From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (woodpecker.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934831584AD for ; Fri, 02 May 2025 22:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gentoo.org (bobolink.gentoo.org [140.211.166.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: relay-lists.gentoo.org@gentoo.org) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 739D23430C6 for ; Fri, 02 May 2025 22:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bobolink.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96C5110497; Fri, 02 May 2025 22:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.muc.de (mail.muc.de [193.149.48.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 363A6110287 for ; Fri, 02 May 2025 22:17:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 89872 invoked by uid 3782); 3 May 2025 00:17:02 +0200 Received: from muc.de (p4fe155b4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.85.180]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 May 2025 00:17:02 +0200 Received: (qmail 31048 invoked by uid 1000); 2 May 2025 22:17:02 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 22:17:01 +0000 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Fragile python update is wedged [Was: Fragile rust update is wedged]. Message-ID: References: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Archives-Salt: a281fcdb-aeac-43cc-9cb4-988b9fa89834 X-Archives-Hash: 777e6c598ddb44bd2c7b135114777357 Hello, Jay. On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 14:44:06 -0700, Jay Faulkner wrote: > On 5/2/25 2:15 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > If that's the way they see things, it would seem that having a project > > dependent on rust should figure high on that project's risk list. > This is ... a non-actionable take, regardless of if I agree with it or not. OK. > Do you expect Gentoo to replace Firefox? pycryptography? a heavily used > SVG library? kernel drivers for interesting (really, mac) hardware? > There's only so much that the downstream distribution has control over, > and I appreciate that Gentoo, generally, has accepted that the state of > the world is that rust can't easily be avoided. No, I don't expect any of the above. I was thinking more as a putative project manager at the start of, say, a project to design and produce a device with embedded software. The question would arise as to what language to program it in. Rust would likely be a contender. But if it were up to me, I'd veto it. The language isn't stable, doesn't have a standards body (such as ISO) defining it, there is only one compiler, there aren't that many competent practitioners, and so on. Add to that the difficulty of recreating an up to date compiler if the current infrastructure collapsed for any reason, then I think it fair to say that current users of rust are courageous. None of this has anything to do with Gentoo, really, it's just a tangent. > There are a bunch of volunteers keeping the lights on, navigating some > of these pitfalls -- even though they themselves might actually agree > with you -- because they represent the reality of the OSS landscape. > ...but complaining about it here is unlikely to actually change > anything, and only dishearten the folks who are trying to keep it all > working. It's nicer to focus our mental energy and time on changes that > are achievable as a project -- or specific, fixable technical issues, > like the wedged install this started with (and the reply with direct > information on how to fix it). I wasn't wanting to dishearten anybody. Apologies for doing so unintentionally. > My $.02, > JayF -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).