[gentoo-user] FTP Server

[gentoo-user] FTP Server

[JimD]

Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server for
Gentoo?

My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building websites.
 I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web server and
give him his own directory to play with.

I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh.  However,
I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web page design,
so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and most supported by
tools.  He uses winXP and I think Nvu can publish to ftp.  If he really
gets into building websites, he wants to purchase something like
dreamweaver.

>From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow someone
to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.  I
guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses tcp
wrappers.

Thanks for any guidance,

Jim
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Gerhard Hoogterp]

On Tuesday 06 June 2006 17:38, JimD wrote:

> >From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow someone
>
> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.  I
> guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses tcp
> wrappers.


Maybe winscp is a better idea? It behaves like most windows ftpclients but 
uses scp to connect to your box with all the ssh goodness for security.. 

http://winscp.net/eng/index.php

Gerhard



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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[JimD]

Gerhard Hoogterp wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 June 2006 17:38, JimD wrote:
> 
>> >From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow someone
>>
>> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.  I
>> guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses tcp
>> wrappers.
> 
> 
> Maybe winscp is a better idea? It behaves like most windows ftpclients but 
> uses scp to connect to your box with all the ssh goodness for security.. 
> 
> http://winscp.net/eng/index.php
> 
> Gerhard

Ohhh, it has a gui too!  I think we may have a winner ;-)

Thanks,

Jim
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server / ssh and other bruteforce

[Jason A. Booth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1799 bytes --]

I don't know if my other posts made it because I think I was using the wrong
e-mail to send from.

I tend to prefer proftpd because you can lock specific users/ groups out
and run it in a chrooted environment easily.

BFD (brute force detection) works well for all services, is easy to set up and 
available at:
http://www.r-fx.ca/downloads/bfd-current.tar.gz 

Also, if it is just him, and he happens to be on static or change i.p. 
addresses infrequently, you could just block it at the firewall:

iptables -I INPUT -p tcp -s <his ip> --sport 21 -j ACCEPT 
iptables -I INPUT 2 -p tcp --dport 21 -j DROP

Cheers,
~J

oh yeah.. down with windows!

On Tuesday 06 June 2006 09:03, JimD wrote:
> Gerhard Hoogterp wrote:
> > On Tuesday 06 June 2006 17:38, JimD wrote:
> >> >From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow someone
> >>
> >> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.  I
> >> guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses tcp
> >> wrappers.
> >
> > Maybe winscp is a better idea? It behaves like most windows ftpclients
> > but uses scp to connect to your box with all the ssh goodness for
> > security..
> >
> > http://winscp.net/eng/index.php
> >
> > Gerhard
>
> Ohhh, it has a gui too!  I think we may have a winner ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
> --
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you
> don't end up with a girlfriend
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> JimD
> Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason A. Booth 
PGP public key(85D1F7FC):
http://hyperintelligent.net/~jbooth/jbooth_key.asc
------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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Tuesday 06 June 2006 17:48 skrev Gerhard Hoogterp:
> Maybe winscp is a better idea? It behaves like most windows ftpclients but
> uses scp to connect to your box with all the ssh goodness for security..

Actually WinSCP supports both scp and sftp. By default it uses sftp because 
that supports resume if the connection fails during a transfer. scp does not 
support resuming.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Thomas T. Veldhouse]

Gerhard Hoogterp wrote:
> Maybe winscp is a better idea? It behaves like most windows ftpclients but 
> uses scp to connect to your box with all the ssh goodness for security.. 
>
> http://winscp.net/eng/index.php
>
>   
Default configuration of SSH on Gentoo will not allow a user to leave 
their home directory tree.  Just a word of advice; be careful.

Tom Veldhouse

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Uwe Thiem]

On 06 June 2006 16:38, JimD wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server for
> Gentoo?
>
> My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building websites.
>  I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web server and
> give him his own directory to play with.
>
> I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh.  However,
> I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web page design,
> so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and most supported by
> tools. 

There is no such thing as a secure FTP server in my book. Maybe you can 
install a ssh/sftp client on his Windows box and use sftp.

Uwe

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Tuesday 6 June 2006 17:38, JimD wrote:

> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server
> for Gentoo?
>
> My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building
> websites. I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web
> server and give him his own directory to play with.
>
> I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh. 
> However, I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web
> page design, so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and
> most supported by tools.  He uses winXP and I think Nvu can publish to
> ftp.  If he really gets into building websites, he wants to purchase
> something like dreamweaver.
>
> >From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow
> > someone
>
> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password. 
> I guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses
> tcp wrappers.
>
> Thanks for any guidance,

What about sftp? You only need to have ssh running.
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[JimD]

Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> What about sftp? You only need to have ssh running.

I have ssh.  However, How many of the typical winXP tools for website
editing support sftp?  I was just looking at Nvu and the text editing in
it stinks real bad.  I don't know what windows software he will always
use.  He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool.  A lot of
those tools allow publishing to a site with FTP, though I am not sure if
they support sftp.

Jim

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you
don't end up with a girlfriend
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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Tuesday 06 June 2006 18:01 skrev JimD:
> I don't know what windows software he will always
> use.  He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool.

I would *really* recommend that he does not use Frontpage. It produces crap 
code... I know nothing about Dreamweaver though.

-- 
Bo Andresen

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 6/6/06, Bo Ørsted Andresen <bo.andresen@zlin.dk> wrote:
> Tuesday 06 June 2006 18:01 skrev JimD:
> > I don't know what windows software he will always
> > use. He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool.
>
> I would *really* recommend that he does not use Frontpage. It produces crap
> code... I know nothing about Dreamweaver though.
>

sftp works great, its easy, simple and secure. You already checked a
GUI, so, shouldn't be a problem. Frontpage produces crappy code full
of MS stuff, hides you the basics of HTML and has limited CSS editing.
Dreamweaver works great, has few bugs and full CSS support, snippets
and PHP/ASP/Javascript editing, but I strongly advice your
father-in-law not to use a GUI to start webmastering, use plain old
text editing software to really learn what's going on.

-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Bruno Lustosa]

On 6/6/06, Daniel da Veiga <danieldaveiga@gmail.com> wrote:
> sftp works great, its easy, simple and secure. You already checked a
> GUI, so, shouldn't be a problem. Frontpage produces crappy code full
> of MS stuff, hides you the basics of HTML and has limited CSS editing.
> Dreamweaver works great, has few bugs and full CSS support, snippets
> and PHP/ASP/Javascript editing, but I strongly advice your
> father-in-law not to use a GUI to start webmastering, use plain old
> text editing software to really learn what's going on.

That's it. The worst thing you can ever come across is a webmaster who
doesn't know HTML (I've worked with a few people like this). If you're
into web building, you *must* know HTML and CSS. You might want a
WYSIWYG editor to help you here and there, but you must know how
things work behind, or else, no matter the tools, you'll end up
producing crap code.

-- 
Bruno Lustosa <bruno@lustosa.net>
http://www.lustosa.net/
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Michael Crute]

On 6/6/06, Daniel da Veiga <danieldaveiga@gmail.com> wrote:
> but I strongly advice your father-in-law not to use a GUI to start webmastering,
> use plain old text editing software to really learn what's going on.

I agree with Daniel, if you learn on a GUI its far too easy to make
bad websites. Start with VI and a good book, and do yourself a favor
learning CSS and XHTML since that is where web design is headed.

-Mike

-- 
________________________________
Michael E. Crute
http://mike.crute.org

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.
--Douglas Adams
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Evan Klitzke]

On 6/6/06, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Daniel, if you learn on a GUI its far too easy to make
> bad websites. Start with VI and a good book, and do yourself a favor
> learning CSS and XHTML since that is where web design is headed.

It is probably a good idea to start with a good text editor and a
book, but trying to learn vi and web design at the same time might be
a bit overwhelming!

-- Evan
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Daniel da Veiga]

On 6/6/06, Evan Klitzke <eklitzke@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/6/06, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree with Daniel, if you learn on a GUI its far too easy to make
> > bad websites. Start with VI and a good book, and do yourself a favor
> > learning CSS and XHTML since that is where web design is headed.
>
> It is probably a good idea to start with a good text editor and a
> book, but trying to learn vi and web design at the same time might be
> a bit overwhelming!
>

That's precisely why I didn't point it to GVIM for Windows, *lol*.
And yes, a good book, online tutorial (I even like the CHM format) is
the way to start, I had big trouble using GUIs, couldn't even create a
simple table without a wizard, venturing in the world of text-only was
the way to learn. Of course, you don't have to be a dinossaur and use
vi or nano or notepad. You can use syntax highlight, completion,
auto-ident, line numbering and snippets. But you must KNOW how to do
it by hand in case you have no other option.

> -- Evan
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Daniel da Veiga
Computer Operator - RS - Brazil
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[JimD]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> Tuesday 06 June 2006 18:01 skrev JimD:
>> I don't know what windows software he will always
>> use.  He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool.
> 
> I would *really* recommend that he does not use Frontpage. It produces crap 
> code... I know nothing about Dreamweaver though.

Frontpage was just an example.  As a programmer, I will do all in my
power to prevent that junk from getting on his computer.  It is my duty
as a Linux Geek.  :-)

Jim
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you
don't end up with a girlfriend
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Tuesday 6 June 2006 18:01, JimD wrote:

> I have ssh.  However, How many of the typical winXP tools for website
> editing support sftp?  I was just looking at Nvu and the text editing
> in it stinks real bad.  I don't know what windows software he will
> always use.  He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool. 
> A lot of those tools allow publishing to a site with FTP, though I am
> not sure if they support sftp.

You can use a ftp-to-sftp bridge like mindterm (it's in java, so should 
be os-independent), or tunnel plain ftp over ssh (see 
http://fonc.sf.net). In both cases, any non-sftp-aware app works just 
fine, provided that things are set up correctly beforehand.
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[michael]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On Tuesday 6 June 2006 17:38, JimD wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server
>> for Gentoo?
>>
>> My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building
>> websites. I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web
>> server and give him his own directory to play with.
>>
>> I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh.
>> However, I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web
>> page design, so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and
>> most supported by tools.  He uses winXP and I think Nvu can publish to
>> ftp.  If he really gets into building websites, he wants to purchase
>> something like dreamweaver.
>>
>>> From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow
>>> someone
>>
>> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.
>> I guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses
>> tcp wrappers.
>>
>> Thanks for any guidance,
>
> What about sftp? You only need to have ssh running.

What kind of a client do you need to talk to an sftp server?
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Tuesday 6 June 2006 18:59, michael@michaelshiloh.com wrote:

> > What about sftp? You only need to have ssh running.
>
> What kind of a client do you need to talk to an sftp server?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SFTP_clients

plus, of course, the sftp binary that comes with the openssh package.
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[michael]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On Tuesday 6 June 2006 18:59, michael@michaelshiloh.com wrote:
>
>>> What about sftp? You only need to have ssh running.
>>
>> What kind of a client do you need to talk to an sftp server?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_SFTP_clients
>
> plus, of course, the sftp binary that comes with the openssh package.

Thanks. I guess the question really is: Can the ftp client that's built in to
programs like dreamweaver, frontpage, nvu, etc. work with an sftp or vsftp
server, or do you need a special client? If my users have to install a special
client, they may as well use WinSCP, but ideally, I can find a secure server
(although I agree with the comment someone made about "secure ftp" being an
oxymoron) that works with the html authoring tool my users already have.

We all may have our opinions of dreamweaver, frontpage, and nvu, but so do my
users, and I support them best if I allow them to use the tool of their
choice.

Ideally, I'd like a solution that works for clients on both OS X and Windows,
as I have users of both flavors.

M
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Dave Moore]

On 6/6/06, michael@michaelshiloh.com <michael@michaelshiloh.com> wrote:

> Thanks. I guess the question really is: Can the ftp client that's built in to
> programs like dreamweaver, frontpage, nvu, etc. work with an sftp or vsftp
> server, or do you need a special client?

I'm assuming your reference to VSFTP is based on my recommendation of
vsftpd. vsftpd stands for very secure file transfer protocol daemon,
but make no mistake: This is an FTP daemon. The 'very secure' isn't
referring to a protocol, they're just saying their daemon is very
secure. I tend to agree.

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Dave Moore]

> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server
> for Gentoo?
Take a look at vsftpd. Their tagline: Very Secure FTP Daemon written
with speed, size and security in mind. It's in portage, and I've been
using it on a Gentoo system for some time now. I don't think it's ever
had more than a half dozen or so simultaneous connections, so I'm not
really giving it a workout, but I like it.

> I would *really* recommend that he does not use Frontpage. It produces crap
> code... I know nothing about Dreamweaver though.
The latest iteration of Dreamweaver produces pretty good code. Leaps
and bounds ahead of the previous versions and FP.


-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT d-(+) s+: a24 C++ UBL++ P+>+++ L++ E--- W+++$ N+ o? K? w O? M-- V?
!PS !PE Y PGP- t++ 5++ X+ R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D++ G e+ h-- r++ y+
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Daniel]

On Tuesday 06 June 2006 11:38, JimD wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server
> for Gentoo?

You've already heard a number of good suggestions here.  I will state my 
support for the WinSCP option with one additional suggestion:  Turn off 
shell access for the user in /etc/passwd and replace it with sftp like 
so:

  dad:x:1001:1001::/home/dad:/usr/lib/misc/sftp-server

That way, if his box gets compromised, the intruder doesn't have a shell 
on your machine, just the ability to delete your dad's website ;-)

Additionally, you may want to look into disabling password access 
alltogether for SSH instead opting for keys only.  They can be 
restricted at the application layer (in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys) to 
reject requests for a login based on originating IP as well as key 
authentication.

Frontpage is terrible, GoLive is comparable to Frontpage and Dreamweaver 
sucks... less.  They're all guilty of using deprecated tags everywhere 
and they all create a dependency on the GUI rather than Doing It Right.  
I very much recommend Homesite, as it's less susceptible to the typical 
Dreamweaver-esque blunders.

Lastly, I believe Dreamweaver, in combination with Putty can play nice 
with SFTP, and Homesite may very well be the same given that they're 
currently owned by the same company (Macromedia)

-- 
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  - Ghost in the Shell
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Ryan Tandy]

Daniel wrote:
>   dad:x:1001:1001::/home/dad:/usr/lib/misc/sftp-server
> 
> That way, if his box gets compromised, the intruder doesn't have a shell 
> on your machine, just the ability to delete your dad's website ;-)

What's wrong with /bin/false?

Then, if it's compromised, all he has is the ability to do nothing, 
unsuccessfully :)
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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:11:45 -0700, Ryan Tandy wrote:

> What's wrong with /bin/false?

> Then, if it's compromised, all he has is the ability to do nothing, 
> unsuccessfully :)

That's a security risk! Doing nothing unsuccessfully means
doing something. You want him to do nothing successfully :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Why do kamikaze pilots wear helmets?

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Ryan Tandy]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> That's a security risk! Doing nothing unsuccessfully means
> doing something. You want him to do nothing successfully :)
> 
> 

...I'm not sure I follow your logic there.

In any case, -ie 's/false/true' and continue? :)
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RE: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Timothy A. Holmes]

> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server
for
> Gentoo?
> 
> My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building
websites.
>  I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web server
and
> give him his own directory to play with.
> 
> I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh.
However,
> I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web page
design,
> so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and most supported
by
> tools.  He uses winXP and I think Nvu can publish to ftp.  If he
really
> gets into building websites, he wants to purchase something like
> dreamweaver.
> 
> From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow
someone
> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.
I
> guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses
tcp
> wrappers.
> 
> Thanks for any guidance,
> 
> Jim

[Timothy A. Holmes] 

Take a look at sftp - its part of ssh - I don't know if nvu supports it
or not but I know dreamweaver does


Timothy A. Holmes
IT Manager / Network Admin / Web Master / Computer Teacher
 
Medina Christian Academy
A Higher Standard...
 
Jeremiah 33:3
Jeremiah 29:11
Esther 4:14



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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[brettholcomb]

Did you check out sftp?  Or programs like secure shell which do ftp also.
> 
> From: JimD <Jim@keeliegirl.dyndns.org>
> Date: 2006/06/06 Tue AM 11:38:06 EDT
> To: Gentoo-User <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
> Subject: [gentoo-user] FTP Server
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions/preferences to a secure FTP server for
> Gentoo?
> 
> My 55+ year old father-in-law wants to start learning building websites.
>  I am having him install Nvu and want to setup ftp to my web server and
> give him his own directory to play with.
> 
> I have never had a need for ftp since I have always used ssh.  However,
> I want to make it as easy as possible for him to learn web page design,
> so that is why I thought ftp would be the easiest and most supported by
> tools.  He uses winXP and I think Nvu can publish to ftp.  If he really
> gets into building websites, he wants to purchase something like
> dreamweaver.
> 
> From my perspective, I don't want an ftp server that will allow someone
> to get in to my gentoo box by brute forcing a username and password.  I
> guess I can install something like denyhosts if the ftp server uses tcp
> wrappers.
> 
> Thanks for any guidance,
> 
> Jim
> -- 
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you
> don't end up with a girlfriend
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> JimD
> Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[JimD]

brettholcomb@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Did you check out sftp?  Or programs like secure shell which do ftp also.

I use ssh/sftp exclusively.  I just have never really used any of the
windows based WYIWYG-type website editors to know if they support ssh/sftp.

Thanks,

Jim
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JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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RE: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Timothy A. Holmes]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bo Ørsted Andresen [mailto:bo.andresen@zlin.dk]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:22 PM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server
> 
> Tuesday 06 June 2006 18:01 skrev JimD:
> > I don't know what windows software he will always
> > use.  He may try FrontPage or Dreamweaver or some other tool.
> 
> I would *really* recommend that he does not use Frontpage. It produces
> crap
> code... I know nothing about Dreamweaver though.
> 
> --
> Bo Andresen
[Timothy A. Holmes] 

I love dreamweaver -- it works really great - the code is a bit verbose, BUT it is also very easy to trace because of that - 

I use it for all of our sites here - If you want a look 

http://www.mcaschool.net 

there may be a few errors lying about -- but those are mine, NOT dreamweavers

and it does support sftp

TIM


 Timothy A. Holmes
IT Manager / Network Admin / Web Master / Computer Teacher
 
Medina Christian Academy
A Higher Standard...
 
Jeremiah 33:3
Jeremiah 29:11
Esther 4:14


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RE: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Timothy A. Holmes]

> On 6/6/06, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree with Daniel, if you learn on a GUI its far too easy to make
> > bad websites. Start with VI and a good book, and do yourself a favor
> > learning CSS and XHTML since that is where web design is headed.
> 
> It is probably a good idea to start with a good text editor and a
> book, but trying to learn vi and web design at the same time might be
> a bit overwhelming!
> 
> -- Evan
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[Timothy A. Holmes] 

In this sense I am afraid I cannot agree with you.  While I agree that
it is ABSOLUTLY essential to learn XHTML and CSS code, trying to start
from a blank vi or notepad screen is an exercise in frustration -- been
there done that -- as I was beginning to learn web programming, working
under incredible pressure from the then resident administration, I was
trying to hand code everything in Visual InterDev.  The crowning moment
was 5 hours spent to produce 2 lines of NON-WORKING code. I far more
recommend a authoring package like Dreamweaver that allows you to flip
views or even split the views, so you can see what is happening to your
code each time you make an insertion.  I tend to do the "pretty" stuff
in the gui and use the code editor (which has autocomplete and some
other nice stuff) to do the code.  In some cases (like constructing
querys etc) DW makes it very easy to accomplish and provides CONSISTANT
and WORKING code, which is something that beginning web builders have a
hard time with. Even if you are set on doing hand code, do it with a
coding editor such as Dreamweaver - the color coding, line numbers etc
make it much easier to debug

I would at ALL COSTS -- stay away from Front Page -- the code that it
produces is HORRIBLE.

Tim


Timothy A. Holmes
IT Manager / Network Admin / Web Master / Computer Teacher
 
Medina Christian Academy
A Higher Standard...
 
Jeremiah 33:3
Jeremiah 29:11
Esther 4:14


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Re: [gentoo-user] FTP Server

[Michael Crute]

On 6/6/06, Timothy A. Holmes <tholmes@mcaschool.net> wrote:
> > On 6/6/06, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I agree with Daniel, if you learn on a GUI its far too easy to make
> > > bad websites. Start with VI and a good book, and do yourself a favor
> > > learning CSS and XHTML since that is where web design is headed.
> >
> > It is probably a good idea to start with a good text editor and a
> > book, but trying to learn vi and web design at the same time might be
> > a bit overwhelming!
> >
> > -- Evan
> > --
> > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
> [Timothy A. Holmes]
>
> In this sense I am afraid I cannot agree with you.  While I agree that
> it is ABSOLUTLY essential to learn XHTML and CSS code, trying to start
> from a blank vi or notepad screen is an exercise in frustration -- been
> there done that -- as I was beginning to learn web programming, working
> under incredible pressure from the then resident administration, I was
> trying to hand code everything in Visual InterDev.  The crowning moment
> was 5 hours spent to produce 2 lines of NON-WORKING code. I far more
> recommend a authoring package like Dreamweaver that allows you to flip
> views or even split the views, so you can see what is happening to your
> code each time you make an insertion.  I tend to do the "pretty" stuff
> in the gui and use the code editor (which has autocomplete and some
> other nice stuff) to do the code.  In some cases (like constructing
> querys etc) DW makes it very easy to accomplish and provides CONSISTANT
> and WORKING code, which is something that beginning web builders have a
> hard time with. Even if you are set on doing hand code, do it with a
> coding editor such as Dreamweaver - the color coding, line numbers etc
> make it much easier to debug
>
> I would at ALL COSTS -- stay away from Front Page -- the code that it
> produces is HORRIBLE.

I can agree that you may want autocomplete and color coding, maybe
even a gui preview but in that case (on Windows) use Notepadd++,
Firefox, and ALT+TAB. If you start in a GUI editor it tends to make
you lazy conseqently causes you to create bad sites. Its much more to
your advantage to RTFM and not take shortcuts.

-Mike

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