[gentoo-user] Bouncing messages

[gentoo-user] Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

Hello list,

Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from this list - 19 
of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice, most of the others 
six times. The message was 200359.

I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out There having 
such a hard time with it?

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Nuno Silva]

On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from this list - 19 
> of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice, most of the others 
> six times. The message was 200359.
>
> I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out There having 
> such a hard time with it?

Was the message from the list software or from a Microsoft system?

There's possibly one subscriber that has configured their
Exchange/Outlook account to forward e-mails to a Gmail account, and
forwarding as implemented by Microsoft apparently isn't done correctly
and so "SPF" checks run by Gmail are failing.

I tried to send a message to this list about this topic back in November
but it never made through, perhaps it was filtered because it quoted
some of the error messages.

-- 
Nuno Silva

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 14 January 2023 07:00:29 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > Hello list,
> > 
> > Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from this list
> > - 19 of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice, most of
> > the others six times. The message was 200359.
> > 
> > I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out There 
having
> > such a hard time with it?
> 
> Was the message from the list software or from a Microsoft system?

I don't know - I haven't received it as far as I know. The only archive 
entries I've found are of this conversation.

> There's possibly one subscriber that has configured their
> Exchange/Outlook account to forward e-mails to a Gmail account, and
> forwarding as implemented by Microsoft apparently isn't done correctly
> and so "SPF" checks run by Gmail are failing.

Hmm. Would that cause the message to me to fail, in particular?

> I tried to send a message to this list about this topic back in November
> but it never made through, perhaps it was filtered because it quoted
> some of the error messages.


-- 
Regards,
Peter.

[gentoo-user] Remove NetworkManager without breaking cinnamon ?

[mehdi chemloul]

Hi, (i'm a endUser) i try to remove NetworkManager but it's seems to 
have somes dependencies with cinnamon-control-center ? It's possible 
without break cinnamon or worst ...?

Cheers.

Rumpelstilschien

Re: [gentoo-user] Remove NetworkManager without breaking cinnamon ?

[Michael]

You should start a new thread for your topic, instead of replying to an 
existing thread to avoid messing up messages listed by thread.

Regarding your question:  Cinnamon has a hardwired dependency on 
networkmanager.  I understand you can mask the networkmanager service or 
remove it, but bits of it remain (nm-applet) and have to be disabled.  Have a 
look here:

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/555630/how-can-i-get-rid-of-the-networkmanager-applet-if-i-use-wicd

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Cinnamon#Disable_the_NetworkManager_applet


On Saturday, 14 January 2023 10:41:56 GMT mehdi chemloul wrote:
> Hi, (i'm a endUser) i try to remove NetworkManager but it's seems to
> have somes dependencies with cinnamon-control-center ? It's possible
> without break cinnamon or worst ...?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Rumpelstilschien

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Jigme Datse]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1955 bytes --]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 10:25:27 +0000
Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Saturday, 14 January 2023 07:00:29 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:
> > On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:  
> > > Hello list,
> > > 
> > > Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from
> > > this list
> > > - 19 of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice,
> > > most of the others six times. The message was 200359.
> > > 
> > > I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out
> > > There   
> having
> > > such a hard time with it?  
> > 
> > Was the message from the list software or from a Microsoft system?  
> 
> I don't know - I haven't received it as far as I know. The only
> archive entries I've found are of this conversation.

This seems like it might be a problem.  A lot of the time when I get
"weird bounces" for messages for a mailing list, it isn't the list, but
somewhere down the line, which is bouncing because they either aren't
properly handling mailing lists, or something else (like in this
example given, failing to properly handle forwarding "bouncing onward"
sort of as the PINE parlance was used) list messages.  

> > There's possibly one subscriber that has configured their
> > Exchange/Outlook account to forward e-mails to a Gmail account, and
> > forwarding as implemented by Microsoft apparently isn't done
> > correctly and so "SPF" checks run by Gmail are failing.  
> 
> Hmm. Would that cause the message to me to fail, in particular?

The message *to* you?  I don't think so.  Or it might be someone
sending from a server which somehow throws something into the header
that causes it to be bounced that the list manager doesn't properly
deal with?  

> > I tried to send a message to this list about this topic back in
> > November but it never made through, perhaps it was filtered because
> > it quoted some of the error messages.  
> 
> 


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[David Rosenbaum]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2070 bytes --]

Send again

David

On Sun, Jan 15, 2023, 19:50 Jigme Datse <jrasku@armispiansystems.ca> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jan 2023 10:25:27 +0000
> Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 14 January 2023 07:00:29 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:
> > > On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > Hello list,
> > > >
> > > > Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from
> > > > this list
> > > > - 19 of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice,
> > > > most of the others six times. The message was 200359.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out
> > > > There
> > having
> > > > such a hard time with it?
> > >
> > > Was the message from the list software or from a Microsoft system?
> >
> > I don't know - I haven't received it as far as I know. The only
> > archive entries I've found are of this conversation.
>
> This seems like it might be a problem.  A lot of the time when I get
> "weird bounces" for messages for a mailing list, it isn't the list, but
> somewhere down the line, which is bouncing because they either aren't
> properly handling mailing lists, or something else (like in this
> example given, failing to properly handle forwarding "bouncing onward"
> sort of as the PINE parlance was used) list messages.
>
> > > There's possibly one subscriber that has configured their
> > > Exchange/Outlook account to forward e-mails to a Gmail account, and
> > > forwarding as implemented by Microsoft apparently isn't done
> > > correctly and so "SPF" checks run by Gmail are failing.
> >
> > Hmm. Would that cause the message to me to fail, in particular?
>
> The message *to* you?  I don't think so.  Or it might be someone
> sending from a server which somehow throws something into the header
> that causes it to be bounced that the list manager doesn't properly
> deal with?
>
> > > I tried to send a message to this list about this topic back in
> > > November but it never made through, perhaps it was filtered because
> > > it quoted some of the error messages.
> >
> >
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2902 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Nuno Silva]

On 2023-01-14, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> On Saturday, 14 January 2023 07:00:29 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:
>> On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> > Hello list,
>> > 
>> > Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from this list
>> > - 19 of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice, most of
>> > the others six times. The message was 200359.
>> > 
>> > I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out There 
> having
>> > such a hard time with it?
>> 
>> Was the message from the list software or from a Microsoft system?
>
> I don't know - I haven't received it as far as I know. The only archive 
> entries I've found are of this conversation.

And *now* I haven't received one of these messages I was talking about
(which would usually appear for every post of mine to the list, albeit
possibly delayed by a few hours), so I guess either the forwarding
problem was fixed or that person is not subscribed to the list anymore.

>> There's possibly one subscriber that has configured their
>> Exchange/Outlook account to forward e-mails to a Gmail account, and
>> forwarding as implemented by Microsoft apparently isn't done correctly
>> and so "SPF" checks run by Gmail are failing.
>
> Hmm. Would that cause the message to me to fail, in particular?

No, in the case I was writing about, it'd only cause you to get these
failure messages/reports delivered to you, I think precisely because of
the incorrect Microsoft forwarding implementation that'd present you as
the sender.

So it is delivery *to* you that's failing? Hm, seeing you mentioned one
of these message numbers that are internal to the list, I think I now
understand what kind of bounce message you're talking about, sorry for
the confusion.

Now was there (I recall asking about this previously, but I forgot what
the answer was) a way to get a message-ID from that internal number, or
at least a way to get the address of the message's archive copy on the
gentoo website?

>> I tried to send a message to this list about this topic back in November
>> but it never made through, perhaps it was filtered because it quoted
>> some of the error messages.

-- 
Nuno Silva

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 08:59:21 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:

> And *now* I haven't received one of these messages I was talking about
> (which would usually appear for every post of mine to the list, albeit
> possibly delayed by a few hours), so I guess either the forwarding
> problem was fixed or that person is not subscribed to the list anymore.

I've just had another one.

[...]

> So it is delivery *to* you that's failing? Hm, seeing you mentioned one
> of these message numbers that are internal to the list, I think I now
> understand what kind of bounce message you're talking about, sorry for
> the confusion.
> 
> Now was there (I recall asking about this previously, but I forgot what
> the answer was) a way to get a message-ID from that internal number, or
> at least a way to get the address of the message's archive copy on the
> gentoo website?

I haven't found it, if so.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Jack]

On 1/18/23 06:44, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 08:59:21 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:

[ .... ]


>> Now was there (I recall asking about this previously, but I forgot what
>> the answer was) a way to get a message-ID from that internal number, or
>> at least a way to get the address of the message's archive copy on the
>> gentoo website?
> I haven't found it, if so.

Some time back I traded some emails with a sysadmin about this, and I'm 
pretty sure there is no way to make that translation.  The number is 
internal to the list software database and is apparently not surfaced 
anywhere except such messages.  In my case, I was usually able to to to 
the archive page for the list, and by displaying as messages (instead of 
threads) identify the one I never received.

Jack

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 988 bytes --]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 08:51:10 -0500, Jack wrote:

> >> Now was there (I recall asking about this previously, but I forgot
> >> what the answer was) a way to get a message-ID from that internal
> >> number, or at least a way to get the address of the message's
> >> archive copy on the gentoo website?  
> > I haven't found it, if so.  
> 
> Some time back I traded some emails with a sysadmin about this, and I'm 
> pretty sure there is no way to make that translation.  The number is 
> internal to the list software database and is apparently not surfaced 
> anywhere except such messages.  In my case, I was usually able to to to 
> the archive page for the list, and by displaying as messages (instead
> of threads) identify the one I never received.

You can also request redelivery of messages based on the internal numbers
if you follow the help advice in all list message headers.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW!

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 1/18/23 8:07 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> You can also request redelivery of messages based on the internal 
> numbers if you follow the help advice in all list message headers.

The problem is that if the message is rejected because of filtering the 
first time around, there's a very good chance that it will also be 
filtered on subsequent re-delivery requests.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Dale]

Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 1/18/23 8:07 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> You can also request redelivery of messages based on the internal
>> numbers if you follow the help advice in all list message headers.
>
> The problem is that if the message is rejected because of filtering
> the first time around, there's a very good chance that it will also be
> filtered on subsequent re-delivery requests.
>
>
>


I might add, in the past I followed the instructions to get bounced
messages, I've never once had it work.  I don't get a error or anything
either, like I do if I do something wrong doing something else. 

Just a FYI. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[David Rosenbaum]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 748 bytes --]

Dave

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 18:20 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Grant Taylor wrote:
> > On 1/18/23 8:07 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >> You can also request redelivery of messages based on the internal
> >> numbers if you follow the help advice in all list message headers.
> >
> > The problem is that if the message is rejected because of filtering
> > the first time around, there's a very good chance that it will also be
> > filtered on subsequent re-delivery requests.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> I might add, in the past I followed the instructions to get bounced
> messages, I've never once had it work.  I don't get a error or anything
> either, like I do if I do something wrong doing something else.
>
> Just a FYI.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1191 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 1/18/23 4:19 PM, Dale wrote:
> I might add, in the past I followed the instructions to get bounced 
> messages, I've never once had it work.  I don't get a error or anything 
> either, like I do if I do something wrong doing something else.

I tried it a few times.

I'd see mail log entries where the re-sent messages would fail the same 
way that the original sent message failed.  :-/



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Dale]

Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 1/18/23 4:19 PM, Dale wrote:
>> I might add, in the past I followed the instructions to get bounced
>> messages, I've never once had it work.  I don't get a error or
>> anything either, like I do if I do something wrong doing something else.
>
> I tried it a few times.
>
> I'd see mail log entries where the re-sent messages would fail the
> same way that the original sent message failed.  :-/
>
>
>


That could be.  I disabled spam protection on the Google end and I never
have problems with messages from other sites.  As far as I can recall,
the only time I've had bounced messages is from a Gentoo mailing list. 
Anyway, after trying to get missed messages a few times, I finally
figured out it was a waste of time.  I'd like to have them but if I
can't get them, well, no point trying.  It could be the OP is running
into the same problem I have in the past, whatever that problems is.  I
might add, I don't recall seeing anything that leads me to believe I
actually missed any messages.  I tent to follow most threads and I don't
recall ever seeing a quoted message that I don't have the original of. 
The only exception is one person who I have blacklisted.  Those I never
get. 

It's odd in my opinion.  Maybe someone will figure it out. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 1/20/23 2:07 AM, Dale wrote:
> It could be the OP is running into the same problem I have in the 
> past, whatever that problems is.

My experience is that this is a combination of advanced email protection 
on the sender /and/ the receiver.

E.g. the sending domain's email configuration specifies very specific 
locations combined with a receiving domain's email configuration 
honoring what the sending domain publishes.  Thus when a message passes 
through a 3rd party, saying a mailing list, the recipient refuses to 
accept the message because it's not from where the sender says the 
message is authorized to come from.

There's a lot of minutia to this and lots of ways that this can fail.

Yes, there are some things that the Gentoo Users mailing list can 
change, but do to various reasons, this isn't done all the time.

> I might add, I don't recall seeing anything that leads me to believe 
> I actually missed any messages.  I tent to follow most threads and 
> I don't recall ever seeing a quoted message that I don't have the 
> original of.

My experience is similar.

> It's odd in my opinion.  Maybe someone will figure it out.

I think it's been figured out.  This is where "this isn't done all the 
time" comes into play.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 20 January 2023 14:44:24 GMT Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 1/20/23 2:07 AM, Dale wrote:

> > It's odd in my opinion.  Maybe someone will figure it out.
> 
> I think it's been figured out.  This is where "this isn't done all the
> time" comes into play.

I'm still getting bounce messages the same as all year.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 1/20/23 9:09 AM, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> I'm still getting bounce messages the same as all year.

Different meaning of "all the time".

  - Not all sending domains use advanced security.

  - Not all receiving domains use advanced security.

  - Not all mailing lists account for advanced security.

It's the overlap of those three things that suggest if a message will be 
bounced or accepted.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Grant,

On Thursday, 2023-01-19 22:59:48 -0700, you wrote:

> ...
> I tried it a few times.
> 
> I'd see mail log entries where the re-sent messages would fail the same 
> way that the original sent message failed.  :-/

Me too :-(

But isn't this changeable?   It's a list maintained by Gentoo.Org, after
all.  Gentoo is famous for its customizability,  but the organization of
its mailing lists is not adaptable to new requirements?  Does this mail-
ing software run under Windows?

Either these  mail identification numbers  should be somehow visible and
in particular searchable at

   https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/

or the mail that some mail couldn't be delivered should contain more in-
formation like author, date and subject.

DOES REALLY NOBODY CARE?

Sincerely,
  Rainer

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Nuno Silva]

On 2023-01-20, Dr Rainer Woitok wrote:

[...]
> Either these  mail identification numbers  should be somehow visible and
> in particular searchable at
>
>    https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/
>
> or the mail that some mail couldn't be delivered should contain more in-
> formation like author, date and subject.

And Message-ID... at least that one would enable searching for the
specific message in other archives too.

(Also, why is Date different between the actual message and the web
archive under gentoo.org?)

-- 
Nuno Silva

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Nuno Silva]

On 2023-01-13, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> Ever since the new year I've been getting a bounce message from this list - 19 
> of them so far. The first of those listed one message twice, most of the others 
> six times. The message was 200359.
>
> I don't know what that message was, but why is the system Out There having 
> such a hard time with it?

Did the bounce report you got reproduce any reason/message from the
system it failed to deliver the message to? This message was
particularly quite large, so it could be simply that... 200359 didn't
make it to Gmane or marc.info either.

200359 is:
Message-ID: <67f4d690-1005-a4d6-abba-c685fd4afe6c@youngman.org.uk>

And is about 20MB big (owing to the attached build.log).

On the Gentoo website:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/dd1fc2d5d273f8590d73302748f2cda7

(Note that if you request the message and it does get delivered to you,
the Date: field differs between what you get and the archived copy on
the Gentoo website.)

-- 
Nuno Silva

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 08:56:41 GMT Nuno Silva wrote:

> Did the bounce report you got reproduce any reason/message from the
> system it failed to deliver the message to?

No, just the standard list of message numbers.

> This message was particularly quite large, so it could be simply that...
> 200359 didn't make it to Gmane or marc.info either.
> 
> 200359 is:
> Message-ID: <67f4d690-1005-a4d6-abba-c685fd4afe6c@youngman.org.uk>
> 
> And is about 20MB big (owing to the attached build.log).
> 
> On the Gentoo website:
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/
dd1fc2d5d273f8590d73302748f2cda7

Good detective work - thanks Nuno.

I'll see it it's my ISP who's bouncing the message. After that I don't know 
where to look next.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 09:30:34 GMT I wrote:

> I'll see it it's my ISP who's bouncing the message.

It looks as though they did reject the mail. I asked them please to let it 
through just this once, and now it's sitting on their server (my ISP's). 
Unfortunately, my local postfix is rejecting it because it's over "a fixed 
limit". I tried turning up the two likely-looking limits in /etc/postfix/
bounce.cf.default, but that just removed the error message - the mail remained 
at my ISP.

What else can I try?

I use fetchmail to collect the POP3 mail and forward it to postfix for dovecot 
to serve as SMTP. This is the first trouble I've had with it and external mail.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Michael]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1501 bytes --]

On Sunday, 22 January 2023 22:33:50 GMT Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 January 2023 09:30:34 GMT I wrote:
> > I'll see it it's my ISP who's bouncing the message.
> 
> It looks as though they did reject the mail. I asked them please to let it
> through just this once, and now it's sitting on their server (my ISP's).
> Unfortunately, my local postfix is rejecting it because it's over "a fixed
> limit". I tried turning up the two likely-looking limits in /etc/postfix/
> bounce.cf.default, but that just removed the error message - the mail
> remained at my ISP.
> 
> What else can I try?
> 
> I use fetchmail to collect the POP3 mail and forward it to postfix for
> dovecot to serve as SMTP. This is the first trouble I've had with it and
> external mail.

If you want to try an old school approach, but with a more modern encryption 
method, you could try 'openssl s_client' and then list messages and retrieve 
the one you're interested in.  Something like this:

openssl s_client -connect pop.some_server.com:995 -crlf -starttls pop3

then use server commands[1] as you would over a telnet connection, e.g.

USER peter

PASS s3cr3tPa77

STAT
LIST
RETR 5
DELE 5
QUIT

The TOP command may also be useful if you wish to only check the top few lines 
of a (large) message to decide if you want to retrieve the rest of it.

TOP 5 10

Or if your ISP offer a webmail front end to their server, it should be easier 
to access the message with a browser.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1939.txt

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing messages

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday, 22 January 2023 23:04:43 GMT Michael wrote:

> Or if your ISP offer a webmail front end to their server, it should be
> easier to access the message with a browser.

Useful advice, Michael; thanks.

When I eventually found the right search terms, I went straight to the answer 
I needed [1].

Meanwhile, I used webmail to delete the offending message. I hope the lesson 
has been learnt, but I'll be ready next time if not.   :)

1.  https://serverfault.com/questions/327416/changing-the-maximum-mail-size-in-postfix

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

[gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[R0b0t1]

I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
send help.

With much concern,
     R0b0t1

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Branko Grubic]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
R0b0t1 <r030t1@gmail.com> wrote:

> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> send help.
> 
> With much concern,
>      R0b0t1
> 

Hi,

I was just thinking about asking the same question, I also get those
recently.

Regards,
Branko

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Branko Grubic wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
> R0b0t1 <r030t1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
>> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
>> send help.
>>
>> With much concern,
>>      R0b0t1
>>
> Hi,
>
> I was just thinking about asking the same question, I also get those
> recently.
>
> Regards,
> Branko
>
>


I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
retrieve those messages somehow??


Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- 182748
- 182749
- 182751


I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a thread into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to read/reply etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email software, it seems we are missing something.  

I might also wonder, what happened to 182750??  

Dale

:-)  :-)  

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Branko Grubic]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:38:42 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Branko Grubic wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
> > R0b0t1 <r030t1@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
...
> 
> 
> I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
> retrieve those messages somehow??
> 
> 
> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
> - 182748
> - 182749
> - 182751
> 
> 
> I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a
> thread into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to
> read/reply etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email
> software, it seems we are missing something.  
> 
> I might also wonder, what happened to 182750??  
...

I have no idea, does it mean it bounced, and mailing list software did
re-send them later or not. I don't see a way to use those numbers to
find out which email message relates to the number. So no answer for
any of those.

But what is interesting is that all of us use gmail.

It could be that gmail is receiving a lot of messages from
lists.gentoo.org and that triggers some spam protection? :(

Regards,
Branko

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-01 23:48, Branko Grubic wrote:

> > I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a
> > thread into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to
> > read/reply etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email
> > software, it seems we are missing something.

> I have no idea, does it mean it bounced, and mailing list software did
> re-send them later or not. I don't see a way to use those numbers to
> find out which email message relates to the number. So no answer for
> any of those.

Just to clarify: what I see is messages _I_ send to the list bounced by
some recipients (presumably list subscribers), the bounces coming from
Microsoft outlook/365 servers.

I myself don't seem miss to any messages in this list, and I get back
mine as well, which tells me this is not a problem with the list server.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2018-03-01 23:48, Branko Grubic wrote:
>
>>> I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a
>>> thread into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to
>>> read/reply etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email
>>> software, it seems we are missing something.
>> I have no idea, does it mean it bounced, and mailing list software did
>> re-send them later or not. I don't see a way to use those numbers to
>> find out which email message relates to the number. So no answer for
>> any of those.
> Just to clarify: what I see is messages _I_ send to the list bounced by
> some recipients (presumably list subscribers), the bounces coming from
> Microsoft outlook/365 servers.
>
> I myself don't seem miss to any messages in this list, and I get back
> mine as well, which tells me this is not a problem with the list server.
>


If it helps, this is the complete message headers and all that I got for
one of them.  Obviously, I'm editing out my email addy.  I get enough
spam as it is.  I'm replacing my email addy with ohnoyourenot even if it
is a partial.  It seems to me that they are coming from the Gentoo
servers BUT I'm no expert on these things. 


From - Wed Feb 28 18:03:16 2018
X-Account-Key: account2
X-UIDL: GmailId161dede902deb213
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-Mozilla-Keys:                                                                                 
Delivered-To: ohnoyourenot@gmail.com
Received: by 10.25.154.67 with SMTP id c64csp7109702lfe;
        Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:03:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELucwZNeFRXiKJjxlh2eudY7NO2VLO3a9qKkxD2klVL6Ox6wytGi7pvTBGED47eJF4jE6Cjx
X-Received: by 10.36.73.95 with SMTP id z92mr460219ita.38.1519862583426;
        Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:03:03 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1519862583; cv=none;
        d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
        b=qfZuMfl7obhz2C7JcaZfXaanwriCPPw7BIFfP7XSK1HsMm9B0A6gXRSyAXXE74Ev1e
         Kz+ECG1ljQ1cUrYvhIkGROJJdQ8RVTiMPHA13UfQO5tSbYC0jK3C2FKH1B46upQu6Qgy
         0oufsqe5DqcI4XGZNtV6MFpAh5sa9JArxJRi2VhE03tsQ2H3sU3mur949sGOTYb03FGk
         zrg/G+wjU1vYmBPej/93yKfKUSff1y1OEBNeWX9arCvReA0qQR478xS6x3QjPs1y7LNZ
         WCD5mNYhdrh77iFnbB1BQFzNJ1NhvTgZapAP2Oaqv4dDy+/YFwpJpiaAsff4YMdvfjjD
         mOXw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
        h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:message-id:to:from
         :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-owner:list-faq
         :list-help:list-post:errors-to:precedence:subject
         :arc-authentication-results;
        bh=ZE0FyWZlIM4FKnvLuANrV6Ruv/741w0j0qAXZBDqGy0=;
        b=vHxQPOk0fNvCMkSX69ytRVE8cKh4f4eV9AP11Rtg+svjrf1hi7nOs8HtX2ZABEo3TB
         tRRI2dNkuOds3K4Lx2gasbo4/GeYU3Q6oOSUygkJx3sXTal8qtu8b0tpQzrjs84gPgs3
         bog58QIgQUx/Rz+uExTICPdi5PQUxy+elgR2AFTvgOBeSpeKrqSVFU8/neSL0m6yXdqV
         IkpepCs252y4NpuLCVmZAGRGyopMxhqeF4LOF2Z5VuT6ADlOT+1hFvtcKIr7a5poZt2A
         5gydw0JcyrDB07i5UeVRwxcYb2HA2h23aWoRhgspWATtLMBGu6b++mvZI9tIODV1dNrM
         dvAw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org designates 208.92.234.80 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot1967=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=lists.gentoo.org
Return-Path: <gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org>
Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org. [208.92.234.80])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q5si1660555ioq.283.2018.02.28.16.03.03
        for <ohnoyourenot@gmail.com>
        (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
        Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:03:03 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org designates 208.92.234.80 as permitted sender) client-ip=208.92.234.80;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org designates 208.92.234.80 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gentoo-user+bounces-probe-ohnoyourenot=gmail.com@lists.gentoo.org;
       dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=lists.gentoo.org
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8BD7E0949
	for <ohnoyourenot@gmail.com>; Thu,  1 Mar 2018 00:03:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject:=?utf-8?q?_Bouncing_messages_from_gentoo-user=40lists.gentoo.org?=
Precedence: bulk
Errors-To: <"mailto:postmaster"@lists.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-FAQ: <mailto:gentoo-user+faq@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Owner: <mailto:gentoo-user+owner@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Archive: <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
From: gentoo-user+owner@lists.gentoo.org
To: ohnoyourenot@gmail.com
Message-ID: <1519862582-2667-mlmmj-153f10a0@lists.gentoo.org>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 00:03:02 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this
message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your
information.

Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- 182748
- 182749
- 182751




Hope that helps.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:

> If it helps, this is the complete message headers and all that I got
> for one of them. Obviously, I'm editing out my email addy. I get
> enough spam as it is. I'm replacing my email addy with ohnoyourenot
> even if it is a partial. It seems to me that they are coming from the
> Gentoo servers BUT I'm no expert on these things.

Yes, this is sent by the gentoo server.  It's different from what I
get, and it does mean the gentoo list server couldn't push some messages
to you, or so it thinks.

If you weren't on gmail, I'd say you might be the other side of the same
coin, i.e. the recipient who bounces my messages.  But maybe there's a
common reason why both Goo and Micro$oft think my messages or maybe
other messages on this list are spam.  The difference would be that Goo
at least bounces correctly, ie. to the MAIL FROM (aka envelope) address.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:

> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
> - 182748
> - 182749
> - 182751

If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
were, so we can guess as to the cause.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Floyd Anderson]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
Ian Zimmerman <itz@very.loosely.org> wrote:
>On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:
>
>> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
>> - 182748
>> - 182749
>> - 182751
>
>If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
>were, so we can guess as to the cause.
>

Just send an empty mail to:

    <gentoo-user+get-N@lists.gentoo.org>

where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:

    <gentoo-user+get-182749@lists.gentoo.org>

and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within one 
minute.


-- 
Regards,
floyd

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Floyd Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
> Ian Zimmerman <itz@very.loosely.org> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
>>> - 182748
>>> - 182749
>>> - 182751
>>
>> If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
>> were, so we can guess as to the cause.
>>
>
> Just send an empty mail to:
>
>    <gentoo-user+get-N@lists.gentoo.org>
>
> where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:
>
>    <gentoo-user+get-182749@lists.gentoo.org>
>
> and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within
> one minute.
>
>

Interesting.  The plot thickens.  I sent mine hours ago and got nothing
yet, other than the recent replies which are in sequence so far.  This
is what I sent to get them:

gentoo-user+get-182748@lists.gentoo.org

gentoo-user+get-182749@lists.gentoo.org

gentoo-user+get-182751@lists.gentoo.org

Those look like the same format as yours.  Wonder why I haven't got
anything yet?  Am I missing something?  I wonder if google is blocking
them.  I have to BCC myself to get my replies since google sends them to
/dev/null otherwise.  Annoying thing.  I keep saying I'm going to get a
real email but it's always next week, which never seems to get here.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Floyd Anderson]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 23:28:51 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>Floyd Anderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
>> Ian Zimmerman <itz@very.loosely.org> wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
>>>> - 182748
>>>> - 182749
>>>> - 182751
>>>
>>> If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
>>> were, so we can guess as to the cause.
>>>
>>
>> Just send an empty mail to:
>>
>>    <gentoo-user+get-N@lists.gentoo.org>
>>
>> where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:
>>
>>    <gentoo-user+get-182749@lists.gentoo.org>
>>
>> and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within
>> one minute.
>>
>>
>
>Interesting.  The plot thickens.  I sent mine hours ago and got nothing
>yet, other than the recent replies which are in sequence so far.  This
>is what I sent to get them:
>
>gentoo-user+get-182748@lists.gentoo.org

that should give you [1]

>gentoo-user+get-182749@lists.gentoo.org

and also [2]

>gentoo-user+get-182751@lists.gentoo.org

and finally [3]. The sequence order shouldn’t play any role I think. A 
year ago I got also massive bounces here (due to my mail provider) and 
requested a bunch of (collected) list mails by a script – nearly without 
problems (sometimes I had to do it twice for certain emails).

>Am I missing something?

I don’t think so. Did you previously receive a help message from 
<gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>? Or just try your success with
<gentoo-user+get-182793@lists.gentoo.org> (my previous reply or try your 
own [182794] email), so the Gentoo side can probably be excluded.

>I wonder if google is blocking them. I have to BCC myself to get my
>replies since google sends them to /dev/null otherwise. Annoying thing.

Since all three emails have the same source, I found some blacklist 
results on [4] but I don’t know whether this is relevant, i.e. I’m 
purely guessing here.


References:
  - [1] <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/a29910d5d9a24cb23461a68302c029b1>
  - [2] <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/e6b46a7c62da9497d8303e0b9ba255c2>
  - [3] <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/49d45fd9a088b5717db8aa847fddeac9>
  - [4] <https://mxtoolbox.com/domain/tnetconsulting.net/>



-- 
Regards,
floyd

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-02 12:04, Floyd Anderson wrote:

> <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/a29910d5d9a24cb23461a68302c029b1>
> <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/e6b46a7c62da9497d8303e0b9ba255c2>
> <https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/49d45fd9a088b5717db8aa847fddeac9>

These are all from Grant Taylor.  They are DKIM-signed, and, not
surprisingly given the list header and footer munging, signature
verification fails (on my mail server).

Munging by lists should just die.  Why do it?  Windoze and Goo users may
have to split their mail into folders by Subject, but surely Gentooers
know better?

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/02/2018 09:36 AM, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> These are all from Grant Taylor.  They are DKIM-signed, and, not 
> surprisingly given the list header and footer munging, signature 
> verification fails (on my mail server).

Correct.  DKIM verification is failing and my DMARC policy is configured 
to REJECT messages that fail DKIM or SPF tests.

The reason that messages are being rejected is because of the DMARC 
policy.  1)  I publish DMARC records and 2) Gmail honor published DMARC 
records.

The same type of problem will happen with any other sending domain that 
publishes REJECT records to a recipient where the receiving server 
honors said REJECT records.

This is not just me.  More and more sending domains are publishing DMARC 
records and more and more receiving servers are honoring said records. 
Further, multiple governments are mandating that governmental agencies 
and sub-contractors implement DMARC (which also means DKIM and SPF). 
The US and Germany come to mind immediately.  -  This is a growing 
change in the email industry.  -  I just happen to live towards (but not 
on) the bleeding edge of email.

> Munging by lists should just die.  Why do it?  Windoze and Goo users may 
> have to split their mail into folders by Subject, but surely Gentooers 
> know better?

I do not believe that munging is a bad thing.  I'll even go so far as to 
say that I think it's a good thing.  (This can turn into a long running 
discussion that likely doesn't belong on the Gentoo-User mailing list.)

IMHO the biggest issue is that the messages aren't munged enough.  From 
also needs to be munged to make the message appear to be from a 
different address.  (Ideally one that the mailing list owns.)

I also think that any security headers that exist on the incoming 
message should be removed as messages come into the mailing list and 
certainly before going out from the mailing list.

  - ARC-*
  - Authentication-Results
  - DKIM-*

Removing these extra headers should help ensure that they don't 
accidentally get mis-interpreted by servers receiving messages from the 
mailing list manager.

I have created a new email address in a sub-domain and (re)subscribed to 
the Gentoo-User mailing list with it and unsubscribed my main email 
address.  This new sub-domain has a different DMARC policy ("NONE" 
instead of "REJECT") and I'm hoping that it will minimize the number of 
messages that get bounced.  (This is the first time I'm testing it, so I 
may not have things correctly configured for the new sub-domain yet.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-02 15:51, Grant Taylor wrote:

> The reason that messages are being rejected is because of the DMARC
> policy.  1) I publish DMARC records and 2) Gmail honor published DMARC
> records.

[...]

> - This is a growing change in the email industry.  - I just happen to
> live towards (but not on) the bleeding edge of email.

Flam^H^H^H^H value judgments aside, does DMARC also change the
long standing standard of sending rejections to the envelope address?

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/02/2018 05:47 PM, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Flam^H^H^H^H value judgments aside, does DMARC also change the long 
> standing standard of sending rejections to the envelope address?

No, DMARC should not change the principle operation of SMTP, save for 
additional checks that messages must pass.  All other aspects of sending 
email should be the same.

MTAs should continue to send bounces back to the SMTP envelope address. 
Though, ideally the MTA would reject the message during SMTP time 
instead of accepting and bouncing the message.

DMARC does offer the ability to have reports about DMARC failures sent 
to the domain publishing the DMARC record.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

[gentoo-user] Re: Bouncing Messages

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-03-01 14:42, R0b0t1 wrote:

> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> send help.

Do you mean the crud from outlook/365?  I get that too; it's probably
because my list mail lacks DKIM sigs (intentionally so).  But whatever
the reason it's horrifying brain damage on their part to send the
bounces to _me_ rather than the envelope sender which is the bounce
address of the list.  Micro$oft may have softened from the 90s but it's
still breaking standard protocols left and right, it seems.

I have just configured my MTA to send bounces from their IP ranges to
/dev/null.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet and on broken lists
which rewrite From, fetch the TXT record for no-use.mooo.com.