From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95FB6139083 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:51:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 57CC1E103B; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:51:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from w1.tutanota.de (w1.tutanota.de [81.3.6.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC3AFE0F0E for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:51:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B33AFB4F1A for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:51:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (w1.tutanota.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iv5R9hKn_Lf0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 04:51:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from w1.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.162]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711D8FB4F27 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2017 03:51:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tutanota.com; s=20161216; t=1513050676; bh=uvT+c5BRA7Bq+nAR8I9oN8M8zgq6ciSUTDoedwZJ6fA=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=NyhhPubZdPw2AtC+kR0RpxilmLpAqMHpmQRLlVabJxPPXWZfnMj3jvlIZDqYZAQ+K i4jvWk2CNv3NtBJzt97J5viWjxS0L8cAgLmp2z8CHAoh3bxNDTDd7cZfMYIQ+h2upP oUVzccYj3cuXQato7QCAvd1S71iVn3huCh62yqLngZKHBxveMVlNsctyedkM60Z91a /7xLa7RyP34ZsXR3x+OBKvaNLvnb/V+J9ReDfPbsuzwHRVxcHZlJw64rTSI3zGiOHC 9dBxfiKVI4R+hmg5f9bx43xcaSQBkchxka1D5EtHpSdAwMBwlGpRBGha5259wesyl+ hTWmAUAZsFWuQ== Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 04:51:16 +0100 (CET) From: To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <88b882e0-8d57-3b8f-2c08-9d0b9c1c68c5@youngman.org.uk> References: <6582741.F9gJHCEsXr@dell_xps> <2343494.DDJaQvByiF@dell_xps> <6cb25230-9803-2bd4-ee69-66504d0d1822@gmx.com> <5A2D04A1.6090101@youngman.org.uk> <20171210101330.GA5671@ACM> <5A2DA0E0.8080303@youngman.org.uk> <20171210230802.GA26035@waltdnes.org> <<20171210230802.GA26035@waltdnes.org>> <88b882e0-8d57-3b8f-2c08-9d0b9c1c68c5@youngman.org.uk> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory? Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_306297_321292933.1513050676439" X-Archives-Salt: 5549083e-88bd-402f-b152-c69e725e6c41 X-Archives-Hash: d3b265ad7ae4195c7681f894885f7e61 ------=_Part_306297_321292933.1513050676439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a problem because it's a manufactured dependency rather than one that = is necessary or would usually happen, and again systemd gives you no choice= , no control.=C2=A0 It was done to inflate a fragile ego in some one who sh= ould perhaps feel some shame over some of his responses to legitimate bugs,= security and otherwise.=C2=A0=20 seriously, the people making decisions on gnome have fallen into the "one b= est way trap", much like coca cola did with new coke and discontinuing one = of the most successful products world wide.=C2=A0=C2=A0 why, because "most"= =C2=A0 people preferred new coke over the traditional flavor.=C2=A0 what th= ey didn't consider was that many people preferred the classic coke, particu= larly at restaurants, in fact it cost coca cola many of their' restaurant c= hain clients who switched to pepsi.=C2=A0=20 That's what happens when you assume that one size fits all, that one soluti= on is optimal for all situations, and again there's a tremendous level of a= rrogance and disrespect for the community and the paying customer base in p= articular.=C2=A0 It's a form of the big company problem, small companies th= at act like large companies never become large companies, the mega corporat= ions would not exist if they weren't doing it right at one time, but they t= end=C2=A0 to be lazy and sloppy, political etc. as they become larger. =C2= =A0 If i wanted that I'd use winblows. And why oh why would you want software on your' system that you don't use?= =C2=A0 again one obvious example is embedded systems where all resources te= nd to be scarce.=C2=A0 And just having code installed creates vulnerabiliti= es and increases the chances that part of the system will conflict with ano= ther part. The input validation issue is a great example of careless coding in a secur= ity critical piece of code, specifically that anyone with access of any kin= d can DOS with a one liner, though it sometimes has to have a loop because = this bug is not deterministic, i.e. there's a great deal of randomness to i= t (i assume and hope this has been fixed, properly). Dependency based init systems may indeed be the way to go, but the way syst= emd is doing things is like=C2=A0 a catalog of bad programing practices and= bad project administration.=C2=A0 Add to this the way systemd's involvemen= t in everything is increasing tremendously the number of bugs in the code.= =C2=A0 It is well understood that complexity decreases reliability.=C2=A0 B= eause of this, during peace time, approximately one third of our best jet f= ighters have a broken system waiting to be repaired, not always a critical = system, but considering the importance of reliability of jet fighters, and = the tremendous money spent maintaining them it's very impressive to know th= at 2/3 is the best you can count on, under easy conditions. Proclaiming the emperors new clothes are fantastically beautiful only prove= s one to be a fool. "It just doesn't workk" (tm).=C2=A0 "bail on the bloatware"(tm).=C2=A0 Any = one can repeat silly slogans that have no real bearing on anything.=C2=A0 O= h, and of course there's the either or thinking being implied, and the assu= mption that there aren't other solutions which may well be far more optimal= for the average user.=C2=A0 like all sciences and arts computer hardware a= nd software ideals are in flux all the time with genuinely ingenious ideas = popping up everywhere that completely obsolete other methods in some or all= cases. mad.scientist.at.large (a good madscientist) -- 11. Dec 2017 12:20 by antlists@youngman.org.uk: > On 10/12/17 23:08, Walter Dnes wrote: >>> Oddly enough, although the details are different, that passage I've >>> quoted pretty accurately describes how I feel about Gnome ...:-) >> I can't find it right now on Google, but I vaguely remember that >> Lennart asked the Gnome people to make systemd a hard dependancy. Not >> much later logind, which is required by Gnome, picks up systemd as a >> hard dependancy. > > Imho that's no problem. If a higher level has a hard dependency on a lowe= r level, that's no surprise. And why should I care if someone else's deskto= p pulls in any particular low-level plumbing. :-) > > BUT! If my choice of low-level plumbing (systemd) pulls in a desktop I do= n't want that is a BIG PROBLEM. If I'm running headless, I don't even WANT = a desktop !!! I more and more get the feeling that linux is standardising o= n the Gnome desktop, which I really just DO NOT get on with. > > Cheers, > Wol ------=_Part_306297_321292933.1513050676439 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a problem because it's a manufactured dependency rather than one that = is necessary or would usually happen, and again systemd gives you no choice= , no control.  It was done to inflate a fragile ego in some one who sh= ould perhaps feel some shame over some of his responses to legitimate bugs,= security and otherwise. 

seriously, the people making dec= isions on gnome have fallen into the "one best way trap", much li= ke coca cola did with new coke and discontinuing one of the most successful= products world wide.   why, because "most"  peopl= e preferred new coke over the traditional flavor.  what they didn't co= nsider was that many people preferred the classic coke, particularly at res= taurants, in fact it cost coca cola many of their' restaurant chain clients= who switched to pepsi. 

That's what happens when you assu= me that one size fits all, that one solution is optimal for all situations,= and again there's a tremendous level of arrogance and disrespect for the c= ommunity and the paying customer base in particular.  It's a form of t= he big company problem, small companies that act like large companies never= become large companies, the mega corporations would not exist if they were= n't doing it right at one time, but they tend  to be lazy and sloppy, = political etc. as they become larger.   If i wanted that I'd use winbl= ows.

And why oh why would you want software on your' system that= you don't use?  again one obvious example is embedded systems where a= ll resources tend to be scarce.  And just having code installed create= s vulnerabilities and increases the chances that part of the system will co= nflict with another part.

The input validation issue is a great = example of careless coding in a security critical piece of code, specifical= ly that anyone with access of any kind can DOS with a one liner, though it = sometimes has to have a loop because this bug is not deterministic, i.e. th= ere's a great deal of randomness to it (i assume and hope this has been fix= ed, properly).

Dependency based init systems may indeed be the w= ay to go, but the way systemd is doing things is like  a catalog of ba= d programing practices and bad project administration.  Add to this th= e way systemd's involvement in everything is increasing tremendously the nu= mber of bugs in the code.  It is well understood that complexity decre= ases reliability.  Beause of this, during peace time, approximately on= e third of our best jet fighters have a broken system waiting to be repaire= d, not always a critical system, but considering the importance of reliabil= ity of jet fighters, and the tremendous money spent maintaining them it's v= ery impressive to know that 2/3 is the best you can count on, under easy co= nditions.

Proclaiming the emperors new clothes are fantastically= beautiful only proves one to be a fool.

"It just doesn't w= orkk" (tm).  "bail on the bloatware"(tm).  Any one= can repeat silly slogans that have no real bearing on anything.  Oh, = and of course there's the either or thinking being implied, and the assumpt= ion that there aren't other solutions which may well be far more optimal fo= r the average user.  like all sciences and arts computer hardware and = software ideals are in flux all the time with genuinely ingenious ideas pop= ping up everywhere that completely obsolete other methods in some or all ca= ses.

mad.scientist.at.large (a good madscientist)
--


11. Dec 2017 12:20 by antlists@youngman.or= g.uk:

On 10/12/17 = 23:08, Walter Dnes wrote:
Oddly enough, although the= details are different, that passage I've
quoted pretty accurately des= cribes how I feel about Gnome ...:-)
= I can't find it right now on Google, but I vaguely remember that
Len= nart asked the Gnome people to make systemd a hard dependancy. Not
mu= ch later logind, which is required by Gnome, picks up systemd as a
har= d dependancy.

Imho that's no problem. If a higher level h= as a hard dependency on a lower level, that's no surprise. And why should I= care if someone else's desktop pulls in any particular low-level plumbing.= :-)

BUT! If my choice of low-level plumbing (systemd) pulls in = a desktop I don't want that is a BIG PROBLEM. If I'm running headless, I do= n't even WANT a desktop !!! I more and more get the feeling that linux is s= tandardising on the Gnome desktop, which I really just DO NOT get on with.<= br />
Cheers,
Wol
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