From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7CD015800A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:24:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1154EE0D78; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:24:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2A73E0CE2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 20:24:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2b9cf2b1309so43644171fa.0 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 13:24:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1690835066; x=1691439866; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=y/qpz/ENnj4gvWa0gyjRqLI/AkhTf/+VilZxydtMuT8=; b=HkwKOvQvGu5tYScgsrcSwzwlGn2rJMIHVN4t+uha+8P0jtFIdGt/zHcpLBO53EaCPE nL7rr2FHBlptAqXjz947b/jhOWVjH/n0O0LI4gQQRtcZlJngJ2QPCIphBWrhKBU2muPz tR6BmkkMkA7GoVBMKCBUMgoCv8/AlihU3xHbi1Eqh5fpW9twFoyAZ29ATw9O9LiEUmha auFGErMTG7bR9O3yTNlEegsApMaYvwn7J6T4touTnaICFj6y1ruBUtq2kgVfAqh/XdHG pisbz50yYh5yBHs8J943DhYlW9Yny8DTWZ+jDc9IvnTYf2Z2hqPA60Y+N7O8s3JQRFbN vthA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1690835066; x=1691439866; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=y/qpz/ENnj4gvWa0gyjRqLI/AkhTf/+VilZxydtMuT8=; b=WOEziPtG2iMmy1pBU2FfbpD9IGnQIm4MnOZ1t5P2RR9VlQ4T1rqm09enh+JlWwDdZh v0SvD5W+4N/DQe7+VZJfw3TTcVJ8mcCBwnMy0ZNzcjHxoNPofri2rY+oRP5SQrDkyBAK 8+pj7Wmcr7eQ1wMlqG2J9dQjLbuVJu2aj8g3Lwa9D0tbYFWpG+4UteZC2Vhywh0+RsLl CmM3zwL9M6zSXaBoktEvOGLWvp/jK4eXSRVBakFPKMkNa2K1lAPvrKBgd/q8bS5jiKuZ g+55V+aticIxe6Pq3SFrvXQdTKnM5DdiLDz/JL3Kw/4Mc0dzoodvO6ixTfS5v0OQTbTL wXkA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLbbLm92yCYZZ43aVE7tB3/JcMq9NlgzLlxeOBvWerWu1+S0XTei LgzssxEPksvkWteDEFybOVFpq4VrVJ7Jn5AOtyKz+jDAnIA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlGm3M+UKH+BAdZtauEIjo0Efy+HsoUtYMwaMy/NpF4Z2bIySCIMVi3tx0SsYaJL3CITqxUoQMUzChHpzNO0V40= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a4a2:0:b0:2b6:98c2:6378 with SMTP id g2-20020a2ea4a2000000b002b698c26378mr296144ljm.2.1690835065849; Mon, 31 Jul 2023 13:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2313990.ElGaqSPkdT@wstn> <5ae103ff53770b6d9eff69468422bad306e7f326.camel@connell.tech> <13319002.uLZWGnKmhe@wstn> <66c296da3982620ef69abcd588b8377f8a588450.camel@connell.tech> <9e07b48f50e29a4d260f88297f9f0d386075a97a.camel@connell.tech> <1eb06d73-13d4-4f6e-8de7-791afd547c0b@kusoneko.moe> <398d0098-9f37-41d3-99ac-6350aa4b414d@kusoneko.moe> In-Reply-To: From: David Rosenbaum Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:24:14 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Email clients To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000794a700601ce373f" X-Archives-Salt: 8a987d93-df0e-4de9-81a4-36b8d32de2b6 X-Archives-Hash: 6553484fe1db0c8f9e947bd92bed8834 --000000000000794a700601ce373f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" David On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:22 PM Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2023-07-31, Kusoneko wrote: > > > > Jul 31, 2023 13:52:25 Grant Edwards : > > > >> On 2023-07-31, Kusoneko wrote: > >>> > >>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm "team plaintext" all day every day but I'm not > >>>> going to make my life more difficult on principles. There are hills > >>>> worth dying on but this isn't mine. > >>> > >>> Iirc, you can setup mutt to open html emails either in a web browser > >>> or with something like w3m. > >> > >> Wait -- those are web engines. I thought the argument was that mutt > >> didn't need a web engine. If that was the case, then you would have no > >> need to set up mutt to use them to display HTML email. > > > > Why would you want a mail client to also be a web browser when you > > already have a web browser to do that job? > > I don't want a mail client that's also a web browser. I want a mail > client that renders HTML. That's only a small small of what a web > browser does. Most of what a web browser does these days is provide an > environment in which to run JavaScript. > > > I will never understand the mindset of trying to include web > > browsers into everything. Web browsers are massive pieces of > > software, including one in everything massively increases the > > compile time and resource usage of the software it's added into. > > That's because they do a lot more than just render HTML. > > >>> There's no need for a web engine in a mail client when you have a > >>> perfectly workable web engine in the browser. > >> > >> Composing HTML also e-mails requires a web-engine. Sure, you can do > >> that using emacs, markdown mode, a web browser for previewing, and so > >> on. It's a lot of work. > > > > I don't get the point of composing HTML emails. Let's be honest > > here, unless you're writing emails as part of a company with > > complicated messes of html signatures or marketing emails, the only > > difference between composing a plain text email and a html email for > > most people is unnoticeable. > > I found that not to be the case for the Outlook users to whom I sent > e-mails. I was unable to figure out how to get mutt to generate > plaintext e-mails that were rendered properly by Outlook (e.g. using a > fixed font, honoring newlines and multiple spaces, etc.) in Outlook. > > It's also difficult to get plaintext e-mails to display in a > reasonable way on both a large screen and a small screen > (i.e. phone). I was not happy seeing what my plaintext, 72 column > e-mails looked like on a small phone screen. > > -- > Grant > > > > --000000000000794a700601ce373f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


David

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:22 PM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2023-07-31, Kusoneko <kusoneko@kusoneko.moe= > wrote:
>
> Jul 31, 2023 13:52:25 Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.c= om>:
>
>> On 2023-07-31, Kusoneko <kusoneko@kusoneko.moe> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm "team plaintext"= all day every day but I'm not
>>>> going to make my life more difficult on principles.=C2=A0 = There are hills
>>>> worth dying on but this isn't mine.
>>>
>>> Iirc, you can setup mutt to open html emails either in a web b= rowser
>>> or with something like w3m.
>>
>> Wait -- those are web engines. I thought the argument was that mut= t
>> didn't need a web engine. If that was the case, then you would= have no
>> need to set up mutt to use them to display HTML email.
>
> Why would you want a mail client to also be a web browser when you
> already have a web browser to do that job?

I don't want a mail client that's also a web browser. I want a mail=
client that renders HTML. That's only a small small of what a web
browser does. Most of what a web browser does these days is provide an
environment in which to run JavaScript.

> I will never understand the mindset of trying to include web
> browsers into everything. Web browsers are massive pieces of
> software, including one in everything massively increases the
> compile time and resource usage of the software it's added into.
That's because they do a lot more than just render HTML.

>>> There's no need for a web engine in a mail client when you= have a
>>> perfectly workable web engine in the browser.
>>
>> Composing HTML also e-mails requires a web-engine. Sure, you can d= o
>> that using emacs, markdown mode, a web browser for previewing, and= so
>> on. It's a lot of work.
>
> I don't get the point of composing HTML emails. Let's be hones= t
> here, unless you're writing emails as part of a company with
> complicated messes of html signatures or marketing emails, the only > difference between composing a plain text email and a html email for > most people is unnoticeable.

I found that not to be the case for the Outlook users to whom I sent
e-mails. I was unable to figure out how to get mutt to generate
plaintext e-mails that were rendered properly by Outlook (e.g. using a
fixed font, honoring newlines and multiple spaces, etc.) in Outlook.

It's also difficult to get plaintext e-mails to display in a
reasonable way on both a large screen and a small screen
(i.e. phone). I was not happy seeing what my plaintext, 72 column
e-mails looked like on a small phone screen.

--
Grant



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