[gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[Alexandru Mincu]

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Hi guys,
I have(or better may have) a project to build and maintain a company's
network.
I was thinking into proposing gentoo since it's got my heart, but I have
some questions about which things should i use for a base installation.
My setup will look like this:
big server with 2 or 3 gigabit ethernet cards and lots of sata drives in a
big raid array.
disk less workstations with 512mb or 1gb of ram, nvidia or integrated video
and a gigabit ethernet card.
and of course a gigabit ethernet switch.

First of all let's start with the clients...
I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them if
you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might be a
better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept some
suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
consideration all the things i want to add.

Things required:
Email,
Calendar  sharing,
IM,
Office suite,
other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted here) :)
Web  browsing,
A content management system

I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's features
but it seems to be more unstable than compiz.

Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a company ..
should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo that keeps things
down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should keep my own tree and
sync only the stuff I want and test into it?

Now the nice part,
What about the disk less clients? is there a way to keep a stable file
system for all the workstations without requiring to copy all the base files
for each workstation? It would be nice to be able to dynamical add
workstations to the network without requiring admin intervention...
>From what I have seen in the gentoo diskless faq it suggested doing an
separate dir for each client in the network....

The big questions are:
What software/configurations would you use if you would want to do this with
gentoo?
What are the good points in using the system instead of using MS Windows
(besides the money)?

PS: Excuse my English.

Thanks,
Alexandru Mincu < mincua@gmail.com>
Tel: +40745515505/+40723573761

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RE: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[McCaffrey, Ennis]

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Have you checked out the Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP)?
 
http://gentoo-wiki.com/Index:LTSP
 
http://ltsp.sourceforge.net/
 
Ennis

________________________________

From: Alexandru Mincu [mailto:mincua@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:43 PM
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)


Hi guys,
I have(or better may have) a project to build and maintain a company's
network.
I was thinking into proposing gentoo since it's got my heart, but I have
some questions about which things should i use for a base installation. 
My setup will look like this:
big server with 2 or 3 gigabit ethernet cards and lots of sata drives in
a big raid array.
disk less workstations with 512mb or 1gb of ram, nvidia or integrated
video and a gigabit ethernet card. 
and of course a gigabit ethernet switch.

First of all let's start with the clients...
I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them
if you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might
be a better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept
some suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
consideration all the things i want to add. 

Things required:
Email,
Calendar  sharing,
IM,
Office suite,
other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted
here) :)
Web  browsing,
A content management system

I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's
features but it seems to be more unstable than compiz. 

Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a
company .. should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo
that keeps things down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should
keep my own tree and sync only the stuff I want and test into it? 

Now the nice part,
What about the disk less clients? is there a way to keep a stable file
system for all the workstations without requiring to copy all the base
files for each workstation? It would be nice to be able to dynamical add
workstations to the network without requiring admin intervention... 
From what I have seen in the gentoo diskless faq it suggested doing an
separate dir for each client in the network....

The big questions are:
What software/configurations would you use if you would want to do this
with gentoo? 
What are the good points in using the system instead of using MS Windows
(besides the money)?

PS: Excuse my English.

Thanks,
Alexandru Mincu < mincua@gmail.com <mailto:mincua@gmail.com> >
Tel: +40745515505/+40723573761




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Re: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[Hans-Werner Hilse]

Hi,

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:43:16 +0200
"Alexandru Mincu" <mincua@gmail.com> wrote:

> My setup will look like this:
> big server with 2 or 3 gigabit ethernet cards and lots of sata drives in a
> big raid array.
> disk less workstations with 512mb or 1gb of ram, nvidia or integrated video
> and a gigabit ethernet card.
> and of course a gigabit ethernet switch.

Hm. Are those "diskless" workstations supposed to be thin clients (i.e.
just displays for applications running on the big iron)? Probably not,
I guess. So your "big iron" will probably be a file server. For serious
productive work either virtualize the web-, mail- and calender servers
or even better make them separate machines. It's easier to maintain the
pieces when each of them has its own environment. You'll also need a
lot of CPU power on the main rig just for getting the needed throughput.

If you're going to go that road, I would suggest to offer your client
terminals access to a common, NFS read-only shared root and individual
shares for home directories. Make a testing environment and regularly
make it the new root if it has proven to be stable. Always remember
that the common root file system is now a single point of failure for
the whole company's productivity.

> First of all let's start with the clients...
> I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them if
> you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might be a
> better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept some
> suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
> consideration all the things i want to add.

I don't think it's a big issue. Maybe others have more experience in
maintaining a common desktop environment in larger environments.

> Things required:
> Email,
> Calendar  sharing,
> IM,
> Office suite,
> other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted here) :)
> Web  browsing,
> A content management system

Should be possible in one way or another.

> I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
> compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
> nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
> which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
> Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's features
> but it seems to be more unstable than compiz.

Hm, I don't know what kind of company we're talking about, but is this
really a mission critical issue? I think my boss would be scared and
thinking "heck, this guy has to much time for playing, let's give him
more work" -- but hey, I'm german and probably not supposed to have fun
at work :-)

> Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a company ..
> should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo that keeps things
> down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should keep my own tree and
> sync only the stuff I want and test into it?
> Now the nice part,
> What about the disk less clients? is there a way to keep a stable file
> system for all the workstations without requiring to copy all the base files
> for each workstation? It would be nice to be able to dynamical add
> workstations to the network without requiring admin intervention...
> From what I have seen in the gentoo diskless faq it suggested doing an
> separate dir for each client in the network....

I would suggest to share the full root file system read-only by NFS
(i.e., probably just a chroot environment in which you maintain a
client-specific environment). It will be a bit of a PITA to get the
configuration for each specific client done in a sane way (writable,
client-specific NFS unionfs mount onto /etc and /var?) but easier than
maintaining N copies of the same stuff on the same RAID (after all, you
said "diskless clients", right?).

> What are the good points in using the system instead of using MS Windows
> (besides the money)?

They can't ever fire you. Really. They would lose productivity _and_ data.

> PS: Excuse my English.

Not that this means anything, but since I think I understood every
single word, I'd say it's excellent :-)


-hwh
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-user] Mailinglist Nettiquette (was Putting gentoo to work :))

[Harm Geerts]

Welcome to this list Ennis !
It's great to see yet another user join this mailinglist to provide help, 
feedback and insights to fellow users that are in need.

However I would like to point you to a thread [1] started by  
Alan McKinnon when he first joined this list. You see, each mailinglist has 
certain *preferences* when it comes to posting. Judging by your posthistory 
on this list, you have never been made aware of these preferences.

I would encourage you to read it and consider it for future posts to this 
list.

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/162882
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[b.n.]

Alexandru Mincu ha scritto:
> First of all let's start with the clients...
> I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them
> if you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might
> be a better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept
> some suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
> consideration all the things i want to add.
> 
> Things required:
> Email,
> Calendar  sharing,
> IM,
> Office suite,
> other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted here) :)
> Web  browsing,
> A content management system

You should be a bit more clear.
- What is the, let's say, noobness-level of users of the thin clients?
Will they be scared by anything not exactly Windows-like or not?
- What do you mean *exactly* for CMS? A web based CMS, for an internal
blog for example? Is this centralized or maintained by users? Do you
instead need something for mutual information sharing and deposit? (in
this case, I'd advice for a Wiki) Or it is something local, user
specific, to take notes etc.? (in that case, Tomboy or basKet could be
nice apps)
- Do you need connectivity with external Windows machines? MS Exchange
servers?
- Do you need to exchange data with MS Office users?
- IM is fully internal or need interoperability with external apps?
Which ones? Do you need VOIP?

Only thing I can directly advice you is Firefox for web browsing (best
support). For everything else, I don't know. A general advice could be
to keep as much as possible applications belonging to the same desktop.
I'm quite on the KDE side, and I think that Konqueror (the file
manager), K3b and Kopete are truly superior apps that may make the
difference in your case.

> I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
> compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
> nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
> which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
> Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's
> features but it seems to be more unstable than compiz.

I think compiz and beryl, in their current state, make little sense for
such a corporate network. However I understand they can impress your
boss in letting him think (rightly so, even if for partially wrong
reasons) that you are installing a technically superior solution.

Well, it seems currently Beryl is the one gaining momentum. The recent
Wall plugin seems at the same time very useful and very visually
impressive. If you are sure about going that way, stick to *really*
useful plugins (basically the Exposè-like thing, I don't remember its
name, and the Wall). About stability, I can't say.

> Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a
> company .. should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo
> that keeps things down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should
> keep my own tree and sync only the stuff I want and test into it?

I'd go for the second. Hardened gentoo could be an idea, but I truly
don't know what kind of problems it can have -personally I would put a
tight OpenBSD firewall between the server and the Internet.

In every case, having a test machine where checking *every* package
upgrade extensively should be a must.

m.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[Alexandru Mincu]

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On 2/10/07, b.n. <brullonulla@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alexandru Mincu ha scritto:
> > First of all let's start with the clients...
> > I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them
> > if you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might
> > be a better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept
> > some suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
> > consideration all the things i want to add.
> >
> > Things required:
> > Email,
> > Calendar  sharing,
> > IM,
> > Office suite,
> > other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted
> here) :)
> > Web  browsing,
> > A content management system
>
> You should be a bit more clear.
> - What is the, let's say, noobness-level of users of the thin clients?
> Will they be scared by anything not exactly Windows-like or not?


Well they are all noobs ... I  am talking  about like 90%  of the  people
there  don't have any idea linux exists :). That's why usability is a key
here... i want it to be easy to use even if you did not ever see a linux
desktop in your life.

- What do you mean *exactly* for CMS? A web based CMS, for an internal
> blog for example? Is this centralized or maintained by users? Do you
> instead need something for mutual information sharing and deposit? (in
> this case, I'd advice for a Wiki) Or it is something local, user
> specific, to take notes etc.? (in that case, Tomboy or basKet could be
> nice apps)


Well I was thinking about a web based cms, kind of like a wiki but i would
also like the possibility to store versioned files and manage documents per
task(i mean for this matter you have 5 written files).

- Do you need connectivity with external Windows machines? MS Exchange
> servers?


Well i was thinking into configuring the server to be a VPN server and
giving VNC clients that connet to a VNC server in the network ... this way
they can access their hole desktop and not just 1 thing from the windows
machines.... This is because I hope that the only windows machines there
will be the laptops and not the desktops.
Not exchange server there for the moment .... I would prefer an OS variant
to exchange ...

- Do you need to exchange data with MS Office users?


Well ... you always need  this... but i think OO  dose a good job for that
....

- IM is fully internal or need interoperability with external apps?


well i will start with  an internal server and mabe use gaim to let users
access them all :).

Which ones? Do you need VOIP?


No voip.

Only thing I can directly advice you is Firefox for web browsing (best
> support). For everything else, I don't know. A general advice could be
> to keep as much as possible applications belonging to the same desktop.
> I'm quite on the KDE side, and I think that Konqueror (the file
> manager), K3b and Kopete are truly superior apps that may make the
> difference in your case.
>
> > I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
> > compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
> > nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
> > which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
> > Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's
> > features but it seems to be more unstable than compiz.
>
> I think compiz and beryl, in their current state, make little sense for
> such a corporate network. However I understand they can impress your
> boss in letting him think (rightly so, even if for partially wrong
> reasons) that you are installing a technically superior solution.
>
> Well, it seems currently Beryl is the one gaining momentum. The recent
> Wall plugin seems at the same time very useful and very visually
> impressive. If you are sure about going that way, stick to *really*
> useful plugins (basically the Exposè-like thing, I don't remember its
> name, and the Wall). About stability, I can't say.


Yes ... I also saw the Wall plugin ... and was thinking about the same thing
... I must do an XGL+beryl install and stress test it to see CPU usage and
stability.

> Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a
> > company .. should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo
> > that keeps things down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should
> > keep my own tree and sync only the stuff I want and test into it?
>
> I'd go for the second. Hardened gentoo could be an idea, but I truly
> don't know what kind of problems it can have -personally I would put a
> tight OpenBSD firewall between the server and the Internet.
>
> In every case, having a test machine where checking *every* package
> upgrade extensively should be a must.


Thought so ... hard work but it's worth it :).

m.


Thanks :)

--
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Alexandru Mincu <mincua@gmail.com>
Tel: +40745515505/+40723573761

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Re: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[Alexandru Mincu]

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On 2/9/07, Hans-Werner Hilse <hilse@web.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:43:16 +0200
> "Alexandru Mincu" <mincua@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My setup will look like this:
> > big server with 2 or 3 gigabit ethernet cards and lots of sata drives in
> a
> > big raid array.
> > disk less workstations with 512mb or 1gb of ram, nvidia or integrated
> video
> > and a gigabit ethernet card.
> > and of course a gigabit ethernet switch.
>
> Hm. Are those "diskless" workstations supposed to be thin clients (i.e.
> just displays for applications running on the big iron)? Probably not,
> I guess. So your "big iron" will probably be a file server. For serious
> productive work either virtualize the web-, mail- and calender servers
> or even better make them separate machines. It's easier to maintain the
> pieces when each of them has its own environment. You'll also need a
> lot of CPU power on the main rig just for getting the needed throughput.


Yes i am not thinking about thin clients as in X client only ... I  am
thinking about mounting / as NFS.
Tanks for the servers tip ... I will try to use different machines where
possible if not then Xen/Vmware/whatever else

If you're going to go that road, I would suggest to offer your client
> terminals access to a common, NFS read-only shared root and individual
> shares for home directories. Make a testing environment and regularly
> make it the new root if it has proven to be stable. Always remember
> that the common root file system is now a single point of failure for
> the whole company's productivity.


The single point of failure is a problem but when you think that most people
just use their local hard drives to store sensitive data and start
complaining when their hard disk fails I think it's not a big issue ... If
the fonds will give me the possibility I will make 2 different servers with
synchronization(if it's possible .. haven't thought about that yet) and
switch to backup when needed.

> First of all let's start with the clients...
> > I am a Gnome fan and I think it is better and simpler to use, but them
> if
> > you have windows users that you want to put to use linux, kde might be a
> > better option... although this is a matter of taste I would accept some
> > suggestions(without killing each other here), bu please take in
> > consideration all the things i want to add.
>
> I don't think it's a big issue. Maybe others have more experience in
> maintaining a common desktop environment in larger environments.
>
> > Things required:
> > Email,
> > Calendar  sharing,
> > IM,
> > Office suite,
> > other bullshit managers use to put you to work(suggestions accepted
> here) :)
> > Web  browsing,
> > A content management system
>
> Should be possible in one way or another.
>
> > I also think that some eye candy would be gr8 to have ... I tried both
> > compiz and beryl, but none were stable for me... it's true i was using
> > nvidia's beta driers but anyway. have any of you tried compiz or beryl?
> > which one is really stable and ready to use for a company? Is the
> > Xgl+(compiz|beryl) variant stable? I for one really liked beryl's
> features
> > but it seems to be more unstable than compiz.
>
> Hm, I don't know what kind of company we're talking about, but is this
> really a mission critical issue? I think my boss would be scared and
> thinking "heck, this guy has to much time for playing, let's give him
> more work" -- but hey, I'm german and probably not supposed to have fun
> at work :-)


Yes well I am from Romania and if your boss dosen't kow shit about computers
then he will be impressed by the eye candy :)

> Now for updates .. which profile do you think would better suit a company
> ..
> > should I use hardend gentoo? Is there a version of gentoo that keeps
> things
> > down with the upgrades to stable packages or I should keep my own tree
> and
> > sync only the stuff I want and test into it?
> > Now the nice part,
> > What about the disk less clients? is there a way to keep a stable file
> > system for all the workstations without requiring to copy all the base
> files
> > for each workstation? It would be nice to be able to dynamical add
> > workstations to the network without requiring admin intervention...
> > From what I have seen in the gentoo diskless faq it suggested doing an
> > separate dir for each client in the network....
>
> I would suggest to share the full root file system read-only by NFS
> (i.e., probably just a chroot environment in which you maintain a
> client-specific environment). It will be a bit of a PITA to get the
> configuration for each specific client done in a sane way (writable,
> client-specific NFS unionfs mount onto /etc and /var?) but easier than
> maintaining N copies of the same stuff on the same RAID (after all, you
> said "diskless clients", right?).


right

> What are the good points in using the system instead of using MS Windows
> > (besides the money)?
>
> They can't ever fire you. Really. They would lose productivity _and_ data.


well i won't be hired there .. but I could not louse the support contract :)


> PS: Excuse my English.
>
> Not that this means anything, but since I think I understood every
> single word, I'd say it's excellent :-)


Thanks.

-hwh
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Alexandru Mincu <mincua@gmail.com>
Tel: +40745515505/+40723573761

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Re: [gentoo-user] Putting gentoo to work :)

[b.n.]

Alexandru Mincu ha scritto:
> On 2/10/07, *b.n.* <brullonulla@gmail.com
> <mailto:brullonulla@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Well they are all noobs ... I  am talking  about like 90%  of the 
> people  there  don't have any idea linux exists :). That's why usability
> is a key here... i want it to be easy to use even if you did not ever
> see a linux desktop in your life.

In this case I'd stick to KDE, with Windows-like customizations when needed.
The behaviour of default kde is often a bit more windows-like than gnome
(think of the file dialog/ the OK/Cancel buttons order etc.).

> Well I was thinking about a web based cms, kind of like a wiki but i
> would also like the possibility to store versioned files and manage
> documents per task(i mean for this matter you have 5 written files).

Mediawiki (the software that runs Wikipedia) is quite easy to set up and
could do what you are looking for.

>     - IM is fully internal or need interoperability with external apps?
> 
> well i will start with  an internal server and mabe use gaim to let
> users access them all :).

IMHO Kopete is better and it is integrated with KDE, if you take my
advice to choose it. Test both, however.

m.

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