[gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

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hello everyone.
I was trying to emerge chromium and I noticed that it should download about
200 Mb, and no wonder cause it is source files, not binary executable.
However I wanted to know that if a new version of chromium comes out, an
update will download another 200 Mb or just a diff files to patch the
altered files ? (I am a new user and I have not experienced that situation!)
Regards

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Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:38:04 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:

> I was trying to emerge chromium and I noticed that it should download
> about 200 Mb, and no wonder cause it is source files, not binary
> executable. However I wanted to know that if a new version of chromium
> comes out, an update will download another 200 Mb or just a diff files
> to patch the altered files ? (I am a new user and I have not
> experienced that situation!)

It will download the source for the new version, which is generally a
separate tarball, so another 200MB. That's how Gentoo works, with very
few exceptions that source is downloaded and compiled.

If you want to avoid the large download and lengthy compile time of
chromium, use www-client/google-chrome instead, this is the pre-compiled
binary from Google.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

EMail - garbage at the speed of light.

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Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

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well chromium was just an example. I just think that when there is a
version upgrade, a patch should be enough.
I have read that portage is migrating to git, but I guess I got it wrong,
because I thought that the source codes will be maintained using git too.
However why not? why not use git for source maintenance too?

regards.


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:38:04 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:
>
> > I was trying to emerge chromium and I noticed that it should download
> > about 200 Mb, and no wonder cause it is source files, not binary
> > executable. However I wanted to know that if a new version of chromium
> > comes out, an update will download another 200 Mb or just a diff files
> > to patch the altered files ? (I am a new user and I have not
> > experienced that situation!)
>
> It will download the source for the new version, which is generally a
> separate tarball, so another 200MB. That's how Gentoo works, with very
> few exceptions that source is downloaded and compiled.
>
> If you want to avoid the large download and lengthy compile time of
> chromium, use www-client/google-chrome instead, this is the pre-compiled
> binary from Google.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> EMail - garbage at the speed of light.
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
> well chromium was just an example. I just think that when there is a version
> upgrade, a patch should be enough.

For things like backports you're fairly likely to only get a patch.
However, for an upstream version change (which chromium seems to have
every other week) you're probably going to get a full tarball.

> I have read that portage is migrating to git, but I guess I got it wrong,
> because I thought that the source codes will be maintained using git too.
> However why not? why not use git for source maintenance too?

Portage probably will migrate to git at some point, but when it does
you'll probably not notice a thing.

Gentoo doesn't maintain the source to chromium - upstream does.  In
some cases Gentoo doesn't even redistribute the source (licensing
issues).  For chromium Google publishes a tarball on googleapis.com
and Gentoo mirrors it.

There has been talk about creating some kind of source repository for
things like patches/etc, but that isn't going to really change when we
distribute patches vs upstream tarballs.  Generally speaking upstream
tarballs are preferred over patches to keep things simple.  With what
we do now you know you're basically getting chromium as upstream
distributes it.  If we were to just mirror chrome-25 and 300 binary
diffs to patch it up to the current version nobody could keep track of
it all, and while you'd save some space on each upgrade your first
install might involve downloading 10GB of diffs unless we went even
further and had a variety of full vs incremental files.  This has been
discussed in terms of having portage on squashfs and just doing it for
our own stuff looks to be fairly painful, let alone doing it for every
upstream out there.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[thegeezer]

On 29/07/14 12:00, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> well chromium was just an example. I just think that when there is a version
>> upgrade, a patch should be enough.
> For things like backports you're fairly likely to only get a patch.
> However, for an upstream version change (which chromium seems to have
> every other week) you're probably going to get a full tarball.
>
>> I have read that portage is migrating to git, but I guess I got it wrong,
>> because I thought that the source codes will be maintained using git too.
>> However why not? why not use git for source maintenance too?
> Portage probably will migrate to git at some point, but when it does
> you'll probably not notice a thing.
>
> Gentoo doesn't maintain the source to chromium - upstream does.  In
> some cases Gentoo doesn't even redistribute the source (licensing
> issues).  For chromium Google publishes a tarball on googleapis.com
> and Gentoo mirrors it.
>
> There has been talk about creating some kind of source repository for
> things like patches/etc, but that isn't going to really change when we
> distribute patches vs upstream tarballs.  Generally speaking upstream
> tarballs are preferred over patches to keep things simple.  With what
> we do now you know you're basically getting chromium as upstream
> distributes it.  If we were to just mirror chrome-25 and 300 binary
> diffs to patch it up to the current version nobody could keep track of
> it all, and while you'd save some space on each upgrade your first
> install might involve downloading 10GB of diffs unless we went even
> further and had a variety of full vs incremental files.  This has been
> discussed in terms of having portage on squashfs and just doing it for
> our own stuff looks to be fairly painful, let alone doing it for every
> upstream out there.
>
> Rich
>
The big issue I see in doing this would be that if you for example don't
have libreoffice or something then you would need to download the source
and the patches and then crucially keep a copy everywhere so that it can
be patched in the future.   the way it works currently portage fetches
from a suitable mirror everything it needs and then cleans up after
itself, so /usr/portage remains of a certain size.

if we were all to download all sources and then have portage only fetch
diffs then we would all need to have an equivalent of a full slakware
DVD kit on hand which starts getting very unruly very easily - even if
we only wanted a minimal gentoo with iproute2.

to save yourself the downloads you might want to look into setting up
your own PORTAGE_BINHOST that you can redistribute from, but be wary
that different devices may require different compile options, so you can
sacrifice speed for compatibility by using more generic makeoptions

hth

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/07/2014 12:52, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> well chromium was just an example. I just think that when there is a
> version upgrade, a patch should be enough.
> I have read that portage is migrating to git, but I guess I got it
> wrong, because I thought that the source codes will be maintained using
> git too.
> However why not? why not use git for source maintenance too?

The tree will OneDayRealSoonNow(TM)IPromise[1] be hosted in git.

Source tarballs? No. They belong to upstream and gentoo will do as
gentoo always has - follow upstream.

The downsides to running gentoo are

1. Lots of compiling
2. Lots of downloading

There is nothing we can do to reduce these downsides - that is the price
of the amazing flexibility from USE.

If you can't afford the downloads, you must switch to another distro, or
use a proxy. But it's not something Gentoo can solve



[1] Excuse the sarcasm, it's a gentoo in-joke how long this is taking
(or if it will ever be complete at all)



> 
> regards.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
> 
>     On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:38:04 +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> 
>     > I was trying to emerge chromium and I noticed that it should download
>     > about 200 Mb, and no wonder cause it is source files, not binary
>     > executable. However I wanted to know that if a new version of chromium
>     > comes out, an update will download another 200 Mb or just a diff files
>     > to patch the altered files ? (I am a new user and I have not
>     > experienced that situation!)
> 
>     It will download the source for the new version, which is generally a
>     separate tarball, so another 200MB. That's how Gentoo works, with very
>     few exceptions that source is downloaded and compiled.
> 
>     If you want to avoid the large download and lengthy compile time of
>     chromium, use www-client/google-chrome instead, this is the pre-compiled
>     binary from Google.
> 
> 
>     --
>     Neil Bothwick
> 
>     EMail - garbage at the speed of light.
> 
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:25:09 +0100, thegeezer wrote:

> to save yourself the downloads you might want to look into setting up
> your own PORTAGE_BINHOST that you can redistribute from, but be wary
> that different devices may require different compile options, so you can
> sacrifice speed for compatibility by using more generic makeoptions

If you're looking to save on downloads for multiple machines, simply make
$DISTDIR a network share, then only the first machine to emerge the
package has to download the source.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you think that there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody.

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Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

Thanks every one.

I guess I got it know !
And I must say that the way Gentoo is working now, is simple, no doubts.

And I am surprised to hear that Gentoo is so strict to follow upstream.
I guess it makes it the most vanilla flavored, And I really like it !

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Alan McKinnon]

On 29/07/2014 13:45, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> Thanks every one.
> 
> I guess I got it know !
> And I must say that the way Gentoo is working now, is simple, no doubts.
> 
> And I am surprised to hear that Gentoo is so strict to follow upstream.
> I guess it makes it the most vanilla flavored, And I really like it !

It also makes the Gentoo dev's life so much easier.

You do not want to get into maintaining custome patchsets for everything
under the sun the way Ubuntu and RedHat do it

That's a maintenance nightmare and a manpower sink of note :-)




-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Ján Zahornadský]

There used to be this tool, deltup, that was providing binary patches
given what versions you have already downloaded and what you are trying
to download, which sounds like something that would answer your question.

However, the project have somehow become quiet, probably as the
bandwidth and data volumes are no longer such an issue.

On 29/07/14 12:08, behrouz khosravi wrote:
> hello everyone.
> I was trying to emerge chromium and I noticed that it should download
> about 200 Mb, and no wonder cause it is source files, not binary executable.
> However I wanted to know that if a new version of chromium comes out, an
> update will download another 200 Mb or just a diff files to patch the
> altered files ? (I am a new user and I have not experienced that situation!)
> Regards

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

> However, the project have somehow become quiet, probably as the
> bandwidth and data volumes are no longer such an issue.

thanks for your help, however bandwidth is always an issue for me and
it seems that always will be! unfortunately I  am living in Iran,
which means low speed and high price!

[gentoo-user] Re: a question about updating process

[James]

behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi <at> gmail.com> writes:


> I guess I got it know !
> And I must say that the way Gentoo is working now, is simple, no doubts.


If you are really interested in using GIT with gentoo, then read up
on overlays and layman

"layman -L"  shows experimental and code_hacks in progress.

GIT among other code management systems are used. Git is the most
common.


NEVER, use an overlay to replace a gentoo stable package, only to
install something additional or non-critical! (you've been warned!).



> And I am surprised to hear that Gentoo is so strict to follow upstream.
> I guess it makes it the most vanilla flavored, And I really like it !

Are you kidding?  Really?  Who the hell is going to even touch, yet
alone maintain  some of the advanced mathematics libraries we all
enjoy on Gentoo?  Many are difficult as hell to get stable on gentoo
and use in other (science) projects; just as one example. We stand tall,
here at gentoo, because we have the collective wisdom to use the
work provided by the larger community of hackers, coders, students
and yes burnt_out_too_often_abused_admins  who often appear to have bad
attitudes......  (hi Alan!)

Here's but one example, you should take on to manage, upgrade and
enhance in your spare time?

http://www.dune-project.org/


Here is another one (you do like video on your workstation?:
media-video/ffmpeg

Sorry for being blunt, but you just do not realize just how rediculous
this line of reasoning/questioning is?


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 7:12 PM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Sorry for being blunt, but you just do not realize just how rediculous
> this line of reasoning/questioning is?

Well, honestly I don't blame myself! I am new to the Linux (FOSS)
world and I don't know very much about it. After some distro hopping I
decided to switch to gentoo because I learnt that easy necessarily
doesn't mean simple and I liked the way gentoo is making an operating
system.
However I think it takes a long time for me to familiarize myself to
this world, so I guess more of this rediculous statement will be on
the way! And my apologies in advance!

Thanks and have a nice time.

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Stroller]

On Wed, 30 July 2014, at 3:42 pm, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>>  Gentoo … I really like it !
> 
> Are you kidding?  Really?  ... you just do not realize just how rediculous
> this line of reasoning/questioning is?

I think you must have misunderstood.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: a question about updating process

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 31 July 2014 00:03:06 behrouz khosravi wrote:

> I think it takes a long time for me to familiarize myself to
> this world, so I guess more of this rediculous statement will be on
> the way! And my apologies in advance!
> 
> Thanks and have a nice time.

I think James must have been having an off day. There was nothing even 
slightly ridiculous about what you wrote.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: a question about updating process

[behrouz khosravi]

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> I think James must have been having an off day. There was nothing even
> slightly ridiculous about what you wrote.

Thnaks Peter. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] a question about updating process

[Samuli Suominen]

On 29/07/14 14:50, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 29/07/2014 13:45, behrouz khosravi wrote:
>> Thanks every one.
>>
>> I guess I got it know !
>> And I must say that the way Gentoo is working now, is simple, no doubts.
>>
>> And I am surprised to hear that Gentoo is so strict to follow upstream.
>> I guess it makes it the most vanilla flavored, And I really like it !
> It also makes the Gentoo dev's life so much easier.

For sure :)

>
> You do not want to get into maintaining custome patchsets for everything
> under the sun the way Ubuntu and RedHat do it

And as a user, I wouldn't want some distribution maintainer messing with
my packages
in such a fundamental way (specially if there is an active upstream for it)

I'd rather be made aware directly if some packages upstream decides to,
for example,
remove an feature from it, so I can then make informed decision like
switch to
another package