[gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.

I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
their alternative kernels.

Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Kapshuk
<alexander.kapshuk@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>
> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
> their alternative kernels.

I've been using vanilla-sources since September 2009, in all my
machines. I use systemd, so having the latest kernel version doesn't
hurt; a new vanilla-sources version is usually ready a few hours after
Linus releases a new kernel, and gentoo-sources takes at least a few
weeks, sometimes more.

As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
using from the last year or so:

https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst

With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
procedure, I just do:

eselect kernel set <new-version>
kerninst

And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Alexander Kapshuk
> <alexander.kapshuk@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>
>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>> their alternative kernels.
>
> I've been using vanilla-sources since September 2009, in all my
> machines. I use systemd, so having the latest kernel version doesn't
> hurt; a new vanilla-sources version is usually ready a few hours after
> Linus releases a new kernel, and gentoo-sources takes at least a few
> weeks, sometimes more.
>
> As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
> using from the last year or so:
>
> https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst
>
> With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
> procedure, I just do:
>
> eselect kernel set <new-version>
> kerninst
>
> And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.
>
> Regards.
> --
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>

Understood. Thanks for sharing your kernel maintenance experiences.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Giuseppe Pappalardo
<me@giuseppepappalardo.eu> wrote:
> On 10/26/2014 08:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>>
>> As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
>> using from the last year or so:
>>
>> https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst
>>
>> With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
>> procedure, I just do:
>>
>> eselect kernel set <new-version>
>> kerninst
>>
>> And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
> How does this differs from just enabling the "symlink" USE flag in
> vanilla-sources?

AFAIU, the symlink USE flag just updates the /usr/src/linux link
automatically at install time (although I have never used it).

kerninst configures (using a user-provided .config file), compiles,
and installs the kernel in the correct location (/boot if using GRUB2,
a more complex location if using Gummiboot), and then it updates the
configuration of the boot manager (either GRUB2 or Gummiboot).

If you set the symlink USE flag, then using kerninst is even easier,
since you don't neet to eselect the new kernel.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Giuseppe Pappalardo
> <me@giuseppepappalardo.eu> wrote:
>> On 10/26/2014 08:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
>>> using from the last year or so:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst
>>>
>>> With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
>>> procedure, I just do:
>>>
>>> eselect kernel set <new-version>
>>> kerninst
>>>
>>> And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>> How does this differs from just enabling the "symlink" USE flag in
>> vanilla-sources?
>
> AFAIU, the symlink USE flag just updates the /usr/src/linux link
> automatically at install time (although I have never used it).
>
> kerninst configures (using a user-provided .config file), compiles,
> and installs the kernel in the correct location (/boot if using GRUB2,
> a more complex location if using Gummiboot), and then it updates the
> configuration of the boot manager (either GRUB2 or Gummiboot).

Oh, I forgot; it also generates an initramfs for it with dracut. This
is important: kerninst assumes you use an initramfs, and that you use
dracut to create it. Also, it assumes you already configured
dracut.conf.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>
> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
> their alternative kernels.
>
> Thanks.
>
> .
>

I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>
>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>> their alternative kernels.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> .
>>
>
> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>

Understood. Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>
>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>> their alternative kernels.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> .
>>
> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>
What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?

I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
<alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>
>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>
> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>
> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.

I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.

I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
automatized.

And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been using vanilla-sources since September 2009, in all my
> machines. I use systemd, so having the latest kernel version doesn't
> hurt; a new vanilla-sources version is usually ready a few hours after
> Linus releases a new kernel, and gentoo-sources takes at least a few
> weeks, sometimes more.

When was it that you noticed gentoo-sources being that far behind.
Generally-speaking vanilla-sources and gentoo-sources tend to be
updated within a day or two of a new stable kernel release.  Now,
stable keywords on gentoo-sources tends to track longterm kernels, so
that will be behind ~arch by a few weeks.

Maybe if you caught somebody on vacation I could see gentoo-sources
lagging a bit, or if there was some debate over whether to include
some patch in it...

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>
>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>
>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>
>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>
> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>
> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
> automatized.
>
> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>
> Regards.
> --
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>

Do you know if vanilla-sources plays well with openrc, as that is what I use?
Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Giuseppe Pappalardo]

On 10/26/2014 08:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> 
> 
> As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
> using from the last year or so:
> 
> https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst
> 
> With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
> procedure, I just do:
> 
> eselect kernel set <new-version>
> kerninst
> 
> And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.
> 
> Regards.
> 
How does this differs from just enabling the "symlink" USE flag in
vanilla-sources?

-- 
Giuseppe "Pappi" Pappalardo | www.giuseppepappalardo.eu |
www.twitter.com/pappi_

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/10/2014 22:21, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>
>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>
>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>
>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>
>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>> automatized.
>>
>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>
>> Regards.
>> --
>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>
> 
> Do you know if vanilla-sources plays well with openrc, as that is what I use?
> Thanks.


Yes it does. There's no logical reason to think it doesn't.

You do have to set some kernel options, but that is true for just about
everything in the kernel - you won't have support for hardware X unless
you enable hardware X in the kernel config :-)

One of the additions with gentoo-sources is the very first menu item,
all it does is enable a bunch of stuff that supported init systems
(openrc and systemd) use - it's purely a convenience measure and doesn't
change the kernel itself per se. systemd for example will need cgroups
enabled, openrc needs udev-mount. It's all in the ebuild, and portage
throws an error is something required is not set in .config.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've been using vanilla-sources since September 2009, in all my
>> machines. I use systemd, so having the latest kernel version doesn't
>> hurt; a new vanilla-sources version is usually ready a few hours after
>> Linus releases a new kernel, and gentoo-sources takes at least a few
>> weeks, sometimes more.
>
> When was it that you noticed gentoo-sources being that far behind.

As I said, I switched to vanilla-sources more than five years ago; and
I remember that was the case back then.

Certainly I should not have assumed that it was still that way now; I
apologize for that.

> Generally-speaking vanilla-sources and gentoo-sources tend to be
> updated within a day or two of a new stable kernel release.  Now,
> stable keywords on gentoo-sources tends to track longterm kernels, so
> that will be behind ~arch by a few weeks.

I was probably using stable, yes. Afterwards, it was decided that
vanilla-sources would be always be ~arch, so probably I kept the idea
in my mind that gentoo-sources was lagging much more than
vanilla-sources, since with ~arch vanilla-sources is updated almost
immediately.

> Maybe if you caught somebody on vacation I could see gentoo-sources
> lagging a bit, or if there was some debate over whether to include
> some patch in it...

You are right, I apologize for the confussion.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Alexander Kapshuk
<alexander.kapshuk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>
>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>
>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>
>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>
>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>> automatized.
>>
>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>
>> Regards.
>> --
>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>
>
> Do you know if vanilla-sources plays well with openrc, as that is what I use?

Of course it does. As Alan said, there would not be any reason for it not to.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/10/2014 22:21, Alexander Kapshuk wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>>
>>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>>
>>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>>
>>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>>
>>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>>> automatized.
>>>
>>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>> --
>>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>>> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
>>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>>
>>
>> Do you know if vanilla-sources plays well with openrc, as that is what I use?
>> Thanks.
>
>
> Yes it does. There's no logical reason to think it doesn't.
>
> You do have to set some kernel options, but that is true for just about
> everything in the kernel - you won't have support for hardware X unless
> you enable hardware X in the kernel config :-)
>
> One of the additions with gentoo-sources is the very first menu item,
> all it does is enable a bunch of stuff that supported init systems
> (openrc and systemd) use - it's purely a convenience measure and doesn't
> change the kernel itself per se. systemd for example will need cgroups
> enabled, openrc needs udev-mount. It's all in the ebuild, and portage
> throws an error is something required is not set in .config.
>
>
>
> --
> Alan McKinnon
> alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
>
>

Terrific. Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alexander Kapshuk]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:46 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Alexander Kapshuk
> <alexander.kapshuk@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>>
>>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>>
>>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>>
>>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>>
>>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>>> automatized.
>>>
>>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>> --
>>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>>> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
>>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>>
>>
>> Do you know if vanilla-sources plays well with openrc, as that is what I use?
>
> Of course it does. As Alan said, there would not be any reason for it not to.
>
> Regards.
> --
> Canek Peláez Valdés
> Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>

Understood. Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Giuseppe Pappalardo]

On 10/26/2014 08:43 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Giuseppe Pappalardo
>> <me@giuseppepappalardo.eu> wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2014 08:23 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As to how do I maintain them, I wrote a little utility that I've been
>>>> using from the last year or so:
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/canek-pelaez/kerninst
>>>>
>>>> With it, after I install a new kernel using the normal portage
>>>> procedure, I just do:
>>>>
>>>> eselect kernel set <new-version>
>>>> kerninst
>>>>
>>>> And that's it. Be aware that you need to provide your own kernel configuration.
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>>>
>>> How does this differs from just enabling the "symlink" USE flag in
>>> vanilla-sources?
>>
>> AFAIU, the symlink USE flag just updates the /usr/src/linux link
>> automatically at install time (although I have never used it).
>>
>> kerninst configures (using a user-provided .config file), compiles,
>> and installs the kernel in the correct location (/boot if using GRUB2,
>> a more complex location if using Gummiboot), and then it updates the
>> configuration of the boot manager (either GRUB2 or Gummiboot).
> 
> Oh, I forgot; it also generates an initramfs for it with dracut. This
> is important: kerninst assumes you use an initramfs, and that you use
> dracut to create it. Also, it assumes you already configured
> dracut.conf.
> 
> Regards.
> 
Got it. Thanks a lot for your clarification.

-- 
Giuseppe "Pappi" Pappalardo | www.giuseppepappalardo.eu |
www.twitter.com/pappi_

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 26.10.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>
>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>
>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>
>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>
> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
> automatized.
>
> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>
> Regards.

and without systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds too.

Keep your stupid propaganda to yourself. Thank you.

As long as most time of a boot is spend by the bios, it really does not
matter if the init system needs 1.5 seconds until X starts or 2.5 seconds.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On 10/26/2014 04:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>
>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>
>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>
>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.

I was mostly asking Volker since he has vanilla-sources unmasked without
specifying a version but is currently running the 3.12.23 kernel. Little
crazy imnho, but whatever.

> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
> automatized.

Wow, daredevil right here ;). I usually wait until the current release
gets to the 3rd or 4th revision before updating to make sure all the
bugs are out. Had a few times where my laptop was not a fan of new
kernels - 3.16.1 wouldn't boot, for example.

> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)

Must be nice; my laptop is so old that it boots slowly regardless of my
choice of init system.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 26.10.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>
>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>
>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>
>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>> automatized.
>>
>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>
>> Regards.
>
> and without systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds too.

Yeah Volker, whatever you say. You always make me laugh.

> Keep your stupid propaganda to yourself. Thank you.

You are free to stop reading me if you want. Me? I want to keep
reading you, you are hilarious, specially how do you think I will do
anything  you'll say. Funny, funny guy. Keep it up.

> As long as most time of a boot is spend by the bios, it really does not
> matter if the init system needs 1.5 seconds until X starts or 2.5 seconds.

Actually, with UEFI fastboot and Gummiboot, the kernel starts to boot
in just a couple of seconds. But, as with many other things you say,
is obvious you don't know what you are talking about, so believe
whatever you want.

I'll just keep laughing at you.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
<alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/26/2014 04:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>
>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>
>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>
> I was mostly asking Volker since he has vanilla-sources unmasked without
> specifying a version but is currently running the 3.12.23 kernel. Little
> crazy imnho, but whatever.
>
>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>> automatized.
>
> Wow, daredevil right here ;).

I don't think so: I haven't had a single failure with new kernels
since the early days of 3.x. That's including server, desktop, laptop
and media center.

> I usually wait until the current release
> gets to the 3rd or 4th revision before updating to make sure all the
> bugs are out.

If I understand correctly, that was the smart thing to do in the awful
old days, when we had the even middle numbers for stable releases and
the odd ones for unstable. However, in the new (and IMO, better)
rolling releases, the bugs are ironed out in the RC series.

Specially with relatively new hardware, going with the latest relese
is usually always a good call, IMO.

> Had a few times where my laptop was not a fan of new
> kernels - 3.16.1 wouldn't boot, for example.

That sounds like a bug. Also, sometimes some kernel options change
name or location, and your old configuration file should be updated.
I'm not saying that's what happened, but it could be.

>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>
> Must be nice; my laptop is so old that it boots slowly regardless of my
> choice of init system.

You should try getting it an SSD. It brings back old laptops from the
grave: most desktop software has been I/O bound for some time, and
with a fast SSD, even an old laptop can become usuable again.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Keep your stupid propaganda to yourself. Thank you.
>

Oh, wonderful, we haven't had a systemd flamewar in a whole week.

Please respect the code of conduct.  That goes for everybody.

While not contrary to the code of conduct, I'd personally appreciate
it if everybody didn't decide to turn this into an opportunity to
re-hash all the pros and cons of the various init implementations.
I'm sure those interested in them won't have to look far back in the
archives to find a few hundred posts.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/10/2014 23:23, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> Must be nice; my laptop is so old that it boots slowly regardless of my
>> > choice of init system.
> You should try getting it an SSD. It brings back old laptops from the
> grave: most desktop software has been I/O bound for some time, and
> with a fast SSD, even an old laptop can become usuable again.


+1

It used to be that more RAM was the easiest way to get performance gains
out of not-so-bleeding-edge anymore hardware.

Nowadays, most machine tend to have enough RAM (unless the owner made a
silly decision at purchase time), but an SSD is an instant, gigantic
performance upgrade.

This here laptop for instance - once the bios screen gets out of the way
it's 8 seconds to a dm login screen, all due to the SSD. Firefox takes
much longer than that to re-open all the tabs from last session, not
much I can do about that sadly. This damn thing is so fast I tend forget
just how fast it is, and remember when dealing with issues on my user's
Ubuntu workstations :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 26.10.2014 um 22:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am 26.10.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>>
>>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>>
>>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>>
>>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>>> automatized.
>>>
>>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>>
>>> Regards.
>> and without systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds too.
> Yeah Volker, whatever you say. You always make me laugh.

Too bad, laughing seems to impair the rest of your higher functions.
>
>> Keep your stupid propaganda to yourself. Thank you.
> You are free to stop reading me if you want. Me? I want to keep
> reading you, you are hilarious, specially how do you think I will do
> anything  you'll say. Funny, funny guy. Keep it up.
you are free to stop posting systemd propaganda wherever you go.

>> As long as most time of a boot is spend by the bios, it really does not
>> matter if the init system needs 1.5 seconds until X starts or 2.5 seconds.
> Actually, with UEFI fastboot and Gummiboot, the kernel starts to boot
> in just a couple of seconds. But, as with many other things you say,
> is obvious you don't know what you are talking about, so believe
> whatever you want.
>
> I'll just keep laughing at you.
>
> Regards.

this was a nice thread, but you had to post some systemd propaganda. If
you insist on acting like a spoilt little brat, I treat you like one.

I have an UEFI system and my nice little asus board takes longer to go
to grub, than it takes the kernel to go to init, and circa as long as
init needs to go to kdm. So.. whatever you post, I regard as worthless
blubbering of a systemd fanboi who can't hold back and has to infest
every place he goes.

If you would at least posting something useful. Nope. You don't.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 26.10.2014 um 22:10 schrieb Alec Ten Harmsel:
> On 10/26/2014 04:16 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.

I went to 3.16.6 instead.

>>>>
>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>
>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
> I was mostly asking Volker since he has vanilla-sources unmasked without
> specifying a version but is currently running the 3.12.23 kernel. Little
> crazy imnho, but whatever.

since I don't update that often specifying a certain version is... not
really necessary.

And updating a kernel means a reboot. Since rebooting has a high chance
of something going wrong (too many times I saw a hdd or ssd that worked
fine moments ago die on reboot), and disrupts whatever I am doing (all
those nice konsole tabs) and costs times (s3 to desktop is just so much
faster). I spend a lot of time with a certain kernel.

For depclean - I can't even remember the last time I run it.
> Must be nice; my laptop is so old that it boots slowly regardless of my
> choice of init system.
>
>
as others have written already: ssd.

With a caveat: if an ssd dies, it will die suddenly. Without a warning.
Usually 5 minutes before the start of your weekly or monthly backup run.
And that is first hand experience.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 26.10.2014 um 22:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
>>>> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/26/2014 03:47 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>>>> Am 26.10.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Alexander Kapshuk:
>>>>>>> I've been using gentoo-sources for a while now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember reading on this list about some users using alternative
>>>>>>> kernels on their gentoo systems. My understanding is that amongst some
>>>>>>> of the other alternatives, besides the genkernel, which I'm not
>>>>>>> interested in using, are vanilla-sources available in the portage
>>>>>>> tree, and the sources available on kernel.org.
>>>>>>> I'd appreciate being given some pointers on how the folk here maintain
>>>>>>> their alternative kernels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I let portage update the vanilla-sources and once in a while a build and
>>>>>> install a new kernel. At the moment I am on 3.12.23. Maybe I install
>>>>>> 3.12.30 tonight. If I find a good reason to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What happens when you run `emerge --depclean`?
>>>>>
>>>>> I always un-keyword the exact version of vanilla-sources that I'm
>>>>> running since I update and depclean on a weekly basis. I'm not a huge
>>>>> fan of having a bunch of kernels under /usr/src/linux-* but only having
>>>>> a couple of them compiled, but to each his own I guess.
>>>> I have sys-kernel/vanilla-sources in package.keywords, unversioned. So
>>>> depclean cleans away the older versions, and I keep the latest one.
>>>>
>>>> I'm on 3.17.1 right now, but the moment 3.17.2 comes out I will switch
>>>> to it in all my machines: with kerninst is all of it mostly
>>>> automatized.
>>>>
>>>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>> and without systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds too.
>> Yeah Volker, whatever you say. You always make me laugh.
>
> Too bad, laughing seems to impair the rest of your higher functions.

Really? That's the best you can do?

>>> Keep your stupid propaganda to yourself. Thank you.
>> You are free to stop reading me if you want. Me? I want to keep
>> reading you, you are hilarious, specially how do you think I will do
>> anything  you'll say. Funny, funny guy. Keep it up.
> you are free to stop posting systemd propaganda wherever you go.

It's really funny how you keep thinking that whatever you say matters
to anyone but you. Really funny.

>>> As long as most time of a boot is spend by the bios, it really does not
>>> matter if the init system needs 1.5 seconds until X starts or 2.5 seconds.
>> Actually, with UEFI fastboot and Gummiboot, the kernel starts to boot
>> in just a couple of seconds. But, as with many other things you say,
>> is obvious you don't know what you are talking about, so believe
>> whatever you want.
>>
>> I'll just keep laughing at you.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> this was a nice thread, but you had to post some systemd propaganda. If
> you insist on acting like a spoilt little brat, I treat you like one.

I don't care what do you say, how do you think I'm acting or how do
you "treat" me. As others have said in others threads (with less kind
words), you are kind of a joke for many of us in this list.

At most, I would pity you. But it's more entertaining to just laugh at you.

> I have an UEFI system and my nice little asus board takes longer to go
> to grub, than it takes the kernel to go to init, and circa as long as
> init needs to go to kdm.

Get a better motherboard.

> So.. whatever you post, I regard as worthless
> blubbering of a systemd fanboi who can't hold back and has to infest
> every place he goes.

You are the only one complaining about it my dear. Since a long time,
you are the only one complaining.

> If you would at least posting something useful. Nope. You don't.

First of all, obviously that's not for you to decide. Second, that's
*really* something coming from *you*.

Keep it up, my dear Volker. You are really good for a few laughs.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[wabenbau]

Am Sonntag, 26.10.2014 um 17:41
schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com>:

> I don't care what do you say, how do you think I'm acting or how do
> you "treat" me. As others have said in others threads (with less kind
> words), you are kind of a joke for many of us in this list.

I really like to read Volkers posts, even when I'm short of time.
They always refresh my mind. Maybe he is sometimes a little bit to
offending, but at least he says what he is thinking with succint words
and doesn't beat around the bush. :-)

Regards.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On 10/26/2014 07:41 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> Keep it up, my dear Volker. You are really good for a few laughs. 

No. Neither of you should keep it up.

You made a small comment about systemd being so fast that rebooting
doesn't matter. I tried to downplay that by stating that my laptop is so
old it doesn't matter, trying to steer the discussion away from systemd.
Nonetheless, a systemd flame war was started anyways. I have not been on
this mailing list for long, and I'm far from a long-time user of Gentoo,
but both of you guys need to give it a rest. I'm extremely tired of it.

I'm one of the youngest users on this list; if anyone is flaming, it
should be me - the young still-in-college hotshot who thinks he knows
everything.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[wabenbau]

Am Sonntag, 26.10.2014 um 21:35
schrieb Alec Ten Harmsel <alec@alectenharmsel.com>:

> 
> On 10/26/2014 07:41 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > Keep it up, my dear Volker. You are really good for a few laughs. 
> 
> No. Neither of you should keep it up.
> 
> You made a small comment about systemd being so fast that rebooting
> doesn't matter. I tried to downplay that by stating that my laptop is
> so old it doesn't matter, trying to steer the discussion away from
> systemd. Nonetheless, a systemd flame war was started anyways. I have
> not been on this mailing list for long, and I'm far from a long-time
> user of Gentoo, but both of you guys need to give it a rest. I'm
> extremely tired of it.
> 
> I'm one of the youngest users on this list; if anyone is flaming, it
> should be me - the young still-in-college hotshot who thinks he knows
> everything.
> 
> Alec

+1

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Matti Nykyri]

> On Oct 27, 2014, at 3:54, <wabenbau@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Am Sonntag, 26.10.2014 um 21:35
> schrieb Alec Ten Harmsel <alec@alectenharmsel.com>:
> 
>> 
>>> On 10/26/2014 07:41 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>> Keep it up, my dear Volker. You are really good for a few laughs.
>> 
>> No. Neither of you should keep it up.
>> 
>> You made a small comment about systemd being so fast that rebooting
>> doesn't matter. I tried to downplay that by stating that my laptop is
>> so old it doesn't matter, trying to steer the discussion away from
>> systemd. Nonetheless, a systemd flame war was started anyways. I have
>> not been on this mailing list for long, and I'm far from a long-time
>> user of Gentoo, but both of you guys need to give it a rest. I'm
>> extremely tired of it.
>> 
>> I'm one of the youngest users on this list; if anyone is flaming, it
>> should be me - the young still-in-college hotshot who thinks he knows
>> everything.
>> 
>> Alec
> 
> +1
> 
+1

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[J. Roeleveld]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)

And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about the 
boot-time of systemd?
(See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21 september)

Please make up your mind on this.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:56 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>
> And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about the
> boot-time of systemd?
> (See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21 september)
>
> Please make up your mind on this.
>

This might come as a bit of a shock, but people use Gentoo for
different reasons, run different init systems, different udev
implementations, and so on.  Well, believe it or not, systemd users
are exactly the same way and use different components of systemd for
different reasons.  People also drive different types of cars, for
different reasons.

If you're waiting for everybody who uses systemd to come up with a
single list of arguments to convince you to use systemd, well, then
don't plan on using systemd.  It isn't like the current versions of
all the packages you use today are going to magically stop working.
:)

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 06:31:25 AM Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:56 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> >> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
> > 
> > And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about the
> > boot-time of systemd?
> > (See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21
> > september)
> > 
> > Please make up your mind on this.
> 
> This might come as a bit of a shock, but people use Gentoo for
> different reasons, run different init systems, different udev
> implementations, and so on.  Well, believe it or not, systemd users
> are exactly the same way and use different components of systemd for
> different reasons.  People also drive different types of cars, for
> different reasons.

I agree on this. But in the thread I mentioned, Mark David Dumlao was quite 
aggressive in his wording when the subject was brought up and he claimed 
systemd proponents don't care. Canek is the biggest proponent for systemd on 
this list.

> If you're waiting for everybody who uses systemd to come up with a
> single list of arguments to convince you to use systemd, well, then
> don't plan on using systemd.

I'm not, actually. The only advantage I have heard so far that is of interest 
to me is it's supposedly faster boot-time. The only machine I have that takes 
a long time to boot spends 50% of the time to get to Grub. The rest is then 
used to bring up the host and a variety of VMs. That machine only gets a 
reboot when a new kernel is needed for the host.

> It isn't like the current versions of
> all the packages you use today are going to magically stop working.

As long as this is true, I will be happy.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:30 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 30, 2014 06:31:25 AM Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:56 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
>> > On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> >> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds ;)
>> >
>> > And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about the
>> > boot-time of systemd?
>> > (See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21
>> > september)
>> >
>> > Please make up your mind on this.
>>
>> This might come as a bit of a shock, but people use Gentoo for
>> different reasons, run different init systems, different udev
>> implementations, and so on.  Well, believe it or not, systemd users
>> are exactly the same way and use different components of systemd for
>> different reasons.  People also drive different types of cars, for
>> different reasons.
>
> I agree on this. But in the thread I mentioned, Mark David Dumlao was quite
> aggressive in his wording when the subject was brought up and he claimed
> systemd proponents don't care. Canek is the biggest proponent for systemd on
> this list.

You should have answered then to Mark, not to me, given that I did not
said anything in that sub-thread.

But if it makes you happy, I will try to take notes in the next Big
SystemD Evil Conspiracy Meeting so in the future I do not contradict
any statement from anyone in the Pure Evil Directorate.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[J. Roeleveld]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:37:35 AM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:30 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 30, 2014 06:31:25 AM Rich Freeman wrote:
> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:56 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> >> > On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> >> >> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds
> >> >> ;)
> >> > 
> >> > And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about
> >> > the
> >> > boot-time of systemd?
> >> > (See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21
> >> > september)
> >> > 
> >> > Please make up your mind on this.
> >> 
> >> This might come as a bit of a shock, but people use Gentoo for
> >> different reasons, run different init systems, different udev
> >> implementations, and so on.  Well, believe it or not, systemd users
> >> are exactly the same way and use different components of systemd for
> >> different reasons.  People also drive different types of cars, for
> >> different reasons.
> > 
> > I agree on this. But in the thread I mentioned, Mark David Dumlao was
> > quite
> > aggressive in his wording when the subject was brought up and he claimed
> > systemd proponents don't care. Canek is the biggest proponent for systemd
> > on this list.
> 
> You should have answered then to Mark, not to me, given that I did not
> said anything in that sub-thread.

My apologies.

> But if it makes you happy, I will try to take notes in the next Big
> SystemD Evil Conspiracy Meeting so in the future I do not contradict
> any statement from anyone in the Pure Evil Directorate.

I knew it! There really is one! :)

Thing is, I don't see any benefit, for myself, in systemd.
If people want to use it, fine.
But, if people are trying to force it upon everyone, then I will have a 
problem with it.

Systemd is, in my opinion, suffering from the same feature-creep as Grub2 does.
Grub1 was faster, because it was smaller. But it isn't working propery anymore 
and Grub2 does its job. I just don't see the point in all the multimedia stuff 
that was put into a bootloader.

I just had a look at the use-flags for systemd, similarly to myself wondering 
about multimedia support in grub2, I wonder why there is an HTTP-server 
embedded in journald. I somehow doubt it has any real security on it and I 
have seen programs write usernames and passwords to stdout/syslog when running 
with the default log-levels.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:11 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:37:35 AM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:30 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, October 30, 2014 06:31:25 AM Rich Freeman wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 3:56 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
>> >> > On Sunday, October 26, 2014 02:16:24 PM Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> >> >> And with systemd, rebooting to a new kernel takes just a few seconds
>> >> >> ;)
>> >> >
>> >> > And here I was thinking that the pro-systemd crowd doesn't care about
>> >> > the
>> >> > boot-time of systemd?
>> >> > (See the " [OT} Linus Torvalds on systemd" thread around 18 - 21
>> >> > september)
>> >> >
>> >> > Please make up your mind on this.
>> >>
>> >> This might come as a bit of a shock, but people use Gentoo for
>> >> different reasons, run different init systems, different udev
>> >> implementations, and so on.  Well, believe it or not, systemd users
>> >> are exactly the same way and use different components of systemd for
>> >> different reasons.  People also drive different types of cars, for
>> >> different reasons.
>> >
>> > I agree on this. But in the thread I mentioned, Mark David Dumlao was
>> > quite
>> > aggressive in his wording when the subject was brought up and he claimed
>> > systemd proponents don't care. Canek is the biggest proponent for systemd
>> > on this list.
>>
>> You should have answered then to Mark, not to me, given that I did not
>> said anything in that sub-thread.
>
> My apologies.

No problem.

>> But if it makes you happy, I will try to take notes in the next Big
>> SystemD Evil Conspiracy Meeting so in the future I do not contradict
>> any statement from anyone in the Pure Evil Directorate.
>
> I knew it! There really is one! :)

Of course there is. We have a secret handshake and everything.

> Thing is, I don't see any benefit, for myself, in systemd.
> If people want to use it, fine.
> But, if people are trying to force it upon everyone, then I will have a
> problem with it.

No one is forcing it on anyone, but several developers from different
projects are happily using its (in their view) cool features. If
enough able and willing *developers* don't want to rely on systemd,
they need to provide the same functionality by other means, or ship
versions of the software with less features. But most developers (it
seems) are of the idea "cool, someone else did the work for us".

> Systemd is, in my opinion, suffering from the same feature-creep as Grub2 does.
> Grub1 was faster, because it was smaller. But it isn't working propery anymore
> and Grub2 does its job. I just don't see the point in all the multimedia stuff
> that was put into a bootloader.

I don't mind "feature creep", as long as the *features* are useful and
technically sound. Configuration that is an script generated by
another script? I don't think that's really technically sound. In all
my UEFI machines I'm using Gummiboot[1]; it's really small, really
simple, and works great.

> I just had a look at the use-flags for systemd, similarly to myself wondering
> about multimedia support in grub2, I wonder why there is an HTTP-server
> embedded in journald.

Well, first of all, as you noticed, it has an USE flag, so you can
disable it if you do not want it.

Second of all, it's an (optional) feature that allows you to
synchronize data across a local network; no one in his right mind
would open it up to the whole Internet. From the commit that
introduced the (again, optional) feature [2]:

"""
    journal: add minimal journal gateway daemon based on GNU libmicrohttpd

    This minimal HTTP server can serve journal data via HTTP. Its primary
    purpose is synchronization of journal data across the network. It serves
    journal data in three formats:

           text/plain: the text format known from /var/log/messages
           application/json: the journal entries formatted as JSON
           application/vnd.fdo.journal: the binary export format of the journal

    The HTTP server also serves a small HTML5 app that makes use of the JSON
    serialization to present the journal data to the user.

    Examples:

    This downloads the journal in text format:

     # systemctl start systemd-journal-gatewayd.service
     # wget http://localhost:19531/entries

    Same for JSON:

     # curl -H"Accept: application/json" http://localhost:19531/entries

    Access via web browser:

     $ firefox http://localhost:19531/
"""

> I somehow doubt it has any real security on it and I
> have seen programs write usernames and passwords to stdout/syslog when running
> with the default log-levels.

Again, if you open it to the whole internet, you are either crazy, or
you don't know what you are doing. That's why it's an optional
feature, turned off by default in Gentoo (and every other distro), and
even if you turn it on, you need to start the service manually (as the
example in the commit message says) so you can use the feature.

Since systemd is highly modular, systemd-journal-gatewayd is a
completely different binary, and libmicrohttp never touches at all PID
1. You can think of it as an extra utility that is shipped alongside
systemd, and that you don't even need to build if you don't want to.

Regards.

[1] http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/gummiboot/
[2] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/commit/?id=7b17a7d72f5ba5ad838b19803534c56a46f3bce9
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Gregory Woodbury]

TINC

(There Is No Cabal!)

-- 
G.Wolfe Woodbury
redwolfe@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tanstaafl]

On 10/31/2014 3:11 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> Systemd is, in my opinion, suffering from the same feature-creep as Grub2 does.
> Grub1 was faster, because it was smaller. But it isn't working propery anymore 
> and Grub2 does its job

Eh?? Grub1 doesn't work properly any more?

News to me, and my system that is still using it (properly as far as I
can tell)...

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[J. Roeleveld]

On Friday, October 31, 2014 07:05:58 AM Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 10/31/2014 3:11 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> > Systemd is, in my opinion, suffering from the same feature-creep as Grub2
> > does. Grub1 was faster, because it was smaller. But it isn't working
> > propery anymore and Grub2 does its job
> 
> Eh?? Grub1 doesn't work properly any more?

Please, also for future reference, unless stated otherwise, most people, 
including me, tend to forget to add "for me", "on my system(s)" or similar to 
statements like this.

> News to me, and my system that is still using it (properly as far as I
> can tell)...

I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely caused by 
some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the point in 
spending time on this.
Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
Which is sufficient for me.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:

> I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely caused
> by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
> If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the point in
> spending time on this.
> Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
> Which is sufficient for me.

My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run levels at 
boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last time I 
checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at least in 
some cases the old grub does still have a place.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 31.10.2014 um 17:16 schrieb Peter Humphrey:
> On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:
>
>> I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely caused
>> by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
>> If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the point in
>> spending time on this.
>> Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
>> Which is sufficient for me.
> My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run levels at 
> boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last time I 
> checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at least in 
> some cases the old grub does still have a place.
>
grub2 best feature is the
'run mkconfig after each kernel update or you will boot something old
and outdated'

I really love that. Or its configs. Once grub's configs were nice, clean
and easy. grub2 put away with those shenanigans.

Seriously, I regularly ask myself what brain sickness infected those
poor guys.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run levels at
> boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last time I
> checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at least in
> some cases the old grub does still have a place.

I doubt that grub2-mkconfig can auto-generate configs with
permutations on runlevels, but if you build a manual config for grub2
I can't see why this would not work.  You're just changing your choice
of kernel and kernel parameters.

It certainly does let you pick from multiple kernels.  Grub2-mkconfig
also supports a recovery configuration for each kernel that can have
different options, which might or might not meet your need.  You could
also create your own module for grub2-mkconfig which does whatever you
want.

Or just use manual config files.  I was doing this at first with
grub2.  I ended up ditching it for the generic mkconfig script, since
it plays well with make install on kernels and dracut.  Before I used
to make the config static and just name my kernels k/k1/k2 or some
such, rotating through names as I updated.  That works, but was a
pain.  The biggest issue I ran into with mkconfig so far was that it
doesn't always handle mainline rc kernel sorting - you'll get an rc
kernel sorted above the release version and therefore made the
default.  I did file a bug about that, so hopefully it will get fixed
some day.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1285 bytes --]

On 31 October 2014 16:16:33 WET, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> 
> > I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely
> caused
> > by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
> > If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the
> point in
> > spending time on this.
> > Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
> > Which is sufficient for me.
> 
> My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run
> levels at 
> boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last
> time I 
> checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at
> least in 
> some cases the old grub does still have a place.
> 
> -- 
> Rgds
> Peter

Grub2 can do that in at least three different ways. You can write a complete manual configuration, just like with 0.9,you can put a manual custom configuration in /etc/grub.d or you can put a simple she'll script in that directory that creates menu entries with each set of options for each kernel in /boot. 

None of these options are any more complex than creating a grub 0 configuration by hand. 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1694 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 3:11 AM, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:


> Thing is, I don't see any benefit, for myself, in systemd.
> If people want to use it, fine.
> But, if people are trying to force it upon everyone, then I will have a
> problem with it.

It cuts both ways. Let's assume that you want to use polkit/policykit
where the most recent version depends on logind and has dropped
support for consolekit. You don't want to be forced into using systemd
because of the deprecation of consolekit support but the developers of
polkit don't want to be forced into maintaining support for
consolekit.

It's too bad that the systemd maintainers tied their login and cgroup
managers into their /sbin/init; systemd would've been uncontroversial
if they had.

Ubuntu and Debian use systemd-shim (AFAIR/AFAIUI previously
systemd-services) and cgmanager in order to use a standalone logind
running without systemd as pid 1.


> I just had a look at the use-flags for systemd, similarly to myself wondering
> about multimedia support in grub2, I wonder why there is an HTTP-server
> embedded in journald. I somehow doubt it has any real security on it and I
> have seen programs write usernames and passwords to stdout/syslog when running
> with the default log-levels.

I suspect that grub has multimedia support because there's an option
to emit a beep when grub starts. It's not an option that I've used or
that I'll ever use but someone must want/like it. :)

The systemd line was always that if you wanted to ship your logs off
to another box, use rsyslog. So I've never understood the embedding of
an httpd in systemd. I guess that the httpd server's useful if if you
want a basic send-the-logs-to-another-box-as-is, but that, if you want
to filter or manipulate the journald output, you have to use rsyslog
or syslog-ng.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The systemd line was always that if you wanted to ship your logs off
> to another box, use rsyslog. So I've never understood the embedding of
> an httpd in systemd. I guess that the httpd server's useful if if you
> want a basic send-the-logs-to-another-box-as-is, but that, if you want
> to filter or manipulate the journald output, you have to use rsyslog
> or syslog-ng.
>

If you're going to implement a log manager there is no reason to not
let it export logs to a central manager.

As far as filtering/manipulating logs goes, you can do plenty of that
with journalctl already, and it supports dumping your logs in json so
you can do anything you want with them in another tool.  There aren't
really any such tools around yet, but I'm sure we'll see them come up.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On 10/31/2014 06:30 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The systemd line was always that if you wanted to ship your logs off
>> to another box, use rsyslog. So I've never understood the embedding of
>> an httpd in systemd. I guess that the httpd server's useful if if you
>> want a basic send-the-logs-to-another-box-as-is, but that, if you want
>> to filter or manipulate the journald output, you have to use rsyslog
>> or syslog-ng.
>>
> If you're going to implement a log manager there is no reason to not
> let it export logs to a central manager.
>
> As far as filtering/manipulating logs goes, you can do plenty of that
> with journalctl already, and it supports dumping your logs in json so
> you can do anything you want with them in another tool.  There aren't
> really any such tools around yet, but I'm sure we'll see them come up.

You guys should check out the ELK stack:
http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/

Basically, transform logs to JSON with logstash, throw the JSON into
elastic search, and make plots with Kibana. We use it at work; it's
absolutely fantastic.

You can save Kibana dashboards and have them auto-update every 5 or 10
seconds (plenty of other granularities as well), and have a "real-time"
view of, let's say, job errors or running jobs or utilization.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
<alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>
> You guys should check out the ELK stack:
> http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/
>
> Basically, transform logs to JSON with logstash, throw the JSON into
> elastic search, and make plots with Kibana. We use it at work; it's
> absolutely fantastic.
>

Hmm, as far as I can tell they don't actually have a parser for
journal logs yet.  With systemd the logs are already available in
JSON, though I imagine it would be trivial to transform that to a
different-looking JSON if necessary.

I think it just reflects the fact that everybody is playing catch-up.
Despite originating at Red Hat I suspect that the vast majority of
those running systemd right now are the sorts of folks who don't run
enterprise log monitoring suites.  So, the pressure just isn't there
yet to get all that stuff built.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 31 October 2014 20:26:57 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On 31 October 2014 16:16:33 WET, Peter Humphrey 
<peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely
> > 
> > caused
> > 
> > > by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
> > > If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the
> > 
> > point in
> > 
> > > spending time on this.
> > > Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
> > > Which is sufficient for me.
> > 
> > My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run
> > levels at
> > boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last
> > time I
> > checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at
> > least in
> > some cases the old grub does still have a place.
> 
> Grub2 can do that in at least three different ways. You can write a complete
> manual configuration, just like with 0.9,you can put a manual custom
> configuration in /etc/grub.d or you can put a simple she'll script in that
> directory that creates menu entries with each set of options for each
> kernel in /boot.
> 
> None of these options are any more complex than creating a grub 0
> configuration by hand.

Well, it looks as though grub-2 has grown since I looked into it, but as it's 
going to need a whole new chapter of learning on my part, I think I'll put off 
doing it for a while.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Neil Bothwick]

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On 1 November 2014 11:19:58 WET, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Friday 31 October 2014 20:26:57 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On 31 October 2014 16:16:33 WET, Peter Humphrey 
> <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > > I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more
> likely
> > > 
> > > caused
> > > 
> > > > by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
> > > > If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see
> the
> > > 
> > > point in
> > > 
> > > > spending time on this.
> > > > Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
> > > > Which is sufficient for me.
> > > 
> > > My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run
> > > levels at
> > > boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the
> last
> > > time I
> > > checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at
> > > least in
> > > some cases the old grub does still have a place.
> > 
> > Grub2 can do that in at least three different ways. You can write a
> complete
> > manual configuration, just like with 0.9,you can put a manual custom
> > configuration in /etc/grub.d or you can put a simple she'll script
> in that
> > directory that creates menu entries with each set of options for
> each
> > kernel in /boot.
> > 
> > None of these options are any more complex than creating a grub 0
> > configuration by hand.
> 
> Well, it looks as though grub-2 has grown since I looked into it, but
> as it's 
> going to need a whole new chapter of learning on my part, I think I'll
> put off 
> doing it for a while.
> 
> -- 
> Rgds
> Peter

That makes perfect sense. I still have systems using the old grub. It works so why mess with it? However, I may give gummiboot a whirl, especially as UEFI let's your multiple bootloader. 

One useful feature for me is that grub2 will boot from an ISO image, I always keep  system rescue cd image in /boot. 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On 11/01/2014 05:47 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>> You guys should check out the ELK stack:
>> http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/
>>
>> Basically, transform logs to JSON with logstash, throw the JSON into
>> elastic search, and make plots with Kibana. We use it at work; it's
>> absolutely fantastic.
>>
> Hmm, as far as I can tell they don't actually have a parser for
> journal logs yet.  With systemd the logs are already available in
> JSON, though I imagine it would be trivial to transform that to a
> different-looking JSON if necessary.

I should have been clearer; logstash is for transforming normal text
logs into JSON. With the systemd-journal logs already being JSON, I'm
sure they could be put straight into elastic search.

>
> I think it just reflects the fact that everybody is playing catch-up.
> Despite originating at Red Hat I suspect that the vast majority of
> those running systemd right now are the sorts of folks who don't run
> enterprise log monitoring suites.  So, the pressure just isn't there
> yet to get all that stuff built.

Agreed. RHEL7 is brand new, I'm sure most people are still running RHEL
6.x and don't have systemd quite yet.

That said, I'm sure plenty of shops already have an ELK stack or some
other log aggregation in place and adding journal logs will not be too
difficult.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday 01 November 2014 15:38:43 Neil Bothwick wrote:

> One useful feature for me is that grub2 will boot from an ISO image, I
> always keep  system rescue cd image in /boot.

We all have our own ways of doing things. My equivalent to that is to have a 
small rescue system in its own partition on each box, tailored to its 
companion main system.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Neil Bothwick]

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On 1 November 2014 17:19:18 WET, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Saturday 01 November 2014 15:38:43 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> > One useful feature for me is that grub2 will boot from an ISO image,
> I
> > always keep  system rescue cd image in /boot.
> 
> We all have our own ways of doing things. My equivalent to that is to
> have a 
> small rescue system in its own partition on each box, tailored to its 
> companion main system.
> 
> -- 
> Rgds
> Peter

That's what I used to do until I found grub 2 could boot an ISO. Now I only need to copy one file to /boot to update my rescue setup. 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

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Am 01.11.2014 um 23:28 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> On 1 November 2014 17:19:18 WET, Peter Humphrey
> <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>     On Saturday 01 November 2014 15:38:43 Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>         One useful feature for me is that grub2 will boot from an ISO
>         image, I always keep system rescue cd image in /boot. 
>
>
>     We all have our own ways of doing things. My equivalent to that is to have a 
>     small rescue system in its own partition on each box, tailored to its 
>     companion main system.
>
>
> That's what I used to do until I found grub 2 could boot an ISO. Now I
> only need to copy one file to /boot to update my rescue setup.
> -- 
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 

I have an usb stick for that. Advantage: even if the ssd containing /
and /boot dies, I can get to my data in /home.

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Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Neil Bothwick]

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On 2 November 2014 13:14:56 WET, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 01.11.2014 um 23:28 schrieb Neil Bothwick:
> > On 1 November 2014 17:19:18 WET, Peter Humphrey
> > <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >     On Saturday 01 November 2014 15:38:43 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >
> >         One useful feature for me is that grub2 will boot from an
> ISO
> >         image, I always keep system rescue cd image in /boot. 
> >
> >
> >     We all have our own ways of doing things. My equivalent to that
> is to have a 
> >     small rescue system in its own partition on each box, tailored
> to its 
> >     companion main system.
> >
> >
> > That's what I used to do until I found grub 2 could boot an ISO. Now
> I
> > only need to copy one file to /boot to update my rescue setup.
> > -- 
> > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 
> 
> I have an usb stick for that. Advantage: even if the ssd containing /
> and /boot dies, I can get to my data in /home.

Oh, I have a couple of USB sticks too, but having it in boot means I don't have to look in half a dozen places to find one. The USB sticks are used in real emergencies. 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Friday 31 October 2014 15:09:26 J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>
>> I've got a few systems where grub1 doesn't work. This is more likely caused
>> by some changes in used filesystems instead of any other cause.
>> If I really wanted to, I might get it to work, but I don't see the point in
>> spending time on this.
>> Grub starts the boot process and then, afaik, disappears.
>> Which is sufficient for me.
>
> My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run levels at
> boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last time I
> checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at least in
> some cases the old grub does still have a place.

You can edit "/etc/grub.d/10_linux" to add more than the regular and
the recovery entries.

You can also "chmod -x" the files in "/etc/grub.d/*" and create manual
entries in 40_custom (and keep it executable!).

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:


>> The systemd line was always that if you wanted to ship your logs off
>> to another box, use rsyslog. So I've never understood the embedding of
>> an httpd in systemd. I guess that the httpd server's useful if if you
>> want a basic send-the-logs-to-another-box-as-is, but that, if you want
>> to filter or manipulate the journald output, you have to use rsyslog
>> or syslog-ng.
>
> If you're going to implement a log manager there is no reason to not
> let it export logs to a central manager.

True.

On second thought, I now remember that Lennart said that there was no
intention to use syslog's udptcp output. So he hadn't ruled out http.
And I misrepresented the systemd line.


> As far as filtering/manipulating logs goes, you can do plenty of that
> with journalctl already, and it supports dumping your logs in json so
> you can do anything you want with them in another tool. There aren't
> really any such tools around yet, but I'm sure we'll see them come up.

You can filter/manipulate logs with journalctl - and nicely so - but
you can't combine it with journal-gatewayd; the latter exports all the
logs, as shown in the output of "journalctl". Maybe there'll be one
day a tool to tweak the output of journal-gatewayd...

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 02 November 2014 18:05:29 Tom H wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Peter Humphrey 
> > > My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run 
levels
> > at boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last
> > time I checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at
> > least in some cases the old grub does still have a place.
> 
> You can edit "/etc/grub.d/10_linux" to add more than the regular and
> the recovery entries.
> 
> You can also "chmod -x" the files in "/etc/grub.d/*" and create manual
> entries in 40_custom (and keep it executable!).

Seems like there are more ways to skin the cat than I could shake a stick at 
(apologies for the mixed metaphors).

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
<alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>
> You guys should check out the ELK stack:
> http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/
>
> Basically, transform logs to JSON with logstash, throw the JSON into
> elastic search, and make plots with Kibana. We use it at work; it's
> absolutely fantastic.
>
> You can save Kibana dashboards and have them auto-update every 5 or 10
> seconds (plenty of other granularities as well), and have a "real-time"
> view of, let's say, job errors or running jobs or utilization.

Thanks. I've been looking into using logstash for a $moonlightingjob
but I hadn't heard of the E and K.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Alec Ten Harmsel
> <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:
>>
>> You guys should check out the ELK stack:
>> http://www.elasticsearch.org/overview/
>>
>> Basically, transform logs to JSON with logstash, throw the JSON into
>> elastic search, and make plots with Kibana. We use it at work; it's
>> absolutely fantastic.
>
> Hmm, as far as I can tell they don't actually have a parser for
> journal logs yet.  With systemd the logs are already available in
> JSON, though I imagine it would be trivial to transform that to a
> different-looking JSON if necessary.
>
> I think it just reflects the fact that everybody is playing catch-up.
> Despite originating at Red Hat I suspect that the vast majority of
> those running systemd right now are the sorts of folks who don't run
> enterprise log monitoring suites.  So, the pressure just isn't there
> yet to get all that stuff built.

I suspect that "full" journald adoption and tweaking will come from
small(er), more nimble, less conservative organizations. We'll be
rolling out RHEL7 next year and we'll have "Storage=volatile"; we've
asked former colleagues at other banks and they've said that they're
planning the same.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> That makes perfect sense. I still have systems using the old grub. It works
> so why mess with it? However, I may give gummiboot a whirl, especially as
> UEFI let's your multiple bootloader.

I use gummiboot on my laptop and like it, but it has a downside: your
kernel has to be on a FAT filesystem and you therefore have to account
for that when setting the size of the ESP.

I've been meaning to try refind because it's a also a boot manager but
it can handle non-FAT filesystems.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Tom H]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sunday 02 November 2014 18:05:29 Tom H wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Peter Humphrey
>>>
>>> My grub-0.99 lets me choose from four kernels and two or three run
> levels
>>> at boot time, and grub-2 can't handle this yet, or it couldn't the last
>>> time I checked. I don't suggest that everyone has a similar need, but at
>>> least in some cases the old grub does still have a place.
>>
>> You can edit "/etc/grub.d/10_linux" to add more than the regular and
>> the recovery entries.
>>
>> You can also "chmod -x" the files in "/etc/grub.d/*" and create manual
>> entries in 40_custom (and keep it executable!).
>
> Seems like there are more ways to skin the cat than I could shake a stick at
> (apologies for the mixed metaphors).

:)

Ideally there'd be an option to set "GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_EXTRA1",
"GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_EXTRA2", ... in "/etc/default/grub" to generate
extra entries.

Re: [gentoo-user] alternative kernels

[Neil Bothwick]

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On 3 November 2014 02:09:26 WET, Tom H <tomh0665@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > That makes perfect sense. I still have systems using the old grub.
> It works
> > so why mess with it? However, I may give gummiboot a whirl,
> especially as
> > UEFI let's your multiple bootloader.
> 
> I use gummiboot on my laptop and like it, but it has a downside: your
> kernel has to be on a FAT filesystem and you therefore have to account
> for that when setting the size of the ESP.
> 


That's not a problem for me. I already have a 1G ESP, I  saw no point in having a separate ESP and /boot and /everythingelse so I combined the first two. 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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