[gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[525225097]

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There are somebody said the gentoo 2007.1 will release in this man month it is wrong or right.Is there more detailed information。
Thinks
 
 

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Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Danilo Marcelo]

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I´m waiting for too.

2007/11/7, 525225097 <525225097@163.com>:
>
> There are somebody said the gentoo 2007.1 will release in this man month
> it is wrong or right.Is there more detailed information。
> Thinks
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> 网 易 股 吧， 每 天 有 500 万 股 民 在 此 讨 论 >>
> <http://event.mail.163.com/chanel/click.htm?from=NO_23&domain=163>

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Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300, Danilo Marcelo wrote:

> I´m waiting for too.

I'm waiting for people to stop top-posting to this list, I guess I'll
have a longer wait than you :(

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
considered authoritative. Meanwhile, what's wrong with 2007.0? You get
the same software after an update whichever install disc you start with.

Admittedly, it can be a little more tricky installing if the disc
doesn't support your network card, but not impossible. This box has a
card not supported by 2007.0 but it was still installable.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate.

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Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Dan Farrell]

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:34:19 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300, Danilo Marcelo wrote:
> 
> > I´m waiting for too.
> 
> I'm waiting for people to stop top-posting to this list, I guess I'll
> have a longer wait than you :(

Heaven forbid we be as flexible on our list as the distribution whose
name it bears ; )

> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
> release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
> considered authoritative. Meanwhile, what's wrong with 2007.0? You get
> the same software after an update whichever install disc you start
> with.

I wouldn't expect another 2007.1 disc.  Why not boot from another
distro's 2007 release if you're having problems?  Or put the hard drive
in another host.  
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Danilo Marcelo]

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I don´t have any problem with 2007.0, but a new release is always welcome.

2007/11/7, Dan Farrell <dan@spore.ath.cx>:
>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:34:19 +0000
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300, Danilo Marcelo wrote:
> >
> > > I´m waiting for too.
> >
> > I'm waiting for people to stop top-posting to this list, I guess I'll
> > have a longer wait than you :(
>
> Heaven forbid we be as flexible on our list as the distribution whose
> name it bears ; )
>
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
> > release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
> > considered authoritative. Meanwhile, what's wrong with 2007.0? You get
> > the same software after an update whichever install disc you start
> > with.
>
> I wouldn't expect another 2007.1 disc.  Why not boot from another
> distro's 2007 release if you're having problems?  Or put the hard drive
> in another host.
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 11/7/07, Dan Farrell <dan@spore.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:34:19 +0000
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300, Danilo Marcelo wrote:
> >
> > > I´m waiting for too.
> >
> > I'm waiting for people to stop top-posting to this list, I guess I'll
> > have a longer wait than you :(
>
> Heaven forbid we be as flexible on our list as the distribution whose
> name it bears ; )
>
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
> > release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
> > considered authoritative. Meanwhile, what's wrong with 2007.0? You get
> > the same software after an update whichever install disc you start
> > with.
>
> I wouldn't expect another 2007.1 disc.  Why not boot from another
> distro's 2007 release if you're having problems?  Or put the hard drive
> in another host.

As already mentioned, there are so many options. I like to think the
devs put more effort on packages updates and bug fixes and are not
spending time creating a new disc release...

Anyone using this distro for a while have almost forgotten about this.
It reminds me the old days when no one was kind enough to introduce me
to Gentoo and I was still using binary distros depending on 6 months
schedules for bug fixes. I don't miss those days.

-- 
Daniel da Veiga

Filosofia de TI: Programadores de verdade consideram o conceito "o que
você vê é o que você tem" tão ruim em editores de texto quanto em
mulheres. Não, o programador de verdade quer um editor de texto do
estilo "você pediu, você levou" - complicado, indecifrável, poderoso,
impiedoso, perigoso.
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:19:06 -0600, Dan Farrell wrote:

> > I'm waiting for people to stop top-posting to this list, I guess I'll
> > have a longer wait than you :(  
> 
> Heaven forbid we be as flexible on our list as the distribution whose
> name it bears ; )

Even Gentoo isn't flexible enough to reverse time :)

> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
> > release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
> > considered authoritative. Meanwhile, what's wrong with 2007.0? You get
> > the same software after an update whichever install disc you start
> > with.  
> 
> I wouldn't expect another 2007.1 disc.  Why not boot from another
> distro's 2007 release if you're having problems?  Or put the hard drive
> in another host.  

Releng lists a 2007.1 release, but only says it has not been released in
November.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Employ teenagers - while they know everything.

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[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[»Q«]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ says nothing about a November
> release, or any release date for 2007.1, and that page should be
> considered authoritative. 

In my browser, it does say something about a November release of
2007.1.  But it also says that dates are estimated and actual release
dates may not match the roadmap.  So, authoritative in a
subject-to-change-without-notice kinda way.

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Daniel Iliev]

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300
"Danilo Marcelo" <danilo.marcelo@gmail.com> wrote:

> I´m waiting for too.


Why?

From my POV the only valid reason for someone to want a new Gentoo
release is if (s)he wants to install it on a new hardware, which is not
supported by the latest release.

On the other hand I've installed Gentoo from its own CD only once. In
all other cases (including my first install) I've done the installation
in chroot from another, already installed, GNU/Linux distro [1] or from
any bootable GNU/Linux CD [1] which supports the hard disk controllers,
console and the network device. Yet another reason to love Gentoo! ;-)

In other words I don't need too many releases, but prefer the devs
spend their time for Gentoo on killing :) bugs and filling portage with
new software instead of taking snapshots and building CD/DVD images.



[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/altinstall.xml



-- 
Best regards,
Daniel
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Albert Hopkins]

On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 00:10 +0200, Daniel Iliev wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:46:30 -0300
> "Danilo Marcelo" <danilo.marcelo@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I´m waiting for too.
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> From my POV the only valid reason for someone to want a new Gentoo
> release is if (s)he wants to install it on a new hardware, which is not
> supported by the latest release.
> 
> On the other hand I've installed Gentoo from its own CD only once. In
> all other cases (including my first install) I've done the installation
> in chroot from another, already installed, GNU/Linux distro [1] or from
> any bootable GNU/Linux CD [1] which supports the hard disk controllers,
> console and the network device. Yet another reason to love Gentoo! ;-)
> 
> In other words I don't need too many releases, but prefer the devs
> spend their time for Gentoo on killing :) bugs and filling portage with
> new software instead of taking snapshots and building CD/DVD images.

Yeah, there's like a billion other boot media that can install Gentoo. I
prefer RIPLinux myself for hardware installs.  For VMs I have a base
image that I copy to a new one, boot into it and then just do an 'emerge
--update...'


-a

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] about the 2007.1

[Dan Farrell]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:10:16 +0200
Daniel Iliev <daniel.iliev@gmail.com> wrote:

> In other words I don't need too many releases, but prefer the devs
> spend their time for Gentoo on killing :) bugs and filling portage
> with new software instead of taking snapshots and building CD/DVD
> images.

I agree with this, but I also wonder why there's so much difficulty
making live CDs.  It seems like it wouldn't take that long to turn out
a minimal install CD a few more times a year, but I confess I don't
remember exactly what goes into this process.  

I know last year there were a few people on the forums that built their
own CDs, back when the JMicron support was imperative for so many
people.  

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[James]

Daniel Iliev <daniel.iliev <at> gmail.com> writes:



> > I´m waiting for too.

> Why?

> In other words I don't need too many releases, but prefer the devs
> spend their time for Gentoo on killing :) bugs and filling portage with
> new software instead of taking snapshots and building CD/DVD images.

Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD
is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective
new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it
is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal,
functional, easy installation CD.

I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in Computer
Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on the
nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install
CD is....

If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins
had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very
issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users
to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation
 method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, 
based on the installation process.

Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting
product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality.
However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular)
because the (installation) process is *UGLY*.


Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that
point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's 
rightful place as a major distro....

ymmv,

James




-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 00:32 +0000, James wrote:
> 
> Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting
> product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality.
> However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular)
> because the (installation) process is *UGLY*.

to use your analogy, I'd rather gentoo didn't get laid (or ravaged as
the case may be) by the masses, but rather kept her nice personality,
even if she is a bit ugly sometimes :)

AU$0.02

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

One of the signs of Napoleon's greatness is the fact that he once had a
publisher shot.
		-- Siegfried Unseld

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Albert Hopkins]

> Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD
> is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective
> new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it
> is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal,
> functional, easy installation CD.
> 
I disagree.  When I started using Gentoo it was mostly seen as a better
LFS than LFS.  You start with a bare minimum boot CD and go from stage1.
That was, and still is, the thing that attracted me to Gentoo.  IMO the
graphical install thingie should be ditched.  Its basically masking
Gentoo to look like something it's not (and failing miserably).  There
are other distros that do that in do it successfully.  Gentoo has always
been primarily a source-based distribution where you have to roll your
sleeves and get dirty.  Let's keep it that way.

> I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in Computer
> Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on the
> nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install
> CD is....
> 

Ubuntu is great for that.  Ubuntu is great for people who want things to
"just work"  Gentoo is just the opposite.  It's for people who like to
fiddle, tweak, and get under the hood.  For people who want "just works"
I would recommend Ubuntu over Gentoo.  What I don't recommend is turning
Gentoo *into* Ubuntu.  Ubuntu already has enough competition in that
area as it is ;-)

> If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins
> had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very
> issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users
> to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation
>  method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, 
> based on the installation process.
> 

This is a point where I disagree with Robbins, but I've disagreed with
him before (such as his wanting to turn Gentoo into a for-profit instead
of a community distro).  The bad reviews are from those who are buying a
kit-car and expecting it to work like a minivan.

> Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting
> product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality.
> However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular)
> because the (installation) process is *UGLY*.

Again, Gentoo ain't the girl you're gonna see on the cover of Cosmo.
Gentoo is the girl whose not necessarily easy on the eyes but boy can
she cook*!

> 
> Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that
> point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's 
> rightful place as a major distro....

I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros.  There is plenty of
competition in that market.  Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another
Ubuntu [TM].


* Substitute "cook" with whatever you please ;-)
--
Albert W. Hopkins

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[James]

Albert Hopkins <marduk <at> letterboxes.org> writes:


> I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros.  There is plenty of
> competition in that market.  Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another
> Ubuntu [TM].


All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an easy 
to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source code
based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use
graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, kernel
installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. Then the
customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook.


A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and gain
presence in more places, which is always a good thing. The 'mindset'
that if gentoo had some easy to use  graphical install, it would alter the
mega-distro (sourcecode) nature of Gentoo, is misguided at best.
I.E. they are not mutually exclusive, but complimentary.

Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they
attract a large user base.  Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical
installation CD, period. What I would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what
that installation CD accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared,
kernel installed and the basic tools installed (binary
or compiled). At that point, it's fairly straightforward to turn the box 
into a  server, firewall, or workstation.

You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the
installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we all
know and love ( that is source code based). Its only a guess, but I think
the devs that work on the CD are trying to make the installation full featured
just like going through the handbook. Simplify and drop those troublesome
features/options found in the handbook, in order to simplify the creation
of an installation CD. After all 3 types of stages use to be offered, now
the stage 3 is the most preferred. In the end you still end up with the 
same gentoo system regardless if you use stage 1 or stage 3, eventually.

Does it not sound a little weird that many folks recommend using another
installation CD to facilitate the installation of Gentoo?



James





-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Davi]

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Em Qui 08 Nov 2007, James escreveu:
> Albert Hopkins <marduk <at> letterboxes.org> writes:
> > I chose Gentoo to get away from the major distros.  There is plenty of
> > competition in that market.  Let Gentoo be Gentoo and not Yet Another
> > Ubuntu [TM].
>
[...]
>
> You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the
> installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we
> all know and love ( that is source code based).
[...]  

	Since I'm not an English native speaker, I apologize for my _very_ poor 
English. I also apologize for any mistake in text interpretation...

	I _think_ that build a lot of boot CDs (2007.0, 2007.1, 2007.2, 2007.3 and so 
on) is an wasting of time and get off the KISS principle. You already have a 
_lot_ of boot CDs and/or another methods in order to install your Gentoo's 
system on a new machine. So, why should I* build an new boot CD just for two* 
people use? I could use this time in order to fix bugs, improve installations 
UI, give a bath in my dog or watch a movie with my girlfriend... :-)

	_But_ I agree that Gentoo _should_ have an better/easiest installation method 
for those days when you can't wait and/or be typing 83465247238 commands. :-P

	So: I _think_ that Gentoo's installation CD can have an/be graphical 
installer, but __I__ still also _think_ that's a wasting of time. :-)

* "So, why should I build an new boot CD just for two people use?" => I'm not 
an developer. But I think that you understand my point. :-)

	Best regards,
-- 
Davi Vidal
--
E-mail: davividal@siscompar.com.br
MSN   : davividal@msn.com
GTalk : davividal@gmail.com
Skype : davi vidal
ICQ   : 138815296

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Albert Hopkins]

On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 02:24 +0000, James wrote:
[...]

> All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an easy 
> to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source code
> based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use
> graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared, kernel
> installed and a minimum number of software packages installed. Then the
> customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook.
> 

Actually I did not make that assumption, and in fact tried (and failed
obviously) to de-emphasize Gentoo being source based... yep, only
mentioned it once.  What I did mention multiple times (which apparently
did not come across) was the low-level, hands-on approach that Gentoo
has traditionally taken (of which being source based is only a part).  A
graphical install tool, while certainly welcome as another "choice" for
Gentoo users to make, doesn't exactly fit that tradition.

> A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and gain
> presence in more places, which is always a good thing. The 'mindset'
> that if gentoo had some easy to use  graphical install, it would alter the
> mega-distro (sourcecode) nature of Gentoo, is misguided at best.
> I.E. they are not mutually exclusive, but complimentary.

I have nothing against a graphical installation per se (other than it
being mandatory).  My only issue with the current implementation is
simple:

A lot of people who use it find it doesn't work.  This gives Gentoo a
bad rep.
People use it and assume all of Gentoo is going to be easy-to-use.  Then
feel disappointed when it isn't.  This gives Gentoo a bad rep.

> 
> Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they
> attract a large user base.  Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical
> installation CD, period. What I would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what
> that installation CD accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared,
> kernel installed and the basic tools installed (binary
> or compiled). At that point, it's fairly straightforward to turn the box 
> into a  server, firewall, or workstation.

There are lots of distros (Linux and non-Linux) that either don't have a
graphical install and/or don't have a large user base and still survive.
I mean Slackware is probably the oldest living distro, is still kicking
and screaming (for some strange reason) and it doesn't even have decent
package management.  OpenBSD, which Gentoo more closely resembles than
Ubuntu, has been around almost as long as Slack and it doesn't have a
graphical installation. 

> You, nor any respondent has given one shred of evidence as to why the
> installation CD cannot be graphical, easy to use and still be the gentoo we all
> know and love ( that is source code based). Its only a guess, but I think
> the devs that work on the CD are trying to make the installation full featured
> just like going through the handbook. Simplify and drop those troublesome
> features/options found in the handbook, in order to simplify the creation
> of an installation CD. After all 3 types of stages use to be offered, now
> the stage 3 is the most preferred. In the end you still end up with the 
> same gentoo system regardless if you use stage 1 or stage 3, eventually.

If someone wants to develop and maintain a graphical installation cd as
an alternative to the native one than that's cool so long as I'm not
forced to use it.  If the current one worked most of the time and wasn't
misleading I wouldn't have a problem with it, in fact I'd probably
wouldn't even have heard of it.  Unfortunately it doesn't not seem to
meet those stantards.


> Does it not sound a little weird that many folks recommend using another
> installation CD to facilitate the installation of Gentoo?

Not installation CD: boot media.  But to answer your question I don't
find it weird at all.  It's one of the selling points of Gentoo.  A few
months ago I installed Gentoo on a partition on a machine that was
installed with Ubuntu just by creating a partition, downloading a stage3
tarball and doing a chroot.  Maybe it's weird to the outsider, but I
think it's wonderful.


--
Albert W. Hopkins

-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Guanqun Lu]

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:22:30 -0600
Albert Hopkins <marduk@letterboxes.org> wrote:

[...]

> 
> There are lots of distros (Linux and non-Linux) that either don't have a
> graphical install and/or don't have a large user base and still survive.
> I mean Slackware is probably the oldest living distro, is still kicking
> and screaming (for some strange reason) and it doesn't even have decent
> package management.  OpenBSD, which Gentoo more closely resembles than
> Ubuntu, has been around almost as long as Slack and it doesn't have a
> graphical installation. 

Yeah, they "still survive". But why don't we expect more?
Let Gentoo be much more popular.

[...]

> 
> Not installation CD: boot media.  But to answer your question I don't
> find it weird at all.  It's one of the selling points of Gentoo.  A few
> months ago I installed Gentoo on a partition on a machine that was
> installed with Ubuntu just by creating a partition, downloading a stage3
> tarball and doing a chroot.  Maybe it's weird to the outsider, but I
> think it's wonderful.

For the advanced users, your creating, downloading and chrooting is as
easy as pie. But for the outsider, it's rather complicated, and they wonder
why this step should taken instead of another.

The easy-to-use installation CD is good for starters, gives them a good impression.
We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first, and then
have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.

[...]


-- 
Guanqun
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000, Guanqun Lu wrote:

> We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first,
> and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.

Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
a Ferrari to a learner driver.

Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate Gentoo :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Jimi Hendrix's modem was a Purple Hayes.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Dale]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000, Guanqun Lu wrote:
>
>   
>> We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek first,
>> and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.
>>     
>
> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
> a Ferrari to a learner driver.
>
> Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate Gentoo :)
>
>
>   

Well said.  I used Mandrake for a while before switching to Gentoo. 
Gentoo for someone new to Linux is doable but not recommended. 

That said, a graphical installer would not bug me as long as I can do it
the command line way.  I just like the old way myself.  To old to change
maybe?  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[»Q«]

Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000, Guanqun Lu wrote:
> 
> > We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek
> > first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.
> 
> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
> a Ferrari to a learner driver.

I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo;  it was the first distro
I installed.  It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I wanted
to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a good
idea.  I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis.  But it's only
useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical installer.


> Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate
> Gentoo :)

Ain't that the truth.

-- 
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[gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1

[David Relson]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:30:24 -0600
»Q« wrote:

> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000, Guanqun Lu wrote:
> > 
> > > We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek
> > > first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.
> > 
> > Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices
> > are already amply catered for by other distros. I would never
> > recommend Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I
> > wouldn't recommend a Ferrari to a learner driver.
> 
> I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo;  it was the first distro
> I installed.  It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I
> wanted to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a
> good idea.  I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis.  But
> it's only useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical
> installer.

I had about 9 yrs experience with Linux (first Slackware, then RedHat,
then Mandrake) before installing Gentoo.  My goal was to get it up and
running with minimal aggravation so I could then find out what the
"Gentoo buzz" was all about.

In the fall a year ago, I bit the bullet and burned a LiveCD.  The
graphical installer was nice but buggy.  It'd ask for information then,
on a later screen, would need some of the same info again -- as though
the info had been forgotten or the screens weren't coordinated. If
memory serves, this happened (for example) with network configuration,
notably static IP addresses.  Then, as loads of packages were being
loaded from the CD and/or updated from the network, there would be an
error and the installation would die in a partially completed state.
This happened over and over.

Some efforts were also made with the command line installer.  My
problem there was typing and overlooking details.  If I mistyped
something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next
screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight.
It was not fun.

I eventually managed to get up and running as I got far enough in one
of the efforts to have a bootable and usable system.  Now after a year
of running Gentoo I'm quite pleased with it.  I've also updated my
hardware from an AMD XP to an AMD 64 X2.  

I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the
painful memories of the initial installation.  I must be in the class
of users who use Gentoo _in_ _spite_ _of_ the installation procedure.

Regards,

David
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Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote:

> Some efforts were also made with the command line installer.  My
> problem there was typing and overlooking details.  If I mistyped
> something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next
> screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight.

There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run
in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back button.

> I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the
> painful memories of the initial installation.

You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll
probably find it much easier.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Locutous for Pontiac: Excitment is irrelivent.

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Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1

[Dale]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote:
>
>   
>> Some efforts were also made with the command line installer.  My
>> problem there was typing and overlooking details.  If I mistyped
>> something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next
>> screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight.
>>     
>
> There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run
> in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back button.
>
>   
>> I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the
>> painful memories of the initial installation.
>>     
>
> You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll
> probably find it much easier.
>
>
>   

And when you are typing in a command, the tab key can be your best
friend.  I have found that the tab key can cut a lot of typing and typos
out of the process.

Hope that tip helps.

Dale

:-)  :-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] re: about the 2007.1

[Mick]

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On Friday 09 November 2007, Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:21:36 -0500, David Relson wrote:
> >> Some efforts were also made with the command line installer.  My
> >> problem there was typing and overlooking details.  If I mistyped
> >> something (or forgot to enter needed info) and went on to the next
> >> screen, there was no way to go back and correct the mistake/oversight.
> >
> > There is no command line "installer" just a series of commands to be run
> > in a shell. If you miss one, go and do it. Bash doesn't need a back
> > button.
> >
> >> I've not yet updated to the AMD64 version of Gentoo because of the
> >> painful memories of the initial installation.
> >
> > You probably learned a lot from that pain, try it again and you'll
> > probably find it much easier.
>
> And when you are typing in a command, the tab key can be your best
> friend.  I have found that the tab key can cut a lot of typing and typos
> out of the process.

I guess the "go-back" button would be the up arrow which should show you the 
previous bash command in history.

Anyway, my 2c's on this topic:

I have used graphic installers.  Two days ago I installed SUSE and three days 
ago I installed Ubuntu for two different users with different needs and 
preferences.  Of course I have been through the Gentoo install handbook a few 
times.  The first two or three installs I had to bootstrap from Stage 1 - 
ooohhh, I'll get all nostalgic now.  :)

As it happens I have not installed Gentoo from the ground up for some time 
now, a stage 4 and a remerge with suitable flags for the new box is all I 
needed to do the last few times.  If the need arises (e.g. a hardened 
production server) I may wipe the slate clean and perhaps even try the new 
installer; but thoughts already expressed regarding available memory and 
speed of installation will probably dominate in my choice of installation 
method.  Either way, by virtue of the fact that I have not yet tried the GUI 
installer I am not qualified to say much, just an opinion (and a few 
hypotheses):

I can see both sides of the argument and I think that a super slick installer, 
which does not error out in 9 out of 10 install candidates, *will* attract 
new users.  I also think that when a Gentoo-ified DE/portage pops up a 
message informing the new user of a number of packages that are ready to be 
updated (like e.g. MS Windows and Ubuntu do) the new user will probably be 
comfortable to press a button and launch an emerge process.  What I can't see 
happening - other than bitching in every forum and M/L about borked systems - 
is the new user readily picking up the pieces when something goes wrong.  An 
underlying basic understanding of portage and Gentoo mechanics is I suggest 
necessary, for our hypothetical new user.  The chosen few will have the 
will/inclination (and time) to learn, others (the majority) will not.  The 
net effect without some pilot study is difficult to assess, but my guess is 
that overall it will be negative.  The few new users we might gain will be at 
the cost of significant bad press from the many that we lose.

In conclusion, since (from what I hear) Gentoo does not have a slick installer 
and it definitely does not have a Ubuntu/MS Windows style zero-knowledge(TM) 
automated update system, I would vote to stay with the Gentoo handbook.  
Improve that if you wish.

Thanks for listening.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Eric Martin]

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Hash: SHA1

»Q« wrote:
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:05:18 +0000, Guanqun Lu wrote:
>>
>>> We can't expect that all the Gentoo users should be a linux geek
>>> first, and then have a try on Gentoo linux sytem.
>> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
>> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
>> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
>> a Ferrari to a learner driver.
I don't know about some people here, but I don't care if Gentoo is
'popular'.  I didn't care if I was popular in school, and I don't care
about it now.  GNU/Linux isn't 'popular', Micro$oft is.  One of the
greatest strengths of the FOSS movement is choices.  Gentoo offers
people a choice to get their hands dirty, and customize the heck out
of everything they want.  I threw Ubuntu on a laptop so I can test
drive it (I'm suggesting it to family / friends / clients as a windows
replacement) but I can't get luks to work on it currently.  I went to
check /proc/config.gz to see if some stuff was enabled, there wasn't
/proc/config.gz.  It took me 3 minutes to do on my Gentoo box because
I've made every decision on that machine.
>
> I was a Linux newbie when I installed Gentoo;  it was the first distro
> I installed.  It was recommended to me by a friend who said if I wanted
> to learn a lot as I installed it and set it up, Gentoo was a good
> idea.  I now recommend it to newbies on the same basis.  But it's only
> useful to them in this way /without/ the graphical installer.
>
>
Here here!  I came from Red Hat 7.3, and I didn't even know how to
compile a kernel.  My first try at Gentoo was 1.2_rc4 on a laptop that
had weird memory / pcmcia issues.  My buddy suggested it to me because
he thought I'd like it.  I learned *SO* much about GNU/Linux through
that experience and I'm still learning a lot.  The problem with a
graphical installer is you're basically on a buggie ride through the
jungle.  As long as you stay on the beaten path; you feel amazing
because you're seeing all of this stuff in the jungle.  The moment you
jump off the beaten path you're amazingly ill-equipped to be in the
jungle.  Might as well let people know what they're in for rather than
putting on heirs.
>> Anyway, you need to use other distros first to truly appreciate
>> Gentoo :)
>
> Ain't that the truth.
>
Yep!  With the exception of some people on this list, most people I
know who tried out Gentoo (and don't mind getting their hands dirty)
won't go to anything else.  Yum is ok, apt-get is kinda odd to me, but
emerge makes sense. Also, you're {generally} not maintaining two
systems (the binary one they give you and your source compiled system}.
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[gentoo-user] Console with color graphics capabilities?

[Matthias Kramm]

Hi All,

now this is a bit off topic, but I'm looking for an X11 
console which can display images intermingled in the normal 
text flow.

The following mockup gives a rough idea of what I'm looking for:
    http://www.quiss.org/files/gfxterminal.png
.

That is, I'm looking for a terminal emulator where I can insert special
color graphic escape sequences into the serial stream, which are then
displayed by the x11 console as graphics at the current text
position.

I'd be grateful for any hints about whether something like this already
exists somewhere, or ideas on how to implement it (maybe using some
console with plugin capabilities, or something like this).

Thanks,

Matthias


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Console with color graphics capabilities?

[Albert Hopkins]

On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 15:45 +0100, Matthias Kramm wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> now this is a bit off topic, but I'm looking for an X11 
> console which can display images intermingled in the normal 
> text flow.
> 
> The following mockup gives a rough idea of what I'm looking for:
>     http://www.quiss.org/files/gfxterminal.png
> .
> 
> That is, I'm looking for a terminal emulator where I can insert special
> color graphic escape sequences into the serial stream, which are then
> displayed by the x11 console as graphics at the current text
> position.
> 
> I'd be grateful for any hints about whether something like this already
> exists somewhere, or ideas on how to implement it (maybe using some
> console with plugin capabilities, or something like this).

Ok so a long time ago there were these things called (text) terminals
that were inherently text-based.   Then along came these whiz-bang
things called X terminals which were like the other terminals but could
display graphics.  They did make some GUI software/libraries for these X
things, but to keep compatibility with the old text-based stuff they
created software called "terminal emulators".

Hope this helps.

-a

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Re: [gentoo-user] Console with color graphics capabilities?

[Philip Webb]

071109 Matthias Kramm wrote:
> I'm looking for an X11 console which can display images
> intermingled in the normal text flow.
> The following mockup gives a rough idea of what I'm looking for:
>     http://www.quiss.org/files/gfxterminal.png

Not what you asked for, but 'feh' (Portage) is an excellent little app
which allows quick viewing of images & slide-shows all from CLI.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow@chass.utoronto.ca
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'  University of Toronto
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[subscribed lists]

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>> Why not? Gentoo is aimed at more experienced users, Linux novices are
>> already amply catered for by other distros. I would never recommend
>> Gentoo to a new Linux user, in the same way that I wouldn't recommend
>> a Ferrari to a learner driver.



I don't necessarily agree.  I've recommended Gentoo to a few first time (or
relatively new) Linux users.  The key is whether somebody is willing to
spend the time, read, and understand what's going on under the hood.  For
people who are looking for something to "just work", I wouldn't recommend it
as Gentoo could turn them off from Linux altogether.  However, for people
who like to get their hands dirty, and who don't mind reading, and don't
mind doing things by hand, I think it's a great learning experience.

If you install Ubuntu, you're probably not going to know what xdm/gdm is.
You're definitely not going to know how to compile your own kernel.  And
grub is probably just going to be that screen that shows up for 5 seconds as
the computer starts up.  Now, when something goes wrong, you're not going to
know where to start.  After doing a Gentoo install, IMO you get a much
better feeling of the inner components.

But, again, I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but I do think there are
some first time Linux users who it would be right for.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Albert Hopkins]

Most of you can stop reading right now ;-)

I can see that people seem to like Gentoo for different reasons.  Here's
what attracted me go Gentoo:

I'm not a Windows convert.  I started using Linux before Windows really
made its mark.  I remember when most people ran 1 or 2 Windows apps and
everything else ran in DOS (especially games).

I started using Unix at my university in the early 90s.  I loved it.
For me it was like DOS on steroids.  I'm a power user, and Unix was
powerful, very customizable, and did things you could never dream of
doing with WinDOS.  I remember thinking "if only I could run Unix on my
PC..."

Enter Linux.  My first distro was Slackware, around 1994.  Slackware is
one of the first distros and was so named because it was intended for
"slackers" who were too lazy/inexperienced to install Linux from scratch
and needed a nice little installer.  It's ironic that today Slackware is
considered the "difficult" distro and Ubuntu could be considered
"Slackware Ultimate."

Initially for me, being a newbie, Slackware fit in fine.  But one of the
problems I had with it was that software updates didn't come fast
enough, and updating the distribution was usually a re-install as
opposed to an update.  I'd typically find myself installing a very
minimal Slackware base install and pretty much everything else I
downloaded and installed from source into /usr/local. I was already used
to compiling from source from my Unix days (I remember having to
manually edit Makefiles before we had tools like ./configure) so none of
this intimidated me.  But the old software, package management and
upgrades (or lack thereof) made Slackware difficult to manage.

I tried Red Hat (and briefly Debian) but none of them really satisfied
me.  Then I found out about Gentoo.  It was awesome.  I could do all the
low-level stuff I did with Slackware (and more) yet get package
management *and* upgrades were a no-brainer.  And the power!  Gentoo
doesn't get in your way and it's hard to find something it can't do.  I
also love stage1 installs. Good stuff!

I hope Gentoo doesn't go too far from its roots for the sake of becoming
more popular or appealing to a different/wider audience.  Not that I
don't welcome changes when they're needed/helpful, but if it goes
against Larry's fundamental philosophy* (and mine) about what makes
Gentoo a great distro then I'm likely to oppose it.

* Larry the cow: see http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Donnerstag, 8. November 2007, James wrote:

two things:

memory. Every mb wasted for X - or even worse gnome, the biggest memory hog 
out there - is a mb that can't be used by gcc. Thus a graphical environment 
slows down installation.

cd/dvd space. Every mb wasted for a full blown X and a harddisk/dvd/cd space 
hog like gnome is a mb that can not be used for providing distfiles, stages 
or GRP packages thus increasing the time the installing user has to wait to 
fetch them from the net.

This two points are very valid reasons why graphical installers are bad.

There are even more reasons, but I am just too lazy at the moment. Think about 
bugs - you should find them yourself.

Btw, I remember the days when all installation instructions fit on one sheet 
of Din A5 paper - and installing was easier than to beat the graphical 
installer into submission.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 02:24:49 +0000 (UTC), James wrote:

> All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an
> easy to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source
> code based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use
> graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared,
> kernel installed and a minimum number of software packages installed.
> Then the customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook.

At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway though,
missing important information from the first part. There is no point in
using graphical installer if users still need to drop to the command
line to administer the system, and if you want an all graphical
installation and administration environment, use YaST.

> A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and
> gain presence in more places, which is always a good thing.

Don't confuse quantity and quality. Simpler installation and
administration of a number of machines, not necessarily identical, would
do more for the take up of Gentoo in areas where it could really benefit.

> Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they
> attract a large user base.  Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical
> installation CD, period.

All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need
to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo
effectively, hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until
the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave
them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation
and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and
typing, Gentoo is not for you".

The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people
for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

THE BORG: Calm, Cool and Collective...

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Mark Kirkwood]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>
> All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need
> to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo
> effectively, hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until
> the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave
> them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation
> and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and
> typing, Gentoo is not for you".
>
> The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people
> for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them.
>
>
>   

+1

My 2c - the live cd is great - providing a nice environment for 
installation, and what sort of installation you may ask?... well a 
character based installation of course - following the fine instructions 
in the handbook!

I think we need to realize that Gentoo is a 'mildly expert required' 
type of distribution - and thats a good thing! For those who want 
graphical-point-click there is Ubuntu et al (I used Yellow Dog for a 
while for this very reason when starting out with Linux).

regards

Mark
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[gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[James]

Neil Bothwick <neil <at> digimed.co.uk> writes:


> > All you have said presupposes one (erroneous) assumption: that is an
> > easy to use graphical install cannot be used if the distro is source
> > code based. Nothing could be further from the truth. An easy to use
> > graphical installation, should only be for getting the HD prepared,
> > kernel installed and a minimum number of software packages installed.
> > Then the customizing could continue as is normal via the handbook.

> At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway though,
> missing important information from the first part. There is no point in
> using graphical installer if users still need to drop to the command
> line to administer the system, and if you want an all graphical
> installation and administration environment, use YaST.


Well, I forgot to mention that one of my tenants to a graphical 
installation is that is also be 'unattended'. Input the configuration
data and let it run. If it can successfully run, unattended, then it
really does not matter if it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours.

I disagree with your 'no point.. if you still drop to the comand line"
I'm not suggesting that Gentoo be run and managed from webmin. I'm just
saying a stripped down (see above) installation that gets the basics
in place, unattended, after inputing the necessary configuration information
would be quite nice.  Gentoo servers are very easy to maintain.
Workstations (full of X, KDE(Gnome), and apps, are the constant battle).
Gentoo could easily attract more small business and users, just by
packaging up things like DNS servers, firewalls, webserver, ecommerce
servers etc.etc.

However, I run those updates at night (unattended) and deal with 
failures the next day.

It's easy just use something like:

emerge -uDNv world; emerge --skipfirts --resume; <repeated>


add in an occational revdep-rebuild and you should have a happy system.
Gentoo wikis go a long way to 'self help' with gentoo, in my experience.

> > A nice graphical installation process would help the distro grow and
> > gain presence in more places, which is always a good thing.

> Don't confuse quantity and quality. Simpler installation and
> administration of a number of machines, not necessarily identical, would
> do more for the take up of Gentoo in areas where it could really benefit.


We totally agree here, but, I do not see the existence of a simplified,
gui based installation, as a threat to the (power)heritage of Gentoo.....

 
> > Distros survive, regardless of being free or for sell, because they
> > attract a large user base.  Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical
> > installation CD, period.

> All that would do is increase the number of disaffected users. You need
> to read the documentation and use the command line to use Gentoo
> effectively, 

AGREED!

> hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until
> the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can leave
> them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the situation
> and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for some reading and
> typing, Gentoo is not for you".


I totally disagree with you here. I have many of happy gentoo users
that are quite novice. Once you install gentoo and get kde-meta
running, it's quite easy to maintain a gentoo system and add new apps.
For some of the folks, I ssh in remotely to fix/add stuff, the rest,
learn compound commands strings, like the one above and do not
bother me for months/years at a time. The fact that their software
is routinely updated mostly at night, makes them very happy.

The aforementioned story about a computer science grad student is
very real. He's Indian (from India) very smart and designing chips
by prototyping things on FPGA. He knew about Gentoo and wanted it.
He had tried to install it before and had trouble (he knows me but
did not ask for help) so he opted for Ubuntu.<snip>
Bottom line, if folks like that are not attracted to Gentoo, solely
based on the installation medium and the subsequent pain, then,
as a distro Gentoo is severely lacking. I am like you, to stubborn
to give up on anything I really want to do. Others are not so....
fortified, in their determination.

> The Gentoo Installer Project has some good goals, but attracting people
> for whom Gentoo is not the right choice should not be one of them.


Dam bro... I have a lot of respect for you, your skills, and your 
persistence on this list. YOU have helped me quite a lot over time,
even when I was 'dense' about a few things...however....
Seems like we had that attitude here
in America, centuries ago towards black folks.......

Isn't Gentoo as much of an educational system (about unix and computing
and math and engineering and IT and the web and embedded systems
and just learning how to be_cool(?), and community; as it
is a power tool for techies? Out of the masses Gentoo attracts, there
will be more cream that rises to the highest levels, or mankind 
is doomed (methinks).  I'm an old, jaded techie, but at least my 
charity to others is not so...............hardened.


Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

PEACE,
James

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:45:44 +0000 (UTC), James wrote:

> > At which point the new user is diving into the handbook partway
> > though, missing important information from the first part. There is
> > no point in using graphical installer if users still need to drop to
> > the command line to administer the system, and if you want an all
> > graphical installation and administration environment, use YaST.
> 
> 
> Well, I forgot to mention that one of my tenants to a graphical 
> installation is that is also be 'unattended'. Input the configuration
> data and let it run. If it can successfully run, unattended, then it
> really does not matter if it takes 15 minutes or 15 hours.

So you want an automated install, but that goes against the Gentoo ethos
of putting the user in control and also causes problems later because the
user does not understand what they have installed.

> I disagree with your 'no point.. if you still drop to the comand line"
> I'm not suggesting that Gentoo be run and managed from webmin. I'm just
> saying a stripped down (see above) installation that gets the basics
> in place, unattended, after inputing the necessary configuration
> information would be quite nice.

What necessary configuration information? In Gentoo, everything is
configurable and the user needs to understand this to benefit from Gentoo.

> However, I run those updates at night (unattended) and deal with 
> failures the next day.

How do you deal with those failures if your basic understanding f the
system is lacking?

> > hiding that behind a pretty pointy-clicky installer until
> > the system is installed and then hitting the user with the truth can
> > leave them feeling conned. What is wrong with being honest about the
> > situation and telling people up front "if you are not prepared for
> > some reading and typing, Gentoo is not for you".

> I totally disagree with you here. I have many of happy gentoo users
> that are quite novice. Once you install gentoo and get kde-meta
> running, it's quite easy to maintain a gentoo system and add new apps.

Users or user/administrators? Using Gentoo is no different from using any
Linux system, KDE is KDE etc. Administering the system is another matter.

> Bottom line, if folks like that are not attracted to Gentoo, solely
> based on the installation medium and the subsequent pain, then,
> as a distro Gentoo is severely lacking.

Only if one if its stated objectives is (or requires) a simplified
installation process. Attracting someone with a simple installer then
hitting them with reality afterwards is far less friendly. And the Gentoo
manual install is not exactly difficult, it just needs a wilingness to
read the docs.

> Dam bro... I have a lot of respect for you, your skills, and your 
> persistence on this list. YOU have helped me quite a lot over time,
> even when I was 'dense' about a few things...however....
> Seems like we had that attitude here
> in America, centuries ago towards black folks.......

Your are comparing a "horses for courses" attitude to distro development
to racism? !!

> Isn't Gentoo as much of an educational system (about unix and computing
> and math and engineering and IT and the web and embedded systems
> and just learning how to be_cool(?), and community; as it
> is a power tool for techies?

Yes it is. How do you learn by clicking a few buttons and letting
everything important happen out of sight and without your knowledge or
understanding?

> Out of the masses Gentoo attracts, there
> will be more cream that rises to the highest levels, or mankind 
> is doomed (methinks).  I'm an old, jaded techie, but at least my 
> charity to others is not so...............hardened.

If you think I am taking the "installer is an idiot filter" line you are
very much mistaken.  Gentoo has a purpose, and that purpose is different
from the likes of Ubuntu or SUSE. That is not to detract from any of
them, but trying to force one to be like another is doing a great
disservice to both. If Gentoo is not different, serving a different type
of user, what is the point of it?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm Pink, Therefore I'm Spam

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Dan Farrell]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:18:35 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> And the Gentoo
> manual install is not exactly difficult, it just needs a wilingness to
> read the docs.

A prerequisite that is well deserved.  The question is whether there's
a  place for another option.  The present second option -- the liveCD
install method -- fails to present gentoo accurately, and worse,  it
represents gentoo unfavorably. 

Furthermore, as some have already mentioned, there _is_ a problem with
the idea of automating an os install from source: package emerges are
simply too fickle to be trusted to install an entire system from all
the way up to KDE/Gnome.  I present only the one example; I believe 

We should redefine our live CD as an installation _media_ that can
evolve independently of an installation system.  We should then
redefine our 'automatic installation' as an 'Official' stage 4 tarball
(perhaps a few options would be in order) that can be unarchived to a
target filesystem to produce a working system in literally minutes.  

> If you think I am taking the "installer is an idiot filter" line you
> are very much mistaken.  Gentoo has a purpose, and that purpose is
> different from the likes of Ubuntu or SUSE. That is not to detract
> from any of them, but trying to force one to be like another is doing
> a great disservice to both. If Gentoo is not different, serving a
> different type of user, what is the point of it?

thinking now, I am surprised we don't already release official
stage4s.  It's a good fit with the handbook, portage, and the
philosophy.

On the other hand, perhaps the learning curve is a little too steep for
some.  They might have time to adapt to the altitude, at least, if
there were an easier approach to the Linux mountain.  

Niel, you voice my feelings in the matter well.  Do you think we
should require users to perform a stage 3 install to run gentoo on
their systems?  Or might you agree that we might be able to find a
replacement for the hideous graphical install that would actually be a
_good_ thing for gentoo?  

Interested to hear yours, and others', thoughts,

			Dan Farrell.

P.S. This conversation reminds me of the GWN's request for content.  I
don't know exactly how you'd make it a contribution, but it seems like
a big area of discussion in the community.  
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 21:03 -0600, Dan Farrell wrote:
[snip]

Sorry to jump in late in the thread, but have you come across sabayon?
It seems to address some of your concerns...

http://www.sabayonlinux.org/
http://wiki.sabayonlinux.org/index.php
http://junauza.blogspot.com/2007/09/sabayon-gentle-gentoo.html

these links might be interesting to you...

cya,
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

The price of greatness is responsibility.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Graham Murray]

James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> writes:

> Gentoo needs an easy to use, graphical installation CD, period. What I
> would do is lower(simplify) the goals of what that installation CD
> accomplishes. Once you get a drive prepared, kernel installed and the
> basic tools installed (binary or compiled). At that point, it's fairly
> straightforward to turn the box into a server, firewall, or
> workstation.

That is as long as the hardware has graphical capabilities. A text
(curses) based installer would also allow installation on systems with
serial consoles (like traditional *nix system). A well designed curses
application is just as easy to use (though does not offer the eye candy)
as a graphical WIMP based one, and it takes less room on the install
media, does not need the complexity of auto-detecting the graphics
hardware, monitor capabilities etc. 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:31:21 +0000, Graham Murray wrote:

> That is as long as the hardware has graphical capabilities. A text
> (curses) based installer would also allow installation on systems with
> serial consoles (like traditional *nix system). A well designed curses
> application is just as easy to use

The Gentoo Installer Project uses separate front and back ends, so the
same installer has GTK and ncurses inerfaces. There was also talk of a
web frontend at one point, which I though ws an excellent idea for
installing to several machines on a network at the same time. The sysadmin
could boot each machine from the CD then scuttle back to his dark corner
to run all the installs from tabs in the same browser window.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

When you said you wanted to live in sin, I didn't know you meant "sloth"

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Dan Farrell]

I'm going to take a lot of liberties both with humorous informality
(hopefully you'll agree with that name for it) and argument; please
accept it as a cheerfully submitted 'other side of the argument'.  

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:32:58 +0000 (UTC)
James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Daniel Iliev <daniel.iliev <at> gmail.com> writes:

> > > I´m waiting for too.
> 
> > Why?

> > ...

> Well, I think that fixing that abortion of an installation CD
> is of paramount concern. Like it or not, the first thing prospective
> new users see, is the installation process. In my opinion, it
> is of quintessential importance for Gentoo to have a normal,
> functional, easy installation CD.

 gentoo is unlike ubuntu (for example) in that if you're using portage,
you're probably going to have to be comfortable at the command line.
That's why i've always been skeptical of the graphical install
process.  

It's not a very user-friendly distro to run, either.  It's a
very command-line-centric distro, and not particularly well suited to
people who just want to 'install linux and get on with using their
computers'  -- although, i think it would be a great foundation for
that kind of an install.  A stage 4, as it were, that was more
officially supported by the distro.  After all, can we really expect
installation from source to go flawlessly for all those packages , for
all those users accross the web?  
 
from that point of view,  gentoo doesn't have a 'distribution' install
cd at all, but rather a script to automate the manual install
process.  and I think an "official Stage 4" going  to satisfy your
concerns and preserve the gentoo philosophy the best.  

Anyhow... 

> I've been using Gentoo since 2004. I know graduate students in
> Computer Science that use Ubuntu in lieu of Gentoo, solely based on
> the nightmare that installing Gentoo via a normal graphical install
> CD is....

Yeah, but if they would have used the minimal cd like graduate students
in Computer Science should, they probably would have been fine ; )  If
you ask me, the graphical cds gave us more bad press than the lack
thereof.  

> If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins
> had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very
> issue. 
(but no link, how can I?)
> An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users
> to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation
>  method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, 
> based on the installation process.
True, too true.  There is altogether too little press concerning the
manual install process, cherished (apparently) by everyone who actually
uses gentoo and doesn't just install it.  And far too little
coverage of the parts of gentoo that rock -- that's the thing about
reviewers: they are doing workstation installs and they don't
generally do much package management before writing up the review and
moving on to the next distro.  

There _are_ good things about gentoo, unique things that no other
distributions offer -- I think the active members the list and 
the forums agree to that.  But these things aren't the automatic
install process ( I consider the manual install process one of them, if
you haven't noticed).  

> Yes I've installed dozens of gentoo system, and the resulting
> product is wonderful, much akin to a girl with a great personality.
> However, she ain't every going to get 'laid' (become popular)
> because the (installation) process is *UGLY*.

If you think the command line is ugly.  If you ask me, it's ncurses
that's ugly.  Command line doesn't look great, but it works pretty
slick.  all those unix people were really thinking... 

> Let us first be honest about this, so it can be fixed. At that
> point ( a normal installation CD), Gentoo can take it's 
> rightful place as a major distro....

I agree that this is very important to the popularity of gentoo... but
_not_ to its usability post-install.  That's why I think the balance
must be walked delicately, because with if there is too much emphesis on
what is basically marketing, I worry along with the others that the
quality of the product will suffer.  

That's why it seems that an official stage4 would be a good
compromise.  It should be pretty easy to make it into a bootable cd or
usb stick, or you could just un-tar it and run grub in a script file,
after setting up a few values (hostname, etc).  But you still get
portage and the slickness of gentoo, right off the bat.  


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, James wrote:

> If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins
> had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very
> issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users
> to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation
>  method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews, 
> based on the installation process.

Personally, I think a graphical installer for Gentoo is a bad idea (yes, 
including the current one). What I want to see is:

1) Boot off of live CD
2) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge system
3) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge <other packages>
4) Reboot without CD

Installers are never any good. What you really want is the ability to 
update your system to correct the fact that it isn't actually there at 
all. Gentoo doesn't need a graphical installer. Gentoo needs an install 
process which is as close as possible to maintaining a Gentoo system after 
installation, because that would be a good introduction to Gentoo.

Of course, the initial emerge system would exit the first few times with 
instructions to configure stuff and try again, in the "fetch restriction" 
sort of way, but for partition layout and such, which it needs to have 
configured before it can partition, format, and mount your future root 
partition to install stuff on.

	-Daniel
*This .sig left intentionally blank*
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: about the 2007.1

[Jerry McBride]

On Saturday 10 November 2007 01:42:04 am Daniel Barkalow wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, James wrote:
> > If you do not like my opinion, you should look at what Daniel Robbins
> > had to say, as I ran across a posting of his today, about this very
> > issue. An awesome collection of techies does not gravitate users
> > to join the ranks of distro users. A (easy) graphical installation
> >  method is a requirement. Gentoo get's tons of bad reviews,
> > based on the installation process.
>
> Personally, I think a graphical installer for Gentoo is a bad idea (yes,
> including the current one). What I want to see is:
>
> 1) Boot off of live CD
> 2) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge system
> 3) ROOT=/mnt/sda1 emerge <other packages>
> 4) Reboot without CD
>
----snip----

One of the strong points of Gentoo is also one of it weaknesses... you can 
do "a thing" in so many, many different ways. A lot of us like/love that 
complexity. Some of us don't and a lot of new Gentoo users absolutely hate 
it...

Early on, in my love affair with Gentoo, I took the install manual and wrote a 
bash script that does all the steps needed to get to a bootable skeleton on 
the target harddrive. It was my way to beat sitting at the console, reading 
the manual and typing in what I read. I did have a lot of previous Linux 
experience with Open Caldera Linux.

I agree with you, you don't really need a GUI for that... but it does "sell 
the product" to new users. Wether we like it or not, we need new blood (new 
users) to keep the Gentoo momentum going. And that new blood is mostly coming 
from the windows ranks... you know... point, point, clickey clickey... There 
is a bit of a migration going on now, from windows to "something else". We 
should be trying to be a part of that "something else". After all, RedHat, 
PCLinuxOS, etc... maybe not be the answer for some of these new users.

That said, we really do need a KILLER GUI install tool for those that need it 
and the rest of us can use a CLI... 

You know, it should be possible to write a bash script to facilitate a 
complete Gentoo install session and that install script could then be used as 
the "guts" of a slick GUI interface for those that need it.



-- 


From the Desk of: Jerome D. McBride
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