From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (woodpecker.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 092A41580E0 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 17:17:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gentoo.org (bobolink.gentoo.org [140.211.166.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: relay-lists.gentoo.org@gentoo.org) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3A8934351A for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 17:17:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bobolink.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54BB11047D; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 17:16:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobolink.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F1B11046F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 17:16:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-53e38838026so676043e87.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 09:16:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1737998175; x=1738602975; darn=lists.gentoo.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e2ol6kYwLh5MCykz3ZeuAkt2bSqn63IOve/JXZRIREM=; b=Ut980YjxYlrtmRKuAJCacrIYBycQik76aOCkvHBEyBMM2gCb1QKm848K2cGwOhvf7N jh021hBX+cg28CQHDAmWhAMuYKqQRSE67E/Rk36+tk962K0LELXrNQnJiB7bG+LZqjnb 6FQoOoLVSF6jTxFjpcbWI4H/0Z6Z/kOHtYBexOhP9S2WsjRgtSLBmWEUmMMcR/3fdkyL yaUkdQXkeGE6TsK0pVdxSPRa6akBQHe3yXQI3n81/wXwZActwHHrQXkujwlPE4g64eP4 vqU2D2/FaVaOWe9NcqQTdbuT6s0SnjYUhzgHSaiUc/VgMQeZYv1HeGQRVxliJxNEpA0T KtaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1737998175; x=1738602975; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e2ol6kYwLh5MCykz3ZeuAkt2bSqn63IOve/JXZRIREM=; b=QHFL9TzmzdaN0+cFve9LHoB2t1IQT5NN1uoS/rnp8Tm9Qm6BI13HN4bseOFYPcCZ1r sshnu607KGcFvzZIwZjJkrRIDnzm12l6TeIFF6kzNppWHuILlvpqAxYqJX0nDqN+79lA FQ5uuMqFJTrgwzkem2W0I8Zv311mdEzS0cKi3yAduUEzdF3fdli+8CTO6/6w64peyX1A QtW2j3fsTBODhUpTKJch/jHWyKBsWjQ+0E2HcetnmwRqA0DbsoCS3vHOsFac+8trh+u8 CiVMmpaer3VFHNv/xJeSnsGPNAE/DEobbly4ogSGTWye3vkJPoNkBRscnNWOq44h5MS/ M1TQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzCgUpQEIIPD3uQiuGwdJ3WY/MHTkEqhTkaAyiFVQ4F4X9tZRAl PDj4XP+CahrwQxf3HtTnpgM8uVZ778I/nn7GCsvxLBJJLlgqPcljVxBDvQPNxpO1kpKKTs0/Do/ XAMSQiKbsqFEXbg02NQ1hycZq0/uCavDY X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsL5GzGor+iLlJB4UPLdsiA5biKckuPEq2Deasyek3zLwJQCK7jou16sEYmMhk fR4SHOOj8SNqu6c6a4li/EqExJGYp4VegOil1bz9xhDdbvsQr3YFNaiAL+WOHGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGvLvHg4YHbdew7HDCWSIyZbuPKILOapZzVgYVyartvrnVJW50/JYBuQy7+Sk2mbmHzGyh2SYX1bVQeJz+xD0w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3c88:b0:53e:3756:80ba with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-543bb383acamr2840413e87.9.1737998174484; Mon, 27 Jan 2025 09:16:14 -0800 (PST) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20250127103640.27896b0d@framework> In-Reply-To: <20250127103640.27896b0d@framework> From: Mark Knecht Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 10:16:03 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZkiHrY3Surg425mfUAH6ilIWftzAAwNIvUUKr3kEQZbox7r71zqC5HcKys Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Properly isolating system Python to nuke PEP 668 from orbit forever? To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf7ee7062cb33bd1" X-Archives-Salt: 18fef528-497b-48c2-bebd-1d20a21f849d X-Archives-Hash: 0b0f1c596235555a02057935a1f7d621 --000000000000cf7ee7062cb33bd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 9:37=E2=80=AFAM Matthew Brooks wrote: > > Hello! > Hi. First, I cannot offer any insight into the PEP668 stuff. For me, it is what it is. > For clarity, I'm *not* looking for a workaround for my particular system. My end goal (and not an easy one, granted) is to hopefully eventually make a proper fix that makes it so no user of any distro ever needs to touch a venv again if they don't want to. > > I'm only a hobbyist programmer, but since nearly every distro under the sun went with the "externally managed environment" thing, it's clearly more an issue of motivation/time rather than raw skill. So I figure maybe my extreme distaste for the current solution might allow me to bash my head against the problem long enough to make some headway. Like you I am a hobbyist programmer and, in a _very_ general way agree with your setup of "so no user of any distro ever needs to touch a venv again if they don't want to". However my experience programming Python always leads me towards the use of off-brand and sometimes poorly maintained Python libraries that don't work in all python releases so I'm forced to use venv, which for me works great. I also use a lot of CUDA stuff within Python and tend, possibly due to my own lack of skills as a hobbyist, or just my general paranoia about having to debug things I don't want to mess with, to do _everything_ personal in a venv. Grant you, I never intend to release a program to the public so to me it's most important to keep it working, and clearly nothing about what you might end up suggesting stops me from doing what you are interested in. I wish you the best in your adventure. Cheers, Mark --000000000000cf7ee7062cb33bd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 9:37=E2=80=AFAM Matthew Br= ooks <matthewfbrooks@posteo= .net> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>

Hi.

First, I cannot offer any insight into the PEP668 stuff. For me, it i= s what it is.

> For clarity, I'm *not* looking for a wor= karound for my particular system. My end goal (and not an easy one, granted= ) is to hopefully eventually make a proper fix that makes it so no user of = any distro ever needs to touch a venv again if they don't want to.
>
> I'm only a hobbyist programmer, but since nea= rly every distro under the sun went with the "externally managed envir= onment" thing, it's clearly more an issue of motivation/time rathe= r than raw skill. So I figure maybe my extreme distaste for the current sol= ution might allow me to bash my head against the problem long enough to mak= e some headway.

Like you I am a hobbyist=C2=A0prog= rammer and, in a _very_ general way agree with your setup of "so no us= er of any distro ever needs to touch a venv again if they don't want to= ". However my experience programming Python always leads me towards th= e use of off-brand and sometimes poorly maintained Python libraries that do= n't work in all python releases so I'm forced to use venv, which fo= r me works great. I also use a lot of CUDA stuff within Python and tend, po= ssibly due to my own lack of skills as a hobbyist, or just my general paran= oia about having to debug things I don't want to mess with, to do _ever= ything_ personal in a venv. Grant you, I never intend to release a program = to the public so to me it's most important to keep it working, and clea= rly nothing about what you might end up suggesting stops me from doing what= you are interested in.

I wish you the=C2=A0best i= n your adventure.

Cheers,
Mark

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