From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33441381F3 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 08:53:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 05C01E0C6D; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 08:53:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-we0-f171.google.com (mail-we0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3480E0BB8 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 08:53:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-we0-f171.google.com with SMTP id q55so2861057wes.16 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 01:53:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=CyTOTiu6+/u2RfrNTHzNgcVcMDg36rG4KkGXfAv50NI=; b=GmZDYicPvOTpFsL3kxDHMVmbvbCoaR/0tfx8ofwpDuFz990SLaQbNxj8hkm16S08d3 bJclrE49XC8n6vSd2zONuq+XXges7zpGjOLl06+ln0gLzWVWtp/mG4ZnNeCA9vtTE1CL DZYTdtFGWcLoxeUDjhnaXSME5rgH0suAt2UwVb8ruuUuNhJDElljAEpbZAJhj5scGCcE DEAUFjYV9Gv+16+O/bsmDBI+vsK21QnB3LYcXODs7plN9W5Lo0dcFR+h0sQ76EXLucz+ VhZ+3ZAeOEq2tCRCgYBZZ7Iz9wQUXXqIQ9+i///IGoDmhdWgHkZLbkis0EsUmfDx0hJX Go7Q== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.211.111 with SMTP id nb15mr3983751wic.55.1376815999259; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 01:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.32.66 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2013 01:53:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <521042BB.70601@sporkbox.us> References: <520A5446.1050001@mail.ru> <520DA782.4050803@sporkbox.us> <520F14B2.9080500@sporkbox.us> <20130817083653.GA23823@gentoocompn.netbynet.ru> <87li40jf59.fsf@eder.homelinux.net> <521042BB.70601@sporkbox.us> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 11:53:19 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Optional /usr merge in Gentoo From: Alessio Ababilov To: gentoo-user Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c348548e99d604e434f4f1 X-Archives-Salt: 8f5a5e74-dae7-4868-aa0d-fe7d172824f8 X-Archives-Hash: bd3aac93f303102235727ef418bc8469 --001a11c348548e99d604e434f4f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2013/8/18 Daniel Campbell > On 08/17/2013 02:26 PM, Alon Bar-Lev wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Andreas Eder > wrote: > >> On 17 Aug 2013, the guard wrote: > >> > >>>> But requiring people to have an initramfs to boot a system > >>>> that doesn't legitimately require it is silly. I don't even > >>>> have /usr mounted separately, but there are many, many > >>>> different system configurations out there and Gentoo is famous > >>>> for supporting a wide variety. That variety is stomped on if > >>>> something like a /usr merge is forced. It also makes building > >>>> your default environment more complicated due to generating an > >>>> initramfs. > >>> > >>> Absolutely agreed. > >> > >> Might be a good time to switch to freebsd :-( > > > > I agree. This is the only escape plan against the new wind of > > dictation into monolithic approach that comes from systemd sponsors > > direction. > > > > Let's see how it turns out... if Linux userspace will become like the > > Windows user space, then freebsd suddenly looks very promising > > alternative. > > > > Regards, > > Alon > > > > I've considered this as well. It's simply beyond me why so many people > are willing to drink the kool-aid from a *single upstream* and let them > shape the entire GNU/Linux landscape. It's one thing to support an > *option*, but quite another to *force* users to use this option. Systemd > itself doesn't look to be forced yet, but if the requirements for it are > forced onto users, forcing systemd afterwards would be child's play. I > saw this in action when I used Arch. It started with bash functions in > their init scripts calling some systemd tools. Then the /usr merge. > Eventually systemd itself was pushed. I'm beginning to lose confidence > that Gentoo will avoid the same fate as Arch. Even Debian is falling to > the systemd crowd. If this keeps up, it's only a matter of time before > systemd infects every Linux-based distribution and BSD will be the only > major free OS to avoid it. Red Hat may end up digging its claws into the > kernel itself. What will protect the Linux landscape, if not distros > like Gentoo that supposedly support user choice? Will all users who give > a damn be forced to run LFS or Slackware if they wish to use Linux as > their kernel? Maintain their own portage|pacman|deb repos and keep > systems free of systemd? Where does the madness end? > > systemd is devouring other daemons. udev was the first victim, and now consolekit is dead and replaced with systemd-logind. Who knows what will be the next? Gentoo guys maintain now eudev. Ubuntu (which avoids systemd and uses its own upstart) splits systemd into several parts and happily uses them. The second way seems to be easier for me. BTW, what are you arguments against systemd (except for /usr merge)? Best regards, Alessio Ababilov --001a11c348548e99d604e434f4f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2013/8/18 Daniel Campbell <lists@sporkbox.us>
On 08/17/2013 02:26 PM, Alon Bar-Le= v wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Andreas Eder <andreas_eder@gmx.net> wrote:
>> On 17 Aug 2013, the guard wrote:
>>
>>>> But requiring people to have an initramfs to boot a system=
>>>> that doesn't legitimately require it is silly. I don&#= 39;t even
>>>> have /usr mounted separately, but there are many, many
>>>> different system configurations out there and Gentoo is fa= mous
>>>> for supporting a wide variety. That variety is stomped on = if
>>>> something like a /usr merge is forced. It also makes build= ing
>>>> your default environment more complicated due to generatin= g an
>>>> initramfs.
>>>
>>> Absolutely agreed.
>>
>> Might be a good time to switch to freebsd :-(
>
> I agree. This is the only escape plan against the new wind of
> dictation into monolithic approach that comes from systemd sponsors > direction.
>
> Let's see how it turns out... if Linux userspace will become like = the
> Windows user space, then freebsd suddenly looks very promising
> alternative.
>
> Regards,
> Alon
>

I've considered this as well. It's simply beyond me why= so many people
are willing to drink the kool-aid from a *single upstream* and let them
shape the entire GNU/Linux landscape. It's one thing to support an
*option*, but quite another to *force* users to use this option. Systemd itself doesn't look to be forced yet, but if the requirements for it ar= e
forced onto users, forcing systemd afterwards would be child's play. I<= br> saw this in action when I used Arch. It started with bash functions in
their init scripts calling some systemd tools. Then the /usr merge.
Eventually systemd itself was pushed. I'm beginning to lose confidence<= br> that Gentoo will avoid the same fate as Arch. Even Debian is falling to
the systemd crowd. If this keeps up, it's only a matter of time before<= br> systemd infects every Linux-based distribution and BSD will be the only
major free OS to avoid it. Red Hat may end up digging its claws into the kernel itself. What will protect the Linux landscape, if not distros
like Gentoo that supposedly support user choice? Will all users who give a damn be forced to run LFS or Slackware if they wish to use Linux as
their kernel? Maintain their own portage|pacman|deb repos and keep
systems free of systemd? Where does the madness end?

systemd is devouring other daemons. udev was the first v= ictim, and now consolekit is dead and replaced with systemd-logind. Who kno= ws what will be the next?

Gentoo guys maintain now eudev. Ubuntu (which avoids systemd and uses its o= wn upstart) splits systemd into several parts and happily uses them. The se= cond way seems to be easier for me.

BTW, what are you arguments against systemd (exc= ept for /usr merge)?

Best regards,
Alessio Abab= ilov
--001a11c348548e99d604e434f4f1--