From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25961381F3 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:51:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70689E0B8A; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:50:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ve0-f169.google.com (mail-ve0-f169.google.com [209.85.128.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D366E0AFB for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:50:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ve0-f169.google.com with SMTP id db10so2905516veb.14 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 03:50:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=uABBD/QKeNTdBC6WUAm3GOGkePoISSnqNkgiwxf5KTY=; b=YN2BtQdvLr0OHZ0lYvK2pRT555Z2WUL87ESU1lfhqyIGRMWZDOS0DfiyZS+ZZ9XbIE nBRY4LvjyTDwQuDd3EEDqI39R+mcJSR/Bp9AC1eCbO+wc606FeOUdbcvxuQGTk0Ar7Nr bnhNzGti20tj9ZlV1D+6Ex1PK3rahVoPkulIQXvSBAeN3sw9z48tAPqKeyW3d9SUsc32 DsasM6WJOFzZMpe7cBht3n7Jt027o3WR/tlOPrvrVh0pOcRRQxR9kcUurOanQoBq2yo+ d+g8e0Z644pONJYbCzY/fw7Se6pRn9lLJcQwXKv6Ct0FGZJrmugqNI9sRizDDKkVALAd ChzA== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.44.136 with SMTP id ug8mr12792744vcb.13.1376909450454; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 03:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Sender: alon.barlev@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.255.193 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 03:50:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5211EDAC.9040401@gmail.com> References: <5211226F.2000000@libertytrek.org> <201308182208.43780.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <521142A7.1020702@coolmail.se> <52114F82.5070608@gmail.com> <5211E5DE.2050901@coolmail.se> <5211EDAC.9040401@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 13:50:50 +0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ogrGIqr2a3xt0de0PFaaND5ixYc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Optional /usr merge in Gentoo From: Alon Bar-Lev To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: 4e6511fb-72c3-4377-a1ea-5ee621df3b80 X-Archives-Hash: 51417314ff7fda2f77dba2a01239bb04 On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 19/08/2013 11:31, pk wrote: >> On 2013-08-19 00:49, Dale wrote: >> >>> Picking random message sort of. Isn't eudev still going to support a >>> separate /usr? That is my understanding. If eudev is not then I may >>> have to reconsider some things myself here. >> >> Yes, that is my understanding as well. But the "decision" to not support >> a separate /usr lies higher up in the system hierarchy (as I understand >> it). Gentoo as a system will not support a separate /usr if we are to >> believe the conversation (I haven't seen any official notice of this >> though). That is the sad part. The problem I have, as an engineer, is >> that "everybody" says that a separate /usr is broken, that sysvinit is >> broken without explaining why. In order to fix a problem you need to >> know what is broken... The people who claims the brokenness are, imo, >> hand waving and they've managed to convince higher uppers in the Gentoo >> infrastructure (as it seems). I guess if you repeat something often >> enough it becomes a "truth" or said person(s) just agrees to stop the >> nagging. > > > It's not that separate /usr is broken - it's not. > > The issue is a separate /usr without an initramfs. And the issue ONLY > occurs at early-boot time. > > The problem is that with modern hardware much code that was > traditionally stored in /usr may be needed early in the boot sequence, > before /usr is mounted. The obvious case is firmware and drivers, and > the usual example cited is bluetooth keyboards. If you need keyboard > input at this time, you need to have the bluetooth daemon running, which > is on /usr, which is not mounted. > > The solution is to use an initramfs, and on a technical level it's not > any different to needing a way to get the ext4 module off disk so you > can mount /. > > Some may argue that bluetooth keyboards are a rarity and that's tough. > Well, there's Macbook hardware, and phones which have soft keyboards. > But many scenarios could exist, all due to the fact that hot-pluggable > hardware can in theory run any arbitrary code to get itself up and > running, and if that code is on a volume that is not mounted... The > solution is obvious - all that code should be on / somewhere, or should > be mountable using an initramfs. You fail to understand why separate / is required. Had the argument was: If you have special needs then have /usr mounted at boot. I would have agreed. This means that if you are using bluetooth keyboard, well you do have an extra requirement. However, because of your specific configuration drop the ability to recover from filesystem corruptions or be able to repair is totally different issue. > Personally, I think that splitting / and /usr is a daft idea: > > a. I have multi-TB hard disks, completely unlike the 5M monsters that > Thomson had to deal with in the 70s You could have mounted several disk at boot even in the 70s. > b. I haven't had /usr break on me during boot requiring busybox in > maintenance mode for at least 5 years. Every startup failure in that > time required a rescue cd anyway, and I always have one of those handy This is your take... and it is totally wrong. > c. it IS useful for terminal servers, but those tend to have experienced > sysadmins, and they really should be OK with an initramfs (or their > vendor should ship one) Who is that vendor? so you along with systemd, udev, gnome, etc... do you suggest the same vendor will also provide initramfs for gentoo... maybe this is the next stage of systemd... > I'm often at the front of the Lennart-bashing parade, and what he says > often makes sense but only in his narrow view of the world, but in > *this* case, I can't help but admit he does have a point. Again, there is no reason why not support separate /usr configuration, people who have special needs, like running systemd or have special complex userland hardware that is a must for single user mode can always mount /usr at early stage. But because of the fact that you are using systemd or have bluetooth keyboard force everyone to merge /usr is something that is unclear to me. > > -- > Alan McKinnon > alan.mckinnon@gmail.com > >