From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EC83G-0001y0-P1 for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:53:47 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j853nKX0031129; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 03:49:20 GMT Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j853h6Cm012405 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 03:43:07 GMT Received: from mac.com (smtpin01-en2 [10.13.10.146]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/8.12.11/smtpout02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id j853k8Yn027942 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 20:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe001217fa060b-cm0013718c1a36.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.24.10.222]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin01/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id j853k5xA003711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 20:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <20050904202039.286aa8a4@chi.speakeasy.net> References: <200509010402.j8141G5V026647@robin.gentoo.org> <43171ED0.6040402@Media-Brokers.com> <20050903223954.GA2047@waltdnes.org> <5bdc1c8b05090315561f193c1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050904190742.4dfd4d46@krikkit.digimed.co.uk> <5bdc1c8b050904130268e0cde5@mail.gmail.com> <20050904215718.1c64d0f0@hactar.digimed.co.uk> <5bdc1c8b0509041411517d35ae@mail.gmail.com> <20050905005656.0dde7f0f@hactar.digimed.co.uk> <20050904202039.286aa8a4@chi.speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Paul Hoy Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Slightly OT: favorite window manager/desktop environ? Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 23:46:02 -0400 To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Archives-Salt: 7a4805d6-9a7b-43f5-82ad-feb418a2b023 X-Archives-Hash: 3ef92503c281a43f83ec7b4640ed889b On Sep 4, 2005, at 11:20 PM, Bob Sanders wrote: > On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 00:56:56 +0100 > Neil Bothwick wrote: > > > >> Fair comment. If you're talking about individual user/admins then the >> learning curve of installing and administering a different OS (not >> necessarily more difficult, just different) is a serious obstacle. >> >> > > Based on my experiences, I'll disagree with you Neil. I had a > couple of > interns working for me last year. One was about to graduate from > college and the > other was in the middle of getting a Master's degree. Both were > comp-sci majors. > The Master's degree intern had been running Red Hat or something, > but really didn't > know Linux. The other intern used WinXX - college was teaching her > Java, > nothing much more than that. > > First thing I did was get them set up with systems and hand them a > Gentoo minimal > CD and url for the installation manual. Told them to ask anything > they wanted at any > time. Explained to them that they needed to learn Linux, but that > RPM based distros > wouldn't give them any type of broad knowledge, and wouldn't be any > better than learning > to install WinXX. They took about a week, with a couple of > restarts, had them run fluxbox > and Enlightenment before allowing them to run their choice of WM. > Eventually, they moved > to KDE, which is fine, but they had an X environment and additional > knowledge, they could > work while KDE was compiling. *Btw - they were also learning how > to install and use Irix > at the same time.) > > While they were there, they had no real problems with Gentoo. As > part of their task at the > time was porting/fixing former Irix tests to run on Linux, it was > a lot easier to deal with the > issues on Gentoo, then move the the tests to RH and SuSE, where all > kinds of things > broke. But they were more able to fix the tests because they had a > better peek under > the hood. > > While they've left to go to other companies, one of the interns > told me that she misses her > Gentoo system - she's back in the Java/WinXX world of Corporate > computing. > > For training new technical individuals on Linux, source based > distributions with package > management systems that stay out of the way, are great tools. > Even if the end of the road > for many of them is some - keep your distance, GUI installer based, > RPM Linux system. > > For a long time I used to think that starting a new user with a > nice RPM based distribution > was the right answer. I was wrong. It's the wrong answer. It > teaches them nothing they > can use in the future. It's painful during upgrades. It binds > their hands in the shackles of - > you will do things the way we tell you to do them. And letting new > users utilize GUI based > installers, always ends in - where is the install everything check > box? > > They may migrate to another distribution, and that's fine. But > they will be prepared and > have knowledge. To use Holly's car analogy - they learned to > drive a stick shift, but > now want an automatic. No problem. (It's a poor analogy on my > part - too simplistic > and not fair to Portage.) > > Also, this isn't just the two interns. With only two exceptions - > a Slackware user, and a > remote Engineer who prefers to have Corp IS administrate the box, > I've moved a lot of > technical people to Gentoo. A few have gone to other dists, and a > few have returned > back to Gentoo - the others are just too painful to administer. > But, in all cases, they > are more knowledgeable because of having to "do things the hard > way." And being > more knowledgeable make them much more valuable as skilled > employees. More so than > any certification will. > > Bob > - > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > Hi Bob, I found your email really informative and I have a question regarding one of your final comments. To paraphrase, you state that doing things the hard way will make employees more knowledgeable, "more so than any certification will." So, my question is this: is it worthwhile to obtain certification? And, if so, which would be a better choice in your opinion: Red Hat certification or say, for instance, certification from the Linux Professional Institute? Btw, I'm not sure if I have hijacked the thread. If so, please feel free to edit the subject line. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list