From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C15E158003 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:59:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 024E9E08BB; Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:59:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4579CE0886 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2022 13:59:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1670507949; bh=3W6K6wfrwM9+zOYbCCm30JmzRUN4rCirfsdK9xkBtUI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=sKiXLl50Z+H8X0MFLVWyNdT3eHftDScIlTjek6KKbj5NGsi7hZVNBNuao3CivWnlW crdxoqHcGg00KOmoV8tDkIRBKeLGW3oHkFgxENdWv9o2WZjEu3IjBFTXlhR1gKId6W BaONQwdM2/00dQK6JUJEJmPeG3J053BnFUEd9ZsYOLwltupVV3J+qZKrB4G0GlMqkT 52ZL0QLOehxbPCGDOtNzGRiawcbFD0rRgVWqXs3SWpdspzD9sE4NeiCJG8Fehjkeks oY++Ui/w5Xp3Av0+YI0M+Lbz4iN1n0DfH2lZTx0uOzNA0op4J0FVYy7IDCE1gY04Cp JOKnRI8UlyKpA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from schatulle ([92.117.59.32]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MdefJ-1oTfUi0daj-00Zihu for ; Thu, 08 Dec 2022 14:59:09 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 14:59:07 +0100 From: Frank Steinmetzger To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] NAS and replacing with larger drives Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org References: <9407e524-2226-6ba9-dd7f-bac635d083e3@gmail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u29FBtr8m9tLIsjn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9407e524-2226-6ba9-dd7f-bac635d083e3@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt 2.2.9; VIM - Vi IMproved 9.0 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:FqRNlx3jUnUhgk7iRL482rfho7aT3P753ak/Kf84fEtN0Iw0RtC QZ2K3+4FW+xHd/KJXZKnsIRdlTFDB0GIHjJf5xSnKFwf8cFd6Ozd/QYiP5gHLqWE9Z2pmhk jcWKf0bfZPio50jjT/4/Z9KICwJPjmq8TXZ318q/hC6VyL41eH11dbUDnBSooiCj4yXoBWw rDEeAZcDwC3PjMh4Z3etw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:TIhaP798Z/c=;3i0u4MU0fxUPTIyE8WZEwAarJW+ X26tS/Qstw9N4XtP69+nmjnTJiX1bj/mTFbEoprWBBNZ8irAnuqo5x8VLy8EwM7EbqORKrNgG RRVz86VBsr9vqeVvZgjpXp1vacLIDkNL5JAmkVfGbuCwxtsC8cGPCoPjvf6JPRSkojvHqSkyv Xzu4QuvsjVzEIeU2bIzS++TLV+Soip7Hn+0CXr2HHM9CZs5wMtup5F9e9/KOjK7VqWrXOS680 JTpEQ22Lwk8s0+yL/ikZUeiiV9lpqiYz5BAdAFMg4S6R/ZuvAfMlYFpE+yBKMT47iS2T974Zj zMPQ6W7xnSG+VK3Zk/D/OuF0A8Fgx1sO22tKCfzNXSeukBwkfQKa3M7ag2Y315rWM1ck+xREy RwCz0xZoYj9c6KZTos1kGSKjvDkf0lIYOnrqBERbUua9Z+Ss9Pe8HLVDUFxf3CASjfS8Yy4GL mSRVSd6+Ew3fWGfje2/jcV6XIFo4eKQhbpRzmfMJVLXH9WL24LkEAhk+hr/jmfRKzR0chitWJ nZOROPMVtuMESZD0906FugNEeHDfzz56h7ux0IxtRevnwhgN9c/+QuBFRLlWfdPjF1+AoFBE6 7fDdr1+O7UuZsdU8rxaes+3htE4O0AQlGyeuO38grpZDQ3ijvX3wWWEKhfkDh4QiFLNzztew1 j+d7md7JJZ9ZTCdx+2qwPmphM7YT078gE55SQu21onTj5kqTaBtv4xakRRoEqk0RqY+NlinWe IpTQpxX92/vlZmOYmnc9lsz4ZfVouUngNMOMwmiH/O1jh2eAMdr4d0/ZlvbvOxgsKMDdsn43q dCAPBlYOLQHmbX5BP3vuz65PBvt1TONhaReYrI1YWr1kpTdSGgZelLx0mBHLdYvadlpT327EE Ur0Vg9qyq08BVquZZPeVhUqKqn8k0bTiFTaDQSgUMWVHckbejt68Q5709qDlrZYBzHNPdUaYw tp47rw== X-Archives-Salt: 43c55a87-b19c-44ce-b872-9cbc1d41a636 X-Archives-Hash: e197aba802b04d939abdb74bfaec7df8 --u29FBtr8m9tLIsjn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Thu, Dec 08, 2022 at 06:37:52AM -0600 schrieb Dale: > Howdy, > > I've pretty much reached a limit on my backups.=C2=A0 I'm up to a 16TB ha= rd > drive for one and even that won't last long.=C2=A0 Larger drives are much > more costly.=C2=A0 A must have NAS is quickly approaching. Hear hear, ye olde story. ;-) > Path one, buy a NAS, possibly used, that has no drives.=C2=A0 If possible= , I > may even replace the OS that comes on it or upgrade if I can. Difficult in consumer-grade stuff, but there are ways, like for Synology: NetBSD on old Synology hardware: https://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/sandpoint/instsynology/ And another alternative OS for Synology: https://xpenology.com/forum/ However, even though Synology=E2=80=99s current trend of development is a l= ittle concerning with vendor lock-in and hardware restrictions in their newest devices, why not use the built-in software? It still is very good and easy to use and offers all you need like HTTP/HTTPS, FTP, CIFS, SSH, Dav etc. It uses btrfs or ext4 internally. Disclaimer: I have no first-hand experience with any of those devices, my knowledge comes from news about new devices and stuff that I read in a PC tech forum. Qnap=E2=80=99s software quality does not compete with Synology,= and they also have a worse security track record. So don=E2=80=99t hook it up to the= Internet directly. > I'm not looking for fancy, or even RAID.=C2=A0 Just looking for a two bay= NAS > that will work. Why just two? Sooner or later, it will become cramped again. Go for four bays and leave them empty for the time being. > First, what is a DAS?=C2=A0 Is that totally different than a NAS?=C2=A0 F= rom what > I've found, a DAS is not what I'm looking for since I want a ethernet > connection and the ability to control things over the network. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-attached_storage, you are right: no ethernet, but direct connection to the host. A beefed-up external drive enclosure, if you will (from the little understanding I got from the article). > It seems DAS lacks that feature but not real sure.=C2=A0 I'm not sure I c= an > upgrade the software/OS on a DAS either.=C2=A0 There is no software, it is just a drive bay and the host that you hook it up to does all the logic work. > Next thing.=C2=A0 Let's say a NAS comes with two 4TB drives for a total of > 8TB of capacity from the factory, using LVM or similar software I > assume. AFAIK, consumer NASes don=E2=80=99t use LVM. Probably only standard Raid-1/= 5/6/10, JBOD or single disk access. > Is that limited to that capacity or can I for example replace one or both > drives with for example 14TB drives for a total of 28TBs of capacity? Sure, why not? But then I=E2=80=99d buy one without any drives from the sta= rt and install the drives later myself. I wouldn=E2=80=99t know what to do with th= ose small drives if I replaced them with something larger right away. > If one does that, let's say it uses LVM, can I somehow move data as well > or is that beyond the abilities of a NAS? What do you mean by move? AFAIK, Synology offers SSH access, but I have no idea what you can do with it in terms of plumbing. And why would you? It is supposed to do everything under the hood. But as I said, I don=E2=80=99t ex= pect any of those to use LVM in the first place. > Could it be done inside my computer for example? With a DAS, you could. ;-) But if push comes to shove, pull out the drives and hook them up to your =E2=80=9Cputer=E2=80=9D. > Path two, I've researched building a NAS using a Raspberry Pi 4 8GB as > another option.=C2=A0 They come as parts, cases too, but the newer and fa= ster > models of Raspberry Pi 4 with more ram seem to work pretty well. Just today, in a forum thread about a new Synology with underwhelming hardware features, people were posting alternatives. One of them was https://kubesail.com/homepage. Currently it=E2=80=99s only a small case with 2=C3=972.5=E2=80=B3. But they also announced a soon-to-come 5=C3=973.5=E2= =80=B3. > The old slower models with small amounts of ram don't fair as well.=C2=A0= While > I want a descent speed, I'm not looking for or expecting it to be > blazingly fast. Only the very old devices with puny ARM chips were so slow they couldn=E2= =80=99t saturate Gbit ethernet=E2=80=94with and without encryption. Synologies of r= ecent years with a Celeron J4000 will have no problem. Current models with AMD Ryzen R1600 won=E2=80=99t either, but draw much more power in idle and have= no graphics unit. OTOH, they gain ECC memory support. > I just wonder, if from a upgrade and expansion point of view, if building > a NAS would be better. Regardless of whether DIY or OOTB, a NAS is much more practical than a collection of external single enclosures. Given the rate of your growth and need of space, I do recommend some kind of RAID for resilience against hard disk failure. Does LVM offer this at all? TrueNAS runs from a USB stick and uses ZFS under the hood. > I've also noticed, it seems all Raspberry things come with a display port. My Pi 3B has HDMI =E2=80=93 and HDMI only. > That means I could hook up a monitor and mouse/keyboard when needed.=C2= =A0 That > could be a bonus.=C2=A0 Heck, I may can even put some sort of Gentoo on t= hat > thing.=C2=A0 :-D You could, but this is either a sink-hole for time, or you need to get up to speed with cross-compiling and binhosts. I went with the standard Debian and evaluate Arch from time to time. But I do run Gentoo on my DIY NAS with an i3-2000. Gentoo has ZFS in portage without overlays, which=E2=80=93for me= =E2=80=93is one of its biggest appeals. > One reason I'm wanting to go this route, I'm trying to keep it small and > able to fit inside my fire safe. How small is small? Given your needs, two bays seem very constrained. And if four bays don=E2=80=99t fit, consider a dedicated safe =E2=80=93 if it is w= orth the expense. > I plan to buy a media type safe that is larger but right now, it needs to > fit inside my current safe. OK. But then it is pointless IMHO to buy a two-bay device now and a four-bay later. You spend more money, you need to migrate and it is not ecological. > One thing I'd like to have no matter what path I go down, the ability to > encrypt the data.=C2=A0 My current backup drives are encrypted and I'd li= ke > to keep it that way.=C2=A0 If that is possible to do. Not sure about that with Synology (it=E2=80=99s probably a small Internet s= earch away). ZFS has encryption built-in these days. Btrfs does not, it is only planned, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs. You could use an encryption layer on your host, so the NAS only receives encrypted data, but that sounds cumbersome. > I suspect the Raspberry option would since I'd control the OS/software > placed on it.=C2=A0 I could be wrong tho.=C2=A0 Your OS, your features. ;-) I also encrypt my NAS. My main =E2=80=9Cthreat= =E2=80=9D scenario is having to send in a drive. That=E2=80=99s why I did not set up any barri= er for decryption: the keyfile just sits on the root partition on the system SSD. I was thinking about having the keyfile on a remote device like my pi, though. > One last thing.=C2=A0 Are there any NAS type boxes that I should absolute= ly > avoid if I go that route? As I mentioned, QNAP struggles a little with security. But as long as you don=E2=80=99t hook it up to the Internet, that shouldn=E2=80=99t be a probl= em. On the plus side, they are a little cheaper. But I don=E2=80=99t have any concrete advi= ce to that question. > I think the DAS thing may be one for me to avoid but I'm not for sure what > limits it has. Well, it has no network, because it has no computer inside. Advantages: one less system to maintain. Disadvantage: no distributed access, you basically put the share features onto the host to which you attach the DAS. This also includes any file system magic like your beloved LVM. > Thoughts?=C2=A0 Info to share?=C2=A0 Ideas on a best path forward?=C2=A0 = Buy already > built or build? Well, I gave you a piece of my mind. I like tinkering with storage. I am also still deliberating how to increase my storage. I am at 80 % of my NAS, which runs 4=C3=976 TB in a RaidZ2 (meaning 2 of the 4 disks=E2=80=9450 % o= f gross capacity=E2=80=94is for redundancy). I could: - Reduce use of space by re-encoding my 3 TB of DVD copys. I wanted to do that anyways and it could recover more than 2 TB. - Install bigger drives. Maybe start out with 2=C3=9714 TB and migrate everything. This will lower power consumption, but leaves me with four 6-year-old, but still perfectly working NAS drives. - go to RaidZ1, losing redundancy but gaining 50 % space. - Buy a case with more slots and buy more disks, like the new Jonsbo N1 (which I also found in the thread I mentioned above) with five slots: https://www.jonsbo.com/en/products/N1.html Or the Fractal Node 304 with six bays: https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/node/node-304/black/ But both cases require me to buy a new PSU. My current case (https://www.inter-tech.de/productdetails/SC-4100_EN.html) uses a tiny TFX one, and that one was very expensive (Gold rated). My board has =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D six SATA ports. I want to avoid insta= lling a PCIe card, because that will increase power draw. But since it is a server board, it has an on-board USB type A, which would allow me to go to TrueNAS and use all six SATAs for disks. --=20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe | Greetings | Salut | Qapla=E2=80=99 Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network. 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