From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECEC138E20 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:01:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 348BDE0C24; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpq2.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq2.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.34.165]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5A7E0C13 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:01:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [212.54.34.135] (helo=smtp4.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq2.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WG31h-0002rG-KN for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:01:09 +0100 Received: from 53579160.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl ([83.87.145.96] helo=data.antarean.org) by smtp4.gn.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WG31h-0003cn-63 for gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:01:09 +0100 Received: from www.antarean.org (net.lan.antarean.org [10.20.13.13]) by data.antarean.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FEF4B for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:00:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from 145.72.98.1 (SquirrelMail authenticated user joost) by www.antarean.org with HTTP; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:00:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <20140218203656.abace1d77731d845bec62c62@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:00:39 +0100 Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie From: "J. Roeleveld" To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Ziggo-spambar: - X-Ziggo-spamscore: -1.5 X-Ziggo-spamreport: BAYES_00=-1.9,RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982,RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.552 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Archives-Salt: 3822f330-159a-4574-8fd1-0d3f7a27b28c X-Archives-Hash: 9f1339610929b8f306be3ebc793f5805 On Tue, February 18, 2014 18:12, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Andrew Savchenko > wrote: > [...] >> Every decent project has QA and unit tests one way or another. But >> the larger project is, the more bugs it has. And I do not want bugs >> in PID 1, that's why it should be small and sound, not bloated (even >> with some components split as separate binaries) and broken by design. > > Of course the larger a project is the *potential* number of bugs > increases, but so what? With enough developers, users and testers, all > bugs are *potentially* squashed. Agreed, but I know of enough large projects with large development teams and even more users that don't get the most basic bugs fixed. Quantity is not equivalent to Quality. >> Kernel has mature error correction infrastructure (Oops handling) and >> much wider community. > > And systemd has a *much* wider community than any other init system. > So it can handle a larger code base. Incorrect. How many people use systemd as opposed to SysV Init? >>> > SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains >>> > about 13 000 lines, systemd =E2=80=94 about 200 000 lines. >>> >>> If you take into account the thousands of shell code that SysV and >>> OpenRC need to fill the functionality of systemd, they use even more. The shell-code is proven to work though and provided with most of the software. Where it isn't provided, it can be easily created. I have seen (and used) complex start-up scripts for large software implementations which complex dependencies. Fortunately, later versions of those software packages have fixed that mess to a large extend, but I wonder how well systemd unit-files can work in such an environment. Having sockets created prior to service start will not work as components will fail due to time-outs, leaving even a bigger mess. >> If that code will fail, this wouldn't be critical at system level. >> Thus scope of fatal error is limited. > > Also in systemd, since most of its code is not critical (again; > logind, datetimed, localed, etc., failing, has no impact whatsoever on > the rest of the system). I understand the usecase for "logind", but what is the point of a daemon to supply the time (datetimed)? Is this a full replacement for "ntpd"? And what does "localed" do? That's configured once in the environment and should be handled using environment variables. -- Joost