From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1QSz3W-0007Ae-Hr for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:10:54 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BB04A1C073; Sat, 4 Jun 2011 22:09:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpout.karoo.kcom.com (smtpout.karoo.kcom.com [212.50.160.34]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236541C073 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2011 22:09:30 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,320,1304290800"; d="scan'208";a="516871347" Received: from 213-152-39-90.dsl.eclipse.net.uk (HELO compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org) ([213.152.39.90]) by smtpout.karoo.kcom.com with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2011 23:09:29 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.102] (unknown [192.168.1.102]) by compaq.stroller.uk.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4377BAA305 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:06:39 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1227) Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] How do I eject an audio CD inside Gnome? From: Stroller In-Reply-To: <20110604113509.GA4200@gaurahari.merseine.nu> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:09:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20110604113509.GA4200@gaurahari.merseine.nu> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1227) X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: bee2eeb078c1d0ac657073f4f5f853d6 On 4 June 2011, at 12:35, Indi wrote: >> ... >> Last time I used Linux on the desktop (in ernest) I had some dreadful = problems with KDE crashing or failing to open under certain = circumstances, which I found frustrating and impossible to overcome. = That was several years ago, and no-one on the mailing list or Usenet = group I tried was able to help; I don't think I knew at the time to try = the KDE mailing list.=20 >=20 > That's not a problem with Linux, it's a problem with kde. You're right. I should have said "last time I used a Free Software = desktop system in earnest." > That's once of the reasons I strongly dislike kde4 BTW -- with kde3 = most=20 > windows users were impressed and easily switched. As you found (and as = we see=20 > daily on this list), kde4 has yet to achieve that level of carefree = stability. I'm afraid I didn't find that at all, sir. This would have been KDE 2, I would guess from the date (c 2001, = Mandrake, c v8).=20 > People whose first experience with *nix involves kde4 =85 And then I tried Irix for a while. Maybe a year or so. >> Currently the biggest thing holding me back from giving Linux another = good chance to prove itself to me is basically that Mac OS X is "good = enough" for me. >=20 > Low standards, or perhaps you just value "other things"? I find something slightly insulting about your reference to my = "standards", and I'm having a little trouble articulating quite why. I = don't know, maybe it's because I'm used to a person having "low = standards" when his girlfriend is dumb, fat or ugly. "That guy has some = low standards, man", "Did you see the face on her?", "Blimey! What about = her arse?" And this is pretty ridiculous, because you obviously don't know what = you're talking about. You clearly wouldn't tolerate using a Mac for even = a few weeks - I doubt even a day - so how can you know what it's really = like to work with? It's impossible for either of us to know which is the "better" operating = system, without committing several weeks to the project. If you're = prepared to do that, then maybe we can arrange a proper comparison. Let = me know when your iMac arrives and tell me what window manager you = suggest. > Does Apple Mail give you the option of wrapping text at a sensible > number of characters? Perhaps it's just your settings...=20 My client wraps lines at a perfectly sensible length. http://linux.stroller.uk.eu.org/Email%20Line%20Wrapping.png >> One concern about using Linux on the desktop is that I don't think = the apps will be as good or as polished as the ones I use currently >=20 > Never understood the obsession with "polish". > Either it works properly or it doesn't. There's a difference between "functional" and "working well".=20 To me, this is all about getting things done. Quickly and efficiently. > Apparently Apple doesn't give a rat's behind about accessibility = issues.=20 Sorry, I don't know anything about accessibility. >> Another is that (I believe) gestures are not supported in present = window managers - presently I can pinch outwards with two fingers to = zoom in on an image, or I can swipe with 4 fingers to show an overview = of my virtual desktops and open windows. Spreading all 5 fingers shows = me the desktop. So I don't like mice, and I was getting pissed off with = cleaning my trackball on a daily basis (the ball kinda gets all clogged = and slow) =85 it's hard to find a device with as many buttons as I can = make trackpad gestures. >=20 > You have a keyboard, why the need to "pinch" something? :) Seriously? You don't have a mouse? Because there are a lot of other = people here you could be discussing this with before starting on one of = my comments and making this about operating-systems and window managers.=20= We have keyboard shortcuts because sometimes it's quicker not to have to = reach for the mouse. Likewise mice have, in recent years, sprouted = additional buttons because sometimes it's easier to use one of those = than to reach for the keyboard. In some ways multitouch trackpad gestures are simply a whole load more = buttons than you have room for on a single mouse. But they are also one = of those things that once you "get" them, you'll never go back. A bit = like `screen` (or `tmux`) or using the command-line in general (or = digital communication or lots of other great examples that sprung to = mind easily before I got distracted, and which I can now no longer = recollect). I can't blame you at all for being sceptical, because they = definitely don't click immediately, but stick with them a few = frustrating days (I did only because my 5 year old desktop died and I = was forced to rely on my laptop for a while), and pretty soon you'll be = asking yourself "how did I live without this?" (and perhaps more to the = point: "how would I live without this?"). >> Nevertheless, there are some things I agree are absolutely shit about = OS X.=20 >=20 > Yes, like FINDER (actually makes windows explorer look almost = reasonable),=20 You know, Finder is not as bad as you would imagine. As Alan says - it = works exactly how Steve thinks it should work. I can imagine it is = absolutely rubbish if you're forced to use it for only a few minutes at = a time. It's been so long since I started using OS X that I can't really = remember how it was at first, but I assuredly felt that way about = Classic (to MacOS 9). But what I do remember from my first days of OS X = is that after a couple of weeks I got used to it - I have been perfectly = happy ever after. I absolutely agree with you that software should *not* force you to do = things its way (the software should do things *your* way) and, = personally, I do think that Windows Explorer or KDE are better. Having a = tree view on the left hand-side of the file-system navigator makes life = a lot easier; I prefer emphasis on right-clicking, and feel that Finder = leaves a lot to be desired in this respect; Finder's viewing and sorting = options are shitty. But you know what? It really doesn't make much = difference. Once you get used to doing it Steve's way it doesn't take = any longer. I can walk out of the store with a new Mac tomorrow (or do a fresh = install on this one), double-click on the iChat icon and enter my AIM = screenname and password - video conferencing will work immediately. = Within 5 minutes of opening the box I can be chatting with my mum in = Australia, and I can just click again to invite my sister to the group.=20= Let's compare that with Meino Cramer's experience. He first posted here = about webcams on the 25th July 2009. He was "still having problems" when = he posted at 9pm yesterday. (As an aside: I should make a screencast = showing how effortlessly I found that information; the search here is = great.) If buying a Mac saves me only 2 days of messing about trying to get a = webcam working, then it has paid for itself. I mean that in terms of the = compromises I'm prepared to make: I'm plenty happy to take a second = longer navigating to a folder to drag and drop a file if I never have to = care what driver I need for my webcam or wifi card, if I never have to = `make menuconfig` and wait for it to compile. The Finder interface would = have to be *really* contrived - it would take me an an awful lot of = drags and drops at a couple of extra seconds a time - to make that a net = loss. On my server? Sure, it can compile away, doing an `emerge -u = world` and a revdep-rebuild to its heart's content. But on my desktop I = don't want to be interrupted by that - I'm interacting with it all the = time and every minute of maintenance is a minute I'm not surfing the = web, chatting or engaging in petty disagreements ;) on mailing lists. Finder is shit? All I'm doing is dragging some files from my SD card = into a folder called "Photos". How bad can it be? > The Mac Defender fiasco is the beginning of the end. > A similar thing happened with the original Mac OS, and within two = years > there were hundred of malware instances just like windows. You know, you might be right.=20 If we could see the future, we would all be dot-com millionaires.=20 10.3 and 10.4 were great releases, IMO. Each release of OS X since, I = have thought "this looks a bit shit, what's Steve going to mess up for = me this time?" Each time since I've contemplated switching to Linux and, so far, each = time the butchery hasn't been as bad as I've feared. Each time some nice = improvements have been made that I've been pleased with. I've been lucky 3 times now, I don't imagine this will go on forever. Linux will surely be the first o/s I'll try when OS X no longer meets my = needs. And the readers of this list will probably be the first to hear = about it. I've got nothing to hide here, nothing to boast about.=20 If you could prove to me that Linux would be a better desktop experience = than OS X, then I'd be grateful to you for your help. But I don't see = that you can. You can't prove it with a few screenshots or even with a = video. I don't think you're trying with your words, because you're not = telling me all the great things about a Linux desktop, you're trying to = shit on the interface that I use for several hours a day, every day. And = I know about that better than you do. The only way this fantastic Linux desktop environment can be proven to = me is by experiencing it, and I have no need to do that - I have a great = workspace here on my Mac. Right now all you're doing is arguing and = wasting my time - in fact the time I've spent replying to Volker and = you, I could have installed a Linux desktop by now. Tell me "this is = great", "that is great" and maybe I'll give it a go. Right now you're in = a very poor position to convince me, because all your arguments are = based on the platform that I know much, much better than you do. If someone posts again in the future saying "my Linux box isn't working, = Macs are so crap" then I will pipe up and make appropriate corrections. = Apart from that, you all get one response. This was yours. (I should = have mentioned this in my reply to Volker, but he doesn't come here to = listen to other peoples' opinions, so I gave up on him a long time ago). = I'll defend my position, but I'm not going to get drawn into some dumb = flamewar - if you want that, I suggest you put your foot down to 88mph = and go argue vi vs. emacs. I use Linux every day, and I am devoted to it. Of course my Mac doesn't = do everything a Linux box does! Nor does Linux do everything my Mac = does; I know Linux well enough to be fairly confident of that. I don't = live in a house with only one computer, though, and I doubt that you do, = either. All I'm asking is that you keep an open mind, and that everybody not = talk shit about things they don't know. Just because Volker helped his = auntie with her computer does not make him an expert on Apple Macs. Are = you telling me that I could sit down at a Linux desktop tomorrow and = find my way around it as well as you can? Do you think I would find all = the preferences you have set up just the way you like them? No, probably = not. I would love to have a really *detailed* discussion about Linux = desktop interface nuances with you - we might agree on many points - but = it would take me 3 weeks before I could start having that conversation = about a single window manager.=20 Stroller.