around names of devices.  Old /dev/hda became /dev/sda and
> old /dev/sda became /dev/sdb.  What a mess that turned out to be.

This can't happen with logical volumes, because they get a unique name
of the form /dev/<volume group>/<volume>.

Here's my setup:

sda1: /boot (~64M, ext2)

If you don't want to use an initramfs:

sda2: /	(256M, xfs)
sda3: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)

If you use an initramfs:

sda2: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)

Then create LVs for everything else:

/usr:	/dev/vg-machinename/usr (3G, xfs)
/var: /dev/vg-machinename/var (1G, xfs)
/opt: /dev/vg-machinename/opt (1G, xfs)
/home/user1: /dev/vg-machinename/user1 (1G, xfs)
/home/user2: /dev/vg-machinename/user2 (1G, xfs)
swap (if needed): /dev/vg-machinename/swap (twice the RAM)

Some Gentoo related volumes:
/gentoo/distfiles: /dev/vg-machinename/distfiles (2G, xfs)
/gentoo/build: /dev/vg-machinename/build (2G, xfs)
/gentoo/overlays: /dev/vg-machinename/overlays (1G, xfs) (portage tree goes 
into /gentoo/overlays/portage)

However, in your case, I'd use the 80G disc as a system disc with one volume 
group (system-<machinename>) and setup the three slower drives as either RAID 
5 or JBOD, containing a second VG (data-<machinename>), where the first hosts 
/boot, /, /usr, /var, /opt, swap and the /gentoo volumes, while the seconds 
hosts all the /home volumes and additional data volumes (/data/music, 
/data/photos, ...) which are shared by several users.

HTH...

	Dirk

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dale]

Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Alan E. Davis schrieb:
>
>   
>> Now, however, I've tried three or four times to install on an existing
>> partition.  Grub will not install over the ubuntu grub, or else
>> something else is crazy.
>>     
>
> Why do you do this at all? Grub is already in your MBR, so why bother
> with it again?
>
>   
>> May I ask a few questions?
>>
>>   -  Live CD only installs over a clean partition.  How can I resume
>> an installation?
>>     
>
> Boot the CD again, perform the steps to mount your already created
> filesystems (incl. bind-mount of /proc and/dev, enter chroot and start
> with (or after) the last step you finished before.
>
>   
>>   -  I only have a unsupported atheros wifi card for connection.  I've
>> been using it for years.  No easy way to connect by wire.  Any ideas?
>>     
>
> On x86 they're supported by madwifi, isn't this true for amd64?
>
>   
>>   -  I have an 80GB fast SATA drive and three slower 7000 RPM drives.
>> What partitions are best kept on the fast drive to maximize
>> performance (I have basically an all purpose workstation).
>>     
>
> I don't think you'll see much difference. However, with a setup like
> this, I would look into using LVM or EVMS logical volumes eventually
> combined with a software RAID5 over the three slower discs (in case
> they're equal in size.
>
>   My /home
>   
>> will be about 100GB: is it wiser to split it up into a smaller core
>> /home with several slower archive and storage partitions (Library,
>> Project archives, Videos, Music)?
>>     
>
> I usually use one LV for each user's ~ (/home/johndoe, not /home). This
> way, I can increase size for each user individually w/o having to setup
> quota. I can even use different filesystems depending on users needs
> (i.e. large media files are best kept on XFS). In addition, I can also
> setup kernel automounter (autofs), so that they're only mounted when the
> user is really logged in.
>
>   
>>   - Advice about UUIDs?  I lost a partition (a large one) over a
>> misidentification of a partition when the Ubuntu scheme started
>> swapping around names of devices.  Old /dev/hda became /dev/sda and
>> old /dev/sda became /dev/sdb.  What a mess that turned out to be.
>>     
>
> This can't happen with logical volumes, because they get a unique name
> of the form /dev/<volume group>/<volume>.
>
> Here's my setup:
>
> sda1: /boot (~64M, ext2)
>
> If you don't want to use an initramfs:
>
> sda2: /	(256M, xfs)
> sda3: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)
>
> If you use an initramfs:
>
> sda2: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)
>
> Then create LVs for everything else:
>
> /usr:	/dev/vg-machinename/usr (3G, xfs)
> /var: /dev/vg-machinename/var (1G, xfs)
> /opt: /dev/vg-machinename/opt (1G, xfs)
> /home/user1: /dev/vg-machinename/user1 (1G, xfs)
> /home/user2: /dev/vg-machinename/user2 (1G, xfs)
> swap (if needed): /dev/vg-machinename/swap (twice the RAM)
>
> Some Gentoo related volumes:
> /gentoo/distfiles: /dev/vg-machinename/distfiles (2G, xfs)
> /gentoo/build: /dev/vg-machinename/build (2G, xfs)
> /gentoo/overlays: /dev/vg-machinename/overlays (1G, xfs) (portage tree goes 
> into /gentoo/overlays/portage)
>
> However, in your case, I'd use the 80G disc as a system disc with one volume 
> group (system-<machinename>) and setup the three slower drives as either RAID 
> 5 or JBOD, containing a second VG (data-<machinename>), where the first hosts 
> /boot, /, /usr, /var, /opt, swap and the /gentoo volumes, while the seconds 
> hosts all the /home volumes and additional data volumes (/data/music, 
> /data/photos, ...) which are shared by several users.
>
> HTH...
>
> 	Dirk
>
>
>   

Just to add something from experience, if you plan to use XFS, make sure 
you have a UPS.  XFS, at least in my experience, does not like power 
failures.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Dale schrieb:

> Just to add something from experience, if you plan to use XFS, make sure
> you have a UPS.  XFS, at least in my experience, does not like power
> failures.

Not my experience, though. Never had any problems with XFS due to power 
failure.

Bye...

	Dirk

BTW: No need to quote everything.

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dale]

Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Dale schrieb:
>
>   
>> Just to add something from experience, if you plan to use XFS, make sure
>> you have a UPS.  XFS, at least in my experience, does not like power
>> failures.
>>     
>
> Not my experience, though. Never had any problems with XFS due to power 
> failure.
>
> Bye...
>
> 	Dirk
>
> BTW: No need to quote everything.
>   

There may have been improvements in the past couple years but I had 
Mandriva installed with XFS and 2 out of 2 installs died after a power 
failure.  I have read of others having the same thing to happen to 
them.  I switched back to ext3 and reiserfs and they seem to handle 
power failures better at least.  Just that little fs check at next boot up.

Your mileage may vary tho.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:09:09 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:

> Here's my setup:
> 
> sda1: /boot (~64M, ext2)
> 
> If you don't want to use an initramfs:
> 
> sda2: /	(256M, xfs)
> sda3: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)
> 
> If you use an initramfs:
> 
> sda2: LVM (to end of disc, no fs)

If you don't want t use an initramfs, you don't need a separate /boot, I
use

sda1: / 400M
sda2: swap
LVM for everything else

swap could ba on a LV too, but I don't see the need. If I need more swap,
I can always add a LV.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

ERROR #0915: MONITOR NOT PRESENT. CLICK ON OK TO CONTINUE.

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dirk Heinrichs]

Neil Bothwick schrieb:

> If you don't want t use an initramfs, you don't need a separate /boot

However, there's some advantage in using one:

1) Can use a different fs than /.
2) Can be shared by different installations/distributions.
3) Allows to encrypt (and/or use LVs for) everything else.

But yes, it always depends on what you want/need.

Bye...

	Dirk

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:31:51 +0200, Dirk Heinrichs wrote:

> > If you don't want to use an initramfs, you don't need a
> > separate /boot  
> 
> However, there's some advantage in using one:
> 
> 1) Can use a different fs than /.

Not a lot of point though, for a minimal / any general purpose FS will be
fine.

> 2) Can be shared by different installations/distributions.

True, but that can get messy. I've done it in the past, but now keep each
distro self-contained, apart from /home and swap.

> 3) Allows to encrypt (and/or use LVs for) everything else.

But then you need an initramfs. I'd say this was the strongest argument
for using an initramfs.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Why marry a virgin? If she wasn't good enough for the rest of them, then
she isn't good enough for you.

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Alan E. Davis]

Thank you for some thoughtful suggestions.

I have just gotten a 500GB SATA drive, intending to back up all of my
data.  What I fear most about LVM is the possibility of losing the
data somehow.  I may be too yesterday, but I sense that ordinary
partitions (at least "ordinary" to me) will be more portable.  I may
want to unpack my system, and carry my Drives with me.  I've been
trying to work around the same /home/USER directories for several
years.   I have archived them from time to time when they have gotten
too crazy.  And (correct me if I'm wrong) I've become some kind of
intimidated about using the same directory and username on a new
install, so I generally end up copying all the pieces over.

Outside of this possibly irrational fear that LVM mayn't be portable,
I actually did delete an entire install once that was on LVM, but that
was due to my own ignorance.  I am no less ignorant now, but if my
fears about portability can be allayed, I would be willing to try.
And learn.

Be that as it may, I have just cleansed my 74GB 10000RPM drive, and
look forward to installing on this, and hanging various directories
off of this.  Assuming, for now, I am only going to be using some
unexotic partitioning system, which partitions will be most
advantageously situated on this fast drive?   I am thinking along
these lines:

   FAST PARTITION
     /
     /boot
     /usr/bin
     /usr/sbin
     /usr/local/
     part of home with well-used files
     /tmp?


I have a lot of ARCHIVED data that should be on a separate partition
and this could be slow.

I actually find it makes quite a bit of difference, the speed difference.

I have looked around for comments about this strategy.  Maybe if LVM
is indeed portable, this could be incorporated into the scheme.

Abut Grub issues: I may try to edit the grub that was installed by
Ubuntu.  However, one of the serious issues I have encountered with
Ubuntu Hardy Heron has been a capricious device assignment scheme that
is not consistent from install to install.  And I had to edit
/boot/grub/menu.lst to the correct partition to boot from because even
grub didn't get it right out of the box!  After three or four ubuntu
installs, ubuntu wouldn't touch grub anymore, so I booted a beta
Gentoo 2008.0 and was able to rectify the master boot record.  Maybe
my motherboard is crazy---an ASUS M2N-E.

Thank you again.  I'm already feeling better about getting this done.

Alan

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Neil Walker]

Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> Not my experience, though. Never had any problems with XFS due to power 
> failure.
>   

Nor mine. I have machines with ext3 and reiserfs here. There is also one 
with xfs. Recently, I had problems with an over-sensitive breaker 
tripping at irregular intervals. The only machine that didn't have fs 
problems as a result was the one with xfs. ;)


Be lucky,

Neil


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This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Alan McKinnon]

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On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for some thoughtful suggestions.
>
> I have just gotten a 500GB SATA drive, intending to back up all of my
> data.  What I fear most about LVM is the possibility of losing the
> data somehow.  I may be too yesterday, but I sense that ordinary
> partitions (at least "ordinary" to me) will be more portable.  I may
> want to unpack my system, and carry my Drives with me.


So consider this: Virtually any system you will use these days that can read
ext2/3/reiser drives will also be able to use LVM volumes. If not, it can
easily be gotten to do so (via modprobe)


>  I've been
> trying to work around the same /home/USER directories for several
> years.   I have archived them from time to time when they have gotten
> too crazy.  And (correct me if I'm wrong) I've become some kind of
> intimidated about using the same directory and username on a new
> install, so I generally end up copying all the pieces over.


nah, that's false paranoia.

cp, scp, rsync, chown, chmod. Used i the right combinations, will fix any
problems in this regard. They are just files after all.

>
>
> Outside of this possibly irrational fear that LVM mayn't be portable,
> I actually did delete an entire install once that was on LVM, but that
> was due to my own ignorance.  I am no less ignorant now, but if my
> fears about portability can be allayed, I would be willing to try.
> And learn.


LVM is an old, old, old technology. Originally developed by IBM for their
mainframes. It predates that absurb concoction called "partition tables".
Apart from 640kB, that must rate as one of the worst screw-ups in computing
ever...

>
> Be that as it may, I have just cleansed my 74GB 10000RPM drive, and
> look forward to installing on this, and hanging various directories
> off of this.  Assuming, for now, I am only going to be using some
> unexotic partitioning system, which partitions will be most
> advantageously situated on this fast drive?   I am thinking along
> these lines:
>
>   FAST PARTITION
>     /


yes, keep this separate

    /boot


good to keep this separate too

    /usr/bin
>     /usr/sbin
>     /usr/local/


No, this is simply thick.
Maybe one could make a case for /usr/local, but /usr/bin and /usr/sbin were
usually separate on Unix several decades ago *purely because* disks were
small and it's a convenient way to split things up to fit on available
disks.

Just stick all of /usr on one volume and be done with it. You might want to
move /usr/portage and perhaps /usr/portage onto their own filesystem,
because those directories do have different usage patterns than everything
else in /usr

    part of home with well-used files


ALL of /home.

Why split it up? You lose the very benefit of having /home separate - the
ability to update the entire system and guarantee that you won't stuff up
your personal files while doing it

    /tmp?


/tmp benefits from being separate. If you have a lot of RAM, it really
benefits from being tmpfs rather than disk-based

I have a lot of ARCHIVED data that should be on a separate partition
> and this could be slow.


Good idea. It also lets you tar up an entire filesystem for backup purposes

--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Mick]

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On Monday 21 July 2008, Dale wrote:
> Mick wrote:
> > On Monday 21 July 2008, Alan E. Davis wrote:
> >> May I ask a few questions?
> >
> > Of course you may.  Please start a new thread and address it to
> > gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.  What you have done is hit the reply button
> > to an existing thread titled "Warning: locale not supported by Xlib,
> > locale set to C" and just changed the title (but not the message
> > headers).  This is called "thread hijacking" and in most mail and news
> > clients shows up underneath the original thread which has nothing to do
> > with your installation questions.
>
> It seems to have shown up here as a new thread.  Something odd going on
> with your email Mick or is it me, again?  o_O

Apologies to Alan & all, I could swear that it showed up threaded!  I have 
deleted it since so I cannot check.  I trust your good judgment on this.

Carry on Alan!
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Mick]

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On Monday 21 July 2008, Neil Walker wrote:
> Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
> > Not my experience, though. Never had any problems with XFS due to power
> > failure.
>
> Nor mine. I have machines with ext3 and reiserfs here. There is also one
> with xfs. Recently, I had problems with an over-sensitive breaker
> tripping at irregular intervals. The only machine that didn't have fs
> problems as a result was the one with xfs. ;)

Just over two years ago or so, /usr/portage on xfs, battery ran out on laptop.  
The partition was borked (twice).  The remaining reiserfs partitions were 
totally unharmed on both occasions and a few more since.  It seems that YMMV.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:16:02 +0100, Mick wrote:

> Just over two years ago or so, /usr/portage on xfs, battery ran out on
> laptop.  

1) Set your laptop to shutdown gracefully when power drops below 3%.

2) Use ext2 for /usr/portage, it's fast and the journalling is
unnecessary overhead.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

She's fine, upstanding, and wonderful laying down.

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Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Alan E. Davis]

Comments for this thread have been helpfu.  I have done a test install
from the live install cd.  For now, I guess, 74 GB is enough for the
entire system, leaving out my older /home directories and archives, so
I just let the installer pick a preferred partitioning configuration.
Next  I think I'll try LVM for some partitions.

During the installation, the installer quit at the 50% point, right
after installing the optional packages, and would not restart.  This
had thrown me off during previous attempts.  As it turned out, it was
simply necessary to copy the boot information from
/boot/grub/grub.conf over to Ubuntu's existing grub/menu.lst.

So far, so good.

Thank you.

Alan

-- 
Alan Davis, Kagman High School, Saipan lngndvs@gmail.com

"It's never a matter of liking or disliking ..."
 ---Santa Ynez Chumash Medicine Man

"We have no art. We do everything as well as we can." ---Balinese saying

Re: [gentoo-user] A few questions on trying to install

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Monday 21 July 2008, Neil Walker wrote:
>   
>> Dirk Heinrichs wrote:
>>     
>>> Not my experience, though. Never had any problems with XFS due to power
>>> failure.
>>>       
>> Nor mine. I have machines with ext3 and reiserfs here. There is also one
>> with xfs. Recently, I had problems with an over-sensitive breaker
>> tripping at irregular intervals. The only machine that didn't have fs
>> problems as a result was the one with xfs. ;)
>>     
>
> Just over two years ago or so, /usr/portage on xfs, battery ran out on laptop.  
> The partition was borked (twice).  The remaining reiserfs partitions were 
> totally unharmed on both occasions and a few more since.  It seems that YMMV.
>   

What is funny, I think I was reading about these power failure issues on 
this list a couple years ago.  It may have been corrected since and from 
what I read it is a excellent fs if you never have a crash. 

I think any fs can have problems depending on the hardware and other 
variables.  So 'your mileage may vary' could hit the nail on the head.

Dale

:-)  :-)