[gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Robin Atwood]

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I have a Thinkpad T410 where, after I installed Gentoo on it, everything "just 
worked (TM)". The sound is via the bog-standard Intel chips on the mobo and 
uses the hda_intel drivers. I didn't use the TP for a long time, just 
periodically updating Gentoo, but when I eventually did try to use it the 
sound was muted. This means I shut down the X server to remove complications 
from the desktop and from the console aplay doesn't produce any sound. 
Everything looks normal, driver modules loaded, alsamixer shows the usual 
output, channels all active. I booted to a windows partition and the sound 
works, so the hardware is OK. The very weird thing is if I put the TP to sleep 
with acpitool and wake it up again, the sound works for about 60 seconds and 
then dies. There is nothing in the message log at all when this happens. I 
upgraded the kernel but that didn't help.

This problem has been dragging on for some years and I am contemplating a 
complete re-install from scratch. But before I do that does anyone have any 
idea what I could try?

TIA
Robin

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
----------------------------------------------------------------------









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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Mick]

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On Saturday 12 Aug 2017 20:49:48 Robin Atwood wrote:
> I have a Thinkpad T410 where, after I installed Gentoo on it, everything
> "just worked (TM)". The sound is via the bog-standard Intel chips on the
> mobo and uses the hda_intel drivers. I didn't use the TP for a long time,
> just periodically updating Gentoo, but when I eventually did try to use it
> the sound was muted. This means I shut down the X server to remove
> complications from the desktop and from the console aplay doesn't produce
> any sound. Everything looks normal, driver modules loaded, alsamixer shows
> the usual output, channels all active. I booted to a windows partition and
> the sound works, so the hardware is OK. The very weird thing is if I put
> the TP to sleep with acpitool and wake it up again, the sound works for
> about 60 seconds and then dies. There is nothing in the message log at all
> when this happens. I upgraded the kernel but that didn't help.
> 
> This problem has been dragging on for some years and I am contemplating a
> complete re-install from scratch. But before I do that does anyone have any
> idea what I could try?
> 
> TIA
> Robin

Which device does alsamixer or pulseaudio show as being active?  I found on 
some PCs that HDMI is now set as the default audio device and I had to change 
the configuration to make analogue sound devices active again.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Robin Atwood]

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On Saturday 12 August 2017, Mick wrote:
> On Saturday 12 Aug 2017 20:49:48 Robin Atwood wrote:
> Which device does alsamixer or pulseaudio show as being active?  I found on
> some PCs that HDMI is now set as the default audio device and I had to
> change the configuration to make analogue sound devices active again.

Mick, thanks for the suggestion but alsamixer still shows: 
Card: HDA Intel MID              │
Chip: Conexant CX20585

and is in fact the only device.

Robin
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
----------------------------------------------------------------------









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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Robin Atwood <robin@binro.org> wrote:
> I have a Thinkpad T410 where, after I installed Gentoo on it, everything
> "just worked (TM)". The sound is via the bog-standard Intel chips on the
> mobo and uses the hda_intel drivers. I didn't use the TP for a long time,
> just periodically updating Gentoo, but when I eventually did try to use it
> the sound was muted. This means I shut down the X server to remove
> complications from the desktop and from the console aplay doesn't produce
> any sound. Everything looks normal, driver modules loaded, alsamixer shows
> the usual output, channels all active. I booted to a windows partition and
> the sound works, so the hardware is OK. The very weird thing is if I put the
> TP to sleep with acpitool and wake it up again, the sound works for about 60
> seconds and then dies. There is nothing in the message log at all when this
> happens. I upgraded the kernel but that didn't help.
>
>
>
> This problem has been dragging on for some years and I am contemplating a
> complete re-install from scratch. But before I do that does anyone have any
> idea what I could try?
>
>
>
> TIA
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> --
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Robin Atwood.
>
>
>
> "Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
>
> Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
>
> from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

What's the output of these command lines?
(1). lspci -vnn | sed '/Audio/,/driver/!d'

(2). grep -Ei '^[^#]*(snd|hda)' linux/.config

(3). rc-update show | grep alsa

(4). grep HDA /var/log/dmesg

(5). Postinst message for alsa-utils:
pkg_postinst() {
if [[ -z ${REPLACING_VERSIONS} ]]; then
elog
elog "To take advantage of the init script, and automate the process of"
elog "saving and restoring sound-card mixer levels you should"
elog "add alsasound to the boot runlevel. You can do this as"
elog "root like so:"
elog "# rc-update add alsasound boot"
ewarn
ewarn "The ALSA core should be built into the kernel or loaded through other"
ewarn "means. There is no longer any modular auto(un)loading in alsa-utils."
fi
}

(6). Also, if you check out the Gentoo wiki article on how to set up ALSA.
See if there's anything you might've overlooked when setting it up:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ALSA

[gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-08-12 17:39, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:

> (5). Postinst message for alsa-utils:
> pkg_postinst() {
> if [[ -z ${REPLACING_VERSIONS} ]]; then
> elog
> elog "To take advantage of the init script, and automate the process of"
> elog "saving and restoring sound-card mixer levels you should"
> elog "add alsasound to the boot runlevel. You can do this as"
> elog "root like so:"
> elog "# rc-update add alsasound boot"
> ewarn
> ewarn "The ALSA core should be built into the kernel or loaded through other"
> ewarn "means. There is no longer any modular auto(un)loading in alsa-utils."

I don't get this last part.

My ALSA is built as modules, including the core (I'm guessing that means
snd.ko, right?).  I don't do anything particular to load them, they're
not listed in /etc/conf.d/modules.  Yet the mixer save and restore via
alsasound works.

Could it be that alsasound itself loads the modules on demand, and the
warning above is misleading?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[Mick]

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On Saturday 12 Aug 2017 09:05:10 Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2017-08-12 17:39, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> > (5). Postinst message for alsa-utils:
> > pkg_postinst() {
> > if [[ -z ${REPLACING_VERSIONS} ]]; then
> > elog
> > elog "To take advantage of the init script, and automate the process of"
> > elog "saving and restoring sound-card mixer levels you should"
> > elog "add alsasound to the boot runlevel. You can do this as"
> > elog "root like so:"
> > elog "# rc-update add alsasound boot"
> > ewarn
> > ewarn "The ALSA core should be built into the kernel or loaded through
> > other" ewarn "means. There is no longer any modular auto(un)loading in
> > alsa-utils."
> I don't get this last part.
> 
> My ALSA is built as modules, including the core (I'm guessing that means
> snd.ko, right?).  I don't do anything particular to load them, they're
> not listed in /etc/conf.d/modules.  Yet the mixer save and restore via
> alsasound works.
> 
> Could it be that alsasound itself loads the modules on demand, and the
> warning above is misleading?

Did you run alsactl init to see if the alsa modules are probed and loaded 
without errors?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[John Covici]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:31:45 -0400,
Mick wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; us-ascii (quoted-printable)>]
> On Saturday 12 Aug 2017 09:05:10 Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > On 2017-08-12 17:39, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> > > (5). Postinst message for alsa-utils:
> > > pkg_postinst() {
> > > if [[ -z ${REPLACING_VERSIONS} ]]; then
> > > elog
> > > elog "To take advantage of the init script, and automate the process of"
> > > elog "saving and restoring sound-card mixer levels you should"
> > > elog "add alsasound to the boot runlevel. You can do this as"
> > > elog "root like so:"
> > > elog "# rc-update add alsasound boot"
> > > ewarn
> > > ewarn "The ALSA core should be built into the kernel or loaded through
> > > other" ewarn "means. There is no longer any modular auto(un)loading in
> > > alsa-utils."
> > I don't get this last part.
> > 
> > My ALSA is built as modules, including the core (I'm guessing that means
> > snd.ko, right?).  I don't do anything particular to load them, they're
> > not listed in /etc/conf.d/modules.  Yet the mixer save and restore via
> > alsasound works.
> > 
> > Could it be that alsasound itself loads the modules on demand, and the
> > warning above is misleading?
> 
> Did you run alsactl init to see if the alsa modules are probed and loaded 
> without errors?


How about checking the various volumes rather than muting maybe some
of them are 0 or rather some negative number or something?  Also, you
might delete the asound.state and let the system start over.  Last
resort, there is an alsa users mailing list.

One other thought, get pulse audio out of the way and see if alsa is
working.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici
         covici@ccs.covici.com

[gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-08-12 13:21, John Covici wrote:

> How about checking the various volumes rather than muting maybe some
> of them are 0 or rather some negative number or something?  Also, you
> might delete the asound.state and let the system start over.  Last
> resort, there is an alsa users mailing list.
> 
> One other thought, get pulse audio out of the way and see if alsa is
> working.

To clarify: it works for me (TM), I don't need a solution.  I am just
curious because I don't heed the warning and it still works.

My volumes are not the defaults, and they do get restored.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:43:24 -0700 Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2017-08-12 13:21, John Covici wrote:
> 
> > How about checking the various volumes rather than muting maybe some
> > of them are 0 or rather some negative number or something?  Also, you
> > might delete the asound.state and let the system start over.  Last
> > resort, there is an alsa users mailing list.
> > 
> > One other thought, get pulse audio out of the way and see if alsa is
> > working.
> 
> To clarify: it works for me (TM), I don't need a solution.  I am just
> curious because I don't heed the warning and it still works.

The warning is about old days when alsa init script loaded required
kernel modules for your audio to work. These days kernel does the
job well and it can autoload modules based on device IDs. So loading
modules by alsa init script is no longer needed in general case and
was removed.

The warning is here is for the people with special setups (e.g. out
of the tree modules) updating from very old systems.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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[gentoo-user] Re: Something started muting the sound

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-08-12 17:31, Mick wrote:

> > My ALSA is built as modules, including the core (I'm guessing that
> > means snd.ko, right?).  I don't do anything particular to load them,
> > they're not listed in /etc/conf.d/modules.  Yet the mixer save and
> > restore via alsasound works.
> > 
> > Could it be that alsasound itself loads the modules on demand, and
> > the warning above is misleading?
> 
> Did you run alsactl init to see if the alsa modules are probed and
> loaded without errors?

They're listed in the output of lsmod, and sound playback works as
expected.  If there was an error neither would be the case, or am I
wrong about this?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Robin Atwood]

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On Saturday 12 August 2017, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Robin Atwood <robin@binro.org> wrote:
> What's the output of these command lines?
> (1). lspci -vnn | sed '/Audio/,/driver/!d'
> 
> (2). grep -Ei '^[^#]*(snd|hda)' linux/.config
> 
> (3). rc-update show | grep alsa
> 
> (4). grep HDA /var/log/dmesg

The output was what you would expect, lots info about HDA drivers and 
hardware:

lspci -vnn | sed '/Audio/,/driver/!d' 
00:1b.0 Audio device [0403]: Intel Corporation 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset 
High Definition Audio [8086:
3b56] (rev 06) 
       Subsystem: Lenovo 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset High Definition Audio 
[17aa:215e] 
       Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 28 
       Memory at f2420000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K] 
       Capabilities: [50] Power Management version 2 
       Capabilities: [60] MSI: Enable+ Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+ 
       Capabilities: [70] Express Root Complex Integrated Endpoint, MSI 00 
       Kernel driver in use: snd_hda_intel 
01:00.1 Audio device [0403]: NVIDIA Corporation High Definition Audio 
Controller [10de:0be3] (rev a1) 
       Subsystem: Lenovo High Definition Audio Controller [17aa:218f] 
       Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 29 
       Memory at cdefc000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K] 
       Capabilities: [60] Power Management version 3 
       Capabilities: [68] MSI: Enable+ Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+ 
       Capabilities: [78] Express Endpoint, MSI 00 
       Kernel driver in use: snd_hda_intel


However, grepping dmesg was interesting:

# grep HDA /var/log/dmesg 
[   10.981754] input: HDA Digital PCBeep as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/hdaudioC0D0/inp
ut9 
[   10.981963] input: HDA Intel MID Mic as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input10 
[   10.982033] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Mic as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input11 
[   10.982102] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Headphone as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input
12 
[   10.982171] input: HDA Intel MID Headphone as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input13

No output about the speakers. On another system (that works) I see:

[   20.712891] input: HDA Intel Rear Mic as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input5 
[   20.712984] input: HDA Intel Front Mic as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input6 
[   20.713097] input: HDA Intel Line as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input7 
[   20.713185] input: HDA Intel Line Out as 
/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input8

I think Line Out is a speaker. So why the difference?

Thanks
Robin
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
----------------------------------------------------------------------









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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Mick]

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On Sunday 13 Aug 2017 20:27:12 Robin Atwood wrote:
> On Saturday 12 August 2017, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Robin Atwood <robin@binro.org> wrote:
> > What's the output of these command lines?
> > (1). lspci -vnn | sed '/Audio/,/driver/!d'
> > 
> > (2). grep -Ei '^[^#]*(snd|hda)' linux/.config
> > 
> > (3). rc-update show | grep alsa
> > 
> > (4). grep HDA /var/log/dmesg
> 
> The output was what you would expect, lots info about HDA drivers and
> hardware:
> 
> lspci -vnn | sed '/Audio/,/driver/!d'
> 00:1b.0 Audio device [0403]: Intel Corporation 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset
> High Definition Audio [8086:
> 3b56] (rev 06)
>        Subsystem: Lenovo 5 Series/3400 Series Chipset High Definition Audio
> [17aa:215e]
>        Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 28
>        Memory at f2420000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K]
>        Capabilities: [50] Power Management version 2
>        Capabilities: [60] MSI: Enable+ Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
>        Capabilities: [70] Express Root Complex Integrated Endpoint, MSI 00
>        Kernel driver in use: snd_hda_intel
> 01:00.1 Audio device [0403]: NVIDIA Corporation High Definition Audio
> Controller [10de:0be3] (rev a1)
>        Subsystem: Lenovo High Definition Audio Controller [17aa:218f]
>        Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 29
>        Memory at cdefc000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K]
>        Capabilities: [60] Power Management version 3
>        Capabilities: [68] MSI: Enable+ Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
>        Capabilities: [78] Express Endpoint, MSI 00
>        Kernel driver in use: snd_hda_intel
> 
> 
> However, grepping dmesg was interesting:
> 
> # grep HDA /var/log/dmesg
> [   10.981754] input: HDA Digital PCBeep as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/hdaudioC0D0/inp
> ut9
> [   10.981963] input: HDA Intel MID Mic as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input10
> [   10.982033] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Mic as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input11
> [   10.982102] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Headphone as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input
> 12
> [   10.982171] input: HDA Intel MID Headphone as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input13

The above shows you have your laptop docked.  When docked the on board 
speakers are usually disconnected.


> No output about the speakers. On another system (that works) I see:
> 
> [   20.712891] input: HDA Intel Rear Mic as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input5
> [   20.712984] input: HDA Intel Front Mic as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input6
> [   20.713097] input: HDA Intel Line as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input7
> [   20.713185] input: HDA Intel Line Out as
> /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input8
> 
> I think Line Out is a speaker. So why the difference?
> 
> Thanks
> Robin

It's been a very long time since I docked a laptop and my memory is not very 
reliable, but I recall fixing a similar problem by selecting a different 
output device.  I don't know if you can do this from alsamixer, but you should 
be able to do it from pulseaudio, or from whatever GUI your desktop provides 
for managing audio devices.  Switch over from headphones/docking station to 
speakers and you should be OK.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Robin Atwood]

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On Monday 14 August 2017, Mick wrote:
> On Sunday 13 Aug 2017 20:27:12 Robin Atwood wrote:
> > On Saturday 12 August 2017, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> > However, grepping dmesg was interesting:
> > 
> > # grep HDA /var/log/dmesg
> > [   10.981754] input: HDA Digital PCBeep as
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/hdaudioC0D0/inp
> > ut9
> > [   10.981963] input: HDA Intel MID Mic as
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input10
> > [   10.982033] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Mic as
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input11
> > [   10.982102] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Headphone as
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input
> > 12
> > [   10.982171] input: HDA Intel MID Headphone as
> > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input13
> 
> The above shows you have your laptop docked.  When docked the on board
> speakers are usually disconnected.
> 
> It's been a very long time since I docked a laptop and my memory is not
> very reliable, but I recall fixing a similar problem by selecting a
> different output device.  I don't know if you can do this from alsamixer,
> but you should be able to do it from pulseaudio, or from whatever GUI your
> desktop provides for managing audio devices.  Switch over from
> headphones/docking station to speakers and you should be OK.

That's very interesting and would explain a lot except that I don't have a 
dock! So does anybody have an idea as to why the TP has decided it's been 
docked when it hasn't? There are not currently any other output devices to 
select (AFAICT).

Thanks
Robin

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
----------------------------------------------------------------------









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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Mick]

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On Monday 14 Aug 2017 19:31:48 Robin Atwood wrote:
> On Monday 14 August 2017, Mick wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 Aug 2017 20:27:12 Robin Atwood wrote:
> > > On Saturday 12 August 2017, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> > > However, grepping dmesg was interesting:
> > > 
> > > # grep HDA /var/log/dmesg
> > > [   10.981754] input: HDA Digital PCBeep as
> > > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/hdaudioC0D0/inp
> > > ut9
> > > [   10.981963] input: HDA Intel MID Mic as
> > > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input10
> > > [   10.982033] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Mic as
> > > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input11
> > > [   10.982102] input: HDA Intel MID Dock Headphone as
> > > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input
> > > 12
> > > [   10.982171] input: HDA Intel MID Headphone as
> > > /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/sound/card0/input13
> > 
> > The above shows you have your laptop docked.  When docked the on board
> > speakers are usually disconnected.
> > 
> > It's been a very long time since I docked a laptop and my memory is not
> > very reliable, but I recall fixing a similar problem by selecting a
> > different output device.  I don't know if you can do this from alsamixer,
> > but you should be able to do it from pulseaudio, or from whatever GUI your
> > desktop provides for managing audio devices.  Switch over from
> > headphones/docking station to speakers and you should be OK.
> 
> That's very interesting and would explain a lot except that I don't have a
> dock! So does anybody have an idea as to why the TP has decided it's been
> docked when it hasn't? There are not currently any other output devices to
> select (AFAICT).
> 
> Thanks
> Robin

It could be a hardware problem.  Check the docking port has not been unlocked 
accidentally for some reason, no debris is shorting its connectors and that 
the BIOS menu does not report it being docked.  I think the audio output 
device symptom is controlled by ACPI, but before blaming bugs in ACPI I'd 
start by looking at the hardware in the first instance.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Something started muting the sound

[Robin Atwood]

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On Monday 14 August 2017, Mick wrote:
> On Monday 14 Aug 2017 19:31:48 Robin Atwood wrote:
> > That's very interesting and would explain a lot except that I don't have
> > a dock! So does anybody have an idea as to why the TP has decided it's
> > been docked when it hasn't? There are not currently any other output
> > devices to select (AFAICT).
> 
> It could be a hardware problem.  Check the docking port has not been
> unlocked accidentally for some reason, no debris is shorting its
> connectors and that the BIOS menu does not report it being docked.  I
> think the audio output device symptom is controlled by ACPI, but before
> blaming bugs in ACPI I'd start by looking at the hardware in the first
> instance.

The docking slot is clear, there is nothing in the BIOS about docking and 
acpitool doesn't report anything about the docking state. The Dock option is 
on in the ACPI section of the kernel config.

Robin

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
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