[gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

Hello,

Does one have the experience for the following:

gentoo vs openSUSE

for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
etc..etc...

Best Regards.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Andrew Tchernoivanov]

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Hi!

I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

About DE:
 I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
little changes with networking).

Applications:
 I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
General applications like LibreOffice,
Gimp, browser works fine too.

The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
loads CPU by 90% while searching
for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
useful by using this application.

Hope this helps you.

P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 6:41 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does one have the experience for the following:
>
> gentoo vs openSUSE
>
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
>
> Best Regards.
>
>


-- 
С уважением,
Черноиванов Андрей

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

2011/12/2 Andrew Tchernoivanov:

> Hi!

Hello.

> I use gentoo on my desktop (P4, 2 Gb RAM) and openSuSe on laptop (Lenovo
> x200s). They both work perfectly well, especially when you precisely know
> what you are expecting from OS )) Regarding your questions:

Ok well.

> About DE:
>  I've tried to use Enlightenment with SuSe, and worked very well (only
> little changes with networking).

> Applications:
>  I have texlive, pdftk, sipp and ns-2 working perfectly on both systems.
> General applications like LibreOffice,
> Gimp, browser works fine too.

> The only thin is really annoying in openSuSe is /usr/lib/tracker-* which
> loads CPU by 90% while searching
> for media files, etc.. I recommend to disable it - I haven't found anything
> useful by using this application.

Okay.

> Hope this helps you.

Yeah.

> P.S. Sorry it there were some mistakes - English isn't my native language.

Not a problem, that is also not a native language for me!

Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

Cheers.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Mick]

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On Friday 02 Dec 2011 14:41:29 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Does one have the experience for the following:
> 
> gentoo vs openSUSE
> 
> for ease of use, better navigation, applications working perfectly
> without any crash(es), better up gradations, smooth working,
> etc..etc...
> 
> Best Regards.

If you want *exactly* what OpenSUSE have included in their distro then 
OpenSUSE is for you.  Some applications and the whole system will run slower 
than Gentoo.  Invariably some applications could experience crashes and what 
not - any distro would from time to time have such problems and may not be 
distro specific anyway, but application specific.

If you want to include additional applications or versions of applications 
that OpenSUSE repos do not cater for, then you may run into dependency hell.  
At best, some apps will just not install or work as intended.  At worst you 
could break the underlying distro if you try hard enough and have to 
reinstall.

With Gentoo you have higher flexibility on what you install and portage is 
definitely thousands times better than YaST, in terms of configurabilty.  You 
will still get the odd application that is buggy, but as a rule your system 
will run lighter and faster because each binary is compiled from source with 
the CFALGS and USE flags that you have specified for your system.  On the other 
hand it will take some time and effort to keep your Gentoo up to date.

Another difference between OpenSUSE and Gentoo is that you will not need to 
reinstall Gentoo to get the latest desktop, or init system or what-ever system 
wide upgrade is next.  With OpenSUSE upgrades imply a reinstallation (unless 
YaST got cleverer since the last time I used it).  Invariably you will also 
never need to reinstall Gentoo to fix any breakages - most problems you may 
come across you will learn how to recover from with clever use of portage.

In conclusion:

If you prefer quick installation and easy/quick updates, but with limited 
choice on what gets installed and how it is configured, and the OpenSUSE suite 
of packages will meet your application needs comprehensively, then OpenSUSE is 
a well polished distro that will fit the bill.

If you value higher performance and a much higher degree of configurability, 
then Gentoo will be your choice;  but that comes at the expense of a 
protracted installation process (especially if you have not done this before) 
and some admin time on a regular basis to keep your system and applications up 
to date.

With Gentoo you will be *forced* to learn a lot to install your system and 
keep it running.  With OpenSUSE the learning curve will likely be considerably 
flatter.

It would be advisable to try them both out in LiveCDs (or even install them in 
VMs) to see which you feel more comfortable working with.  For a Gentoo based 
LiveCD you could try Sabayon:  http://www.sabayon.org/ and this may also be 
used for a quick (binary) installation of a Gentoo-like system.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for 
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from 
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is 
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo 
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers. 

"Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux, 
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you 
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the 
impression that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be 
installed by a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I 
used Mandrake for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to 
a point where Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get 
everything working still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.

The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other 
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time 
in to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to 
compile everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my 
Brother.  It is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I 
learn anything about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made 
to teach a lot about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and 
quickly without much fuss.

I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> LinuxIsOne wrote:
>>
>> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
>
> "Better" depends on what you expect.  If you want to learn about Linux,
Gentoo will teach you a lot.  Heck, you will learn a lot by the time you
get it installed and get to your first boot prompt.  I get the impression
that you don't realize how in depth Gentoo is.  Gentoo can be installed by
a Linux newcomer but it will not be a walk in the park.  I used Mandrake
for 6 months or so and it took me about 3 tries to get to a point where
Gentoo would boot up.  It took a while more to get everything working
still.  I had to redo my kernel several times.
>
> The point I am making is, it is not how different Gentoo is from other
distros, it's whether it is something you need and want to put the time in
to learn.  Gentoo doesn't have a GUI installer and you do have to compile
everything you install.  I recently installed Kubuntu for my Brother.  It
is a walk in the park compared to installing Gentoo.  Did I learn anything
about Linux, not hardly.  I don't think Kubuntu is made to teach a lot
about Linux.  It's just made to install easily and quickly without much
fuss.
>
> I do hope you will try Gentoo tho.  It is sort of addicting at times.  lol
>

Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)

But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux
distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to speak,
but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit "what's going
on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes piece of  cake.

The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance,
packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* have
a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are in env.d
and profile.d. And so on.

I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red Hat,
CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for its
logicality.

Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my
specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro
maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros allow
you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?

Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
myself.

Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency hell.
Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro maintainer re:
versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a library that's newer
than the current 'stable' version, I can just keyword the needed version
and compile away.

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> >>
> >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for a
> novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from Windows...that's
> why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the same
> Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.

A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting, because it
only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look into
your settings to correct it? Thanks.
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Experience -- specialist term for tried mistakes of older employees.

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> myself.

This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 8:25 AM, "Frank Steinmetzger" <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 07:53:58AM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 2011 3:06 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > LinuxIsOne wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better
for a
> > novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
Windows...that's
> > why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is easy and nice) but
> > don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo is also using the
same
> > Linux which Ubuntu is using? Cheers.
>
> A small off-topic hint, Pandu: your mailer is breaking the quoting,
because it
> only sets a quote marker to the first line of a paragraph, omitting the
> following lines (See my quote of your message above). Can you please look
into
> your settings to correct it? Thanks.

*sighs*

Blame it on Google...

I'm typing on Android's Gmail client.

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 3, 2011 9:14 AM, "Michael Mol" <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of
the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile
it
> > myself.
>
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.
>

Ha, same with me :-)

But in my case, it's esoteric stuffs like: latest iptables, xtables-addons
(and its ipset modules), fetchmail, postgreSQL, ... and an initramfs-less
system :-)

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Pandu Poluan wrote:
>
>
> Indeed! Especially control freaks like me :-)
>
> But seriously, I personally found Gentoo to be the most logical Linux 
> distro. Yes, the initial barrier (installation) is daunting, so to 
> speak, but after doing it successfully, one can immediately intuit 
> "what's going on". Installing and configuring other packages becomes 
> piece of  cake.
>
> The logical way of Gentoo even extends to its packages. For instance, 
> packages that are meant to be run as services/daemons will *certainly* 
> have a pair of files in conf.d and init.d. Customizable environs are 
> in env.d and profile.d. And so on.
>
> I've used Linux exclusively as servers, and I have dabbled with Red 
> Hat, CentOS, Ubuntu, Debian, and Arch, but Gentoo wins hands down for 
> its logicality.
>
> Not to mention that I can customize my servers exactly to my 
> specifications, instead of having to put up with cruft that the distro 
> maintainer feel as a "must have". Case in point : how many distros 
> allow you to choose which cron daemon you want to use?
>
> Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of 
> the box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project 
> that hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and 
> compile it myself.
>
> Related to that, is the great job Portage did regarding dependency 
> hell. Since I am no longer hostage to the whims of the distro 
> maintainer re: versions of libraries installed, if a program needs a 
> library that's newer than the current 'stable' version, I can just 
> keyword the needed version and compile away.
>
> Rgds,
>


This is true but the OP may not really need this type of control.  Most 
people, newcomers especially, just want something that is easy and sort 
of learn a bit and see if Linux is for them.  Some people just aren't 
wanting to be geeky at all.  They want a OS that will take care of 
everything for them.  In that case, Gentoo is not going to be worth the 
effort.

Me, I have a Desktop with no real special needs.  I just wanted to be 
able to learn about Linux, not have some bunch of junk that I never ever 
intend to use installed and be able to update without standing on my 
head with my small toe up one nostril trying to jump hoops.  Mandrake 
had a horrible update process and I got tired of it quick.  If you could 
insert CD, install and not need to update anything, then you were good 
to go.  If you install and then need to update something, oooops.  Flip 
upside down and assume the position.

Gentoo does have a lot of good points, especially for me.  It is just 
not going to be easy and hand holding at first for a newcomer.  The OP 
will learn a lot and as I pointed out, it can be addicting.  Just turn 
off the quiet output setting and see what Linux is really all about.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 09:09:38PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> > Another plus point is the almost complete devel tools provided out of the
> > box: the gcc suite. Now if I happen across an open source project that
> > hasn't made it yet to the portage tree, I can just download and compile it
> > myself.
> 
> This. Very much this. My dive into Gentoo came as I was fed up with
> Debian and Ubuntu having buggy and/or outdated versions of multimedia
> encoding packages while trying to configure a box specced for live
> transcoding of h.264 to something my PS3 would like.

Though Gentoo was my first distro to begin with, the devel stuff in
Debian/Ubuntu is also a big nuisance for me, because you have to “spam” the
equivalent of your world file with numerous dev packages or libs if you want to
install some application from source (like I once tried with Amarok in Debian
Squeeze).
On the other hand one could of course argue that Gentoo is wasting a lot of
space because it is always installing all dev files, like /usr/include,
/lib/**/*.a and stuff. But that’s something else. :)
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Bosses are like timpani: the more hollow they are, the louder they sound.

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Stroller]

On 2 December 2011, at 17:48, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> ...
> Why I asked to just know if Gentoo is better or openSUSE is better for
> a novice who want to learn Linux, just coming directly from
> Windows...that's why...However, I have liked the Ubuntu (since it is
> easy and nice) but don't know about all Linux in general....is Gentoo
> is also using the same Linux which Ubuntu is using?

IMO you need to try it for yourself. If you have an old PC or a spare hard-drive then it doesn't cost you anything to install a distro and try it for a few days.

IMO the most important thing about a distro is not it's technical pros and cons, but simply how it suits you - how you get along with it.

Having said that, you mention Ubuntu in your comment above. If you haven't used Ubuntu yet, then I suggest it for a few months first. If you have, can you tell us why you're thinking of changing?

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Indi]

On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> >
> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
> 
> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> versions won't)
> 
> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
> 

Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.
Peopple pay such a high price to avoid learning anything...

But I was thinking more about anything x86 or ppc and single core, 
or stuff like intel atom. Anything ARM. Anything pre core2duo from 
intel, for sure, as well as any ppc Mac.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
>> >
>> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
>>
>> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
>> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
>> versions won't)
>>
>> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think about it.
>>
>
> Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.

That's why I gave the description I did. What seems sluggish to you
may not seem sluggish to me. It certainly won't seem sluggish to my
grandmother...

It tunes itself very nicely to the perceptions and needs of the
individual in question.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Mick]

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On Monday 05 Dec 2011 20:20:38 Michael Mol wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 05, 2011 at 06:40:03PM +0100, Michael Mol wrote:
> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> >> >> In fact, I like gentoo and FreeBSD best for low-spoec hardware.
> >> > 
> >> > What does low-spec hardware mean?
> >> 
> >> Whatever the default setup of the latest release of Ubuntu runs
> >> sluggish on. (Or what a previous version of Ubuntu ran on, but current
> >> versions won't)
> >> 
> >> While somewhat flippant, that seems a pretty reasonable way to think
> >> about it.
> > 
> > Seems to me Ubuntu is sluggish no matter what hardware you have.
> 
> That's why I gave the description I did. What seems sluggish to you
> may not seem sluggish to me. It certainly won't seem sluggish to my
> grandmother...
> 
> It tunes itself very nicely to the perceptions and needs of the
> individual in question.

I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM 
even fluxbox was a bit sluggish!  Ha!

I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a 
Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.  
That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> I no longer run Gentoo on my Pentium IBM laptop - let's face it with 72M RAM
> even fluxbox was a bit sluggish!  Ha!

;)-

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

I guess, if Gentoo is required to be learned first and that's why it
is not so popular like Ubuntu and lag far behind than it. When I asked
a stranger do you know about Computers? He says, no but I know what it
is. Then I asked him of Linux, he says, yes I heard of Ubuntu but I
don't know! At least he heard of Ubuntu and Gentoo (when asked about)
he says: Is it a country? /o\

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do however run it on my 1998 vintage Pentium 3 laptop and before that on a
> Pentium 3 Coppermine.  KDE is sluggish and rebuilding KDE takes a day or so.
> That's why I don't run a full KDE ...  ;p  Only some KDE apps on e17.

However, Getoo could be great (I really don't know) but installing
Ubuntu is working like a charm (I still don't know anything in Linux!)
But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
beginners! It is typical then....

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:

> But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> beginners!

Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
"power users" distro.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray
and the blinking red light.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Philip Webb]

111206 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> Then I asked him of ... Gentoo & he says: Is it a country?

No, it's a miniature penguin (smile).

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[ny6p01]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
> 
> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
> > beginners!
> 
> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
> "power users" distro.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray
> and the blinking red light.


And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
accolades for his efforts.

Terry

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Joshua Murphy]

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:04 PM,  <ny6p01@gmail.com> wrote:
> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along. Which
> leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and away the best
> of any distro I have tried. Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of
> accolades for his efforts.
>
> Terry

This doesn't get pointed out enough. I started out on Mandrake myself
and as soon as I ran into a problem, there was such a drastic learning
curve, dealing with RPMs was horrendous at the time, it just wasn't
worth it to me to dig to find what was below the pretty layer when the
pretty layer didn't cut it. Then I used Slackware, which was great for
me, did exactly what I wanted when I asked and absolutely nothing I
didn't ask for... but it wasn't until I jumped into LFS that I really
learned a great deal about *how* Linux actually works. Gentoo is the
only place I've found comparable documentation to LFS, and even when
dealing with other distros I find myself relying on Gentoo and LFS
documentation more *each* than all others combined.

-- 
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy

[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-06, ny6p01@gmail.com <ny6p01@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2011 at 11:15:31AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Dec 2011 05:54:22 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:
>> 
>> > But I don't know why the creators of Gentoo made it so difficult for
>> > beginners!
>> 
>> Because Gentoo is not for beginners, there are already plenty of distros,
>> like Mandriva and Ubuntu, catering for first time users. Gentoo is a
>> "power users" distro.

> And yet the documentation is clear enough for anyone to follow along.
> Which leads me to my next point: the Gentoo documentation is far and
> away the best of any distro I have tried.

Definitely.

The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.

> Whoever writes these docs deserves a heap of accolades for his
> efforts.

The Gentoo docs are indeed brilliant.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Here I am in the
                                  at               POSTERIOR OLFACTORY LOBULE
                              gmail.com            but I don't see CARL SAGAN
                                                   anywhere!!

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Stroller]

On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
> ...
> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.

I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.

I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> ...
>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>
> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>
> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
things.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! All this time I've
                                  at               been VIEWING a RUSSIAN
                              gmail.com            MIDGET SODOMIZE a HOUSECAT!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back.  I asked questions 
about it on here.

One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question 
about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about 
all the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1255 bytes --]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:02 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> ...
> >> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
> >> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
> >
> > I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
> >
> > I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
> > made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.
>

askubuntu.com (a part of the StackExchange network) is a good place to ask
Ubuntu-related questions. Heck, the whole StackExchange sites are
wonderful. I myself frequent StackOverflow (where I answer bash questions),
ServerFault (mostly answering iptables questions), and SuperUser (where I
ask questions). My handle in StackExchange is pepoluan.

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1299 bytes --]

On Dec 7, 2011 11:12 PM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> On 2011-12-07, Stroller<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>>
>>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>>
>>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>>
>> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
>> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
>> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
>> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
>> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
>> things.
>>
>
> I installed Kubuntu for my brother a while back.  I asked questions about
it on here.
>
> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question
about M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all
the people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.
>

I think that's because we're technophiles first, Gentooroid second. :-)

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

Yeah, I agree.

Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then unity,
for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie user.
Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's doing, how
he's system works.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Claudio Roberto França Pereira
<spideybr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
> multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then unity,
> for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie user.
> Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's doing, how
> he's system works.

But at least the user should be know what he is going to do in the
only way possible - CLI!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I have learned about this list, even if you ask a question about
> M$, you get a answer and sometimes more than one.  I think about all the
> people here are geeks, nerds or some such thing.

And what response you got when did you ask in Ubuntu lists?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 AM, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.

> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.

How do you say like this? Can you give me an example please?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[James Broadhead]

On 8 December 2011 06:57, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 AM, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> How do you say like this? Can you give me an example please?
>

The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:

> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(

Really?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[James Broadhead]

On 7 December 2011 15:58, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-07, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 December 2011, at 23:25, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The Ubuntu documentation seems to be mainly user-forum threads full of
>>> wrong answers posted by people who didn't understand the question.
>>
>> I tried Ubuntu, hated this *so* much.
>>
>> I'm sure all the respondents were just trying to be helpful, but they
>> made Ubuntu look like the distro of idiots.
>
> Ubuntu is intended to be usable by people ignorant of how Linux/Unix
> works.  As such, it does tend to get used by people who are ignorant
> of how Linux/Unix works.  Asking such a group for technical help is an
> express-train to frustration -- but there doesn't really seem to be
> anywhere you can ask questions of Ubuntu users who _do_ understand
> things.

This actually expresses it quite well - because they dropped the
barrier to entry, they end up with a much wider audience, but one
which doesn't obsess over learning how their system operates as much
as other distros.

Additionally, Ubuntu suffers from the devs attempts to include the
newest versions of packages as stable before the majority of distros
think that they are ready[1], while trying to maintain wide 'it just
works' compatibility. They also tend towards over-engineering around
problems in linux / apt, rather than solving the root problem, or
relying on their users to adapt or deal with it themselves.[2]
Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
experience[3].

[1] Pulseaudio, KDE4 (others, I'm sure)
[2] The grub2 config process in Ubuntu is torturous, and includes
editing a file in /etc/defaults of all things.
[3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
default.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
> Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
> experience[3].
>
> [3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
> usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
> installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
> default.

I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, but that really didn't start with them.
*Debian* has it in a far worse way. As an example, say you're in my
position and want Squid running as a website accelerator, and you want
SSL support. Squid can do this. Except the binary packages Debian
builds have SSL disabled because of fears of incompatible licenses
between Squid and OpenSSL.


--
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:55:48 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
> <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
> > follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
> > advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
> 
> Really?
> 

Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.

I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.

Like I said, just go there and have a look for yourself.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 01:55:20 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Claudio Roberto França Pereira
> <spideybr@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Going back to Ubuntu bashing, I think that the multiple versions,
> > multiple repositories, multiple software choices (gnome 2, then
> > unity, for example, hal then no hal) get in the way of the newbie
> > user. Gentoo solves that by making the user understand what he's
> > doing, how he's system works.
> 
> But at least the user should be know what he is going to do in the
> only way possible - CLI!
> 

That's not a workable approach in the big wide world out there.

It's simplistic taken to the point of extreme.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[James Broadhead]

On 8 December 2011 14:25, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM, James Broadhead
> <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Especially in the past, they have allowed their political views on
>> Open Source / Free Software to interfere with the best user
>> experience[3].
>>
>> [3] The whole concept of 'restricted extras' is detrimental to distro
>> usability, as is having a separate package-manager-frontend for
>> installing them, as is a separate repository which is disabled by
>> default.
>
> I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, but that really didn't start with them.
> *Debian* has it in a far worse way. As an example, say you're in my
> position and want Squid running as a website accelerator, and you want
> SSL support. Squid can do this. Except the binary packages Debian
> builds have SSL disabled because of fears of incompatible licenses
> between Squid and OpenSSL.

"Especially in the past" _means_ 'back when they were closer to being
Debian'. Things have improved over the years, but it's still difficult
to get a codec-heavy mplayer in Ubuntu without building it manually
for example.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.

> I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
> links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
> what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.

Okay but at least Ubuntu is good for new users and Windows convert and
for those doesn't it give a learning curve in Linux?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[James Broadhead]

On 8 December 2011 15:10, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.
>
>> I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
>> links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
>> what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.
>
> Okay but at least Ubuntu is good for new users and Windows convert and
> for those doesn't it give a learning curve in Linux?

That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
such a benefit then.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:18 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
> passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
> definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
> doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
> sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
> from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
> such a benefit then.

Ok, I agree with you but I have just installed since I had to Linux
experience but everything is working like a charm. I don't know if any
problem would come.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:35 AM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

>> That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
>> passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
>> definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
>> doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
>> sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
>> from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
>> such a benefit then.

> Ok, I agree with you but I have just installed since I had to Linux
> experience but everything is working like a charm. I don't know if any
> problem would come.

I mean i have no Linux experience and everything is working like a
charm in Ubuntu and yes you are correct to say that command line is
hidden which is the real gem in linux. I agree with you in this
regard. But I guess (not sure) if Ubuntu would give me the Linux
learning environment?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:18 AM, James Broadhead
<jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 December 2011 15:10, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.
>>
>>> I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
>>> links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
>>> what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.
>>
>> Okay but at least Ubuntu is good for new users and Windows convert and
>> for those doesn't it give a learning curve in Linux?
>
> That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
> passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
> definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
> doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
> sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
> from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
> such a benefit then.
>

I got started with Linux via Red Hat 5.2. (Pre-Fedora, pre-RHEL days).
I used it for only a few days before switching to Debian. If I hadn't
seen Red Hat's relatively automagic setup of X, and the availability
of all the tools to do things I wanted using a GUI interface, I
probably would have hopped back to Windows 95.

As it was, seeing that GUI and knowing that a familiar interface was
what left me willing to deal with the couple weeks it took me to learn
how to set up XFree86 3.3.6 on Debian.[1] Fortunately, just about
every Linux distro, including Gentoo, has much better resource for
getting a GUI up and running, so a modern newbie experience shouldn't
be nearly so taxing on initial patience.

Sure, being able to learn a system inside and out is a good thing, but
you need to get past that initial hurdle before you're ready to tackle
it, and Ubuntu handles that initial hurdle quite well. Give a user six
months to a year, and they'll grow tired of Ubuntu constantly breaking
their customizations, and they'll probably switch to Debian or Linux
Mint. I've watched that leap several times now. A few of them
eventually leave Debian or Mint for Gentoo. Some land on Fedora or
OpenSuSE, but they're usually heavily working with RHEL or CentOS in
other contexts.

[1] Luckily, I wasn't even an adolescent yet; I don't think I'd have
had the time or patience for that as an adult.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:36 AM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:35 AM, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> That's debatable; it generally means that the amount of time that
>>> passes before they realise that Linux is not Windows is increased. It
>>> definitely gets them booted into a desktop environment quicker, but it
>>> doesn't really save on the learning curve - something will go awry
>>> sooner or later, and the fact that they've had the command-line hidden
>>> from them until that first fateful trip to the forums won't feel like
>>> such a benefit then.
>
>> Ok, I agree with you but I have just installed since I had to Linux
>> experience but everything is working like a charm. I don't know if any
>> problem would come.
>
> I mean i have no Linux experience and everything is working like a
> charm in Ubuntu and yes you are correct to say that command line is
> hidden which is the real gem in linux. I agree with you in this
> regard. But I guess (not sure) if Ubuntu would give me the Linux
> learning environment?

As long as we're talking about *you*, and not about someone you're
setting things up for, here's what I'd suggest:

1) Keep your existing Ubuntu setup operational, at least for a while.
Gentoo isn't something you should dive into unless you have a
fallback, at least until you learn enough to be able to fix the things
you'll encounter.
2) Set up Gentoo as a second machine; it really is a great way to
learn how a lot of the moving parts in Linux work.

Once you've got Gentoo doing everything you want it to do, and you've
burned yourself a couple times, you'll be in a good position to make a
decision for yourself. I've actually bounced back and forth between
Ubuntu and Gentoo twice in the last three or four years, but I think
I'm finally ready to go steady with Gentoo. :)

Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.


-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> As long as we're talking about *you*, and not about someone you're
> setting things up for, here's what I'd suggest:

> 1) Keep your existing Ubuntu setup operational, at least for a while.
> Gentoo isn't something you should dive into unless you have a
> fallback, at least until you learn enough to be able to fix the things
> you'll encounter.
> 2) Set up Gentoo as a second machine; it really is a great way to
> learn how a lot of the moving parts in Linux work.

> Once you've got Gentoo doing everything you want it to do, and you've
> burned yourself a couple times, you'll be in a good position to make a
> decision for yourself. I've actually bounced back and forth between
> Ubuntu and Gentoo twice in the last three or four years, but I think
> I'm finally ready to go steady with Gentoo. :)

> Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
> just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
> with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.

Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
would install in one old machine, I mean I would try to install Gentoo
after going through the docs..(of course, required in Gentoo). But one
more request can you also suggest about openSUSE? Is openSUSE lies in
the middle between Ubuntu and Gentoo?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Lorenzo Bandieri]

2011/12/8 LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't take our word for it, go look for yourself.
>
>> I could give you examples of how that forum works, I could give you
>> links that show what we are saying, but NOTHING can prepare you for
>> what you really find on the Ubuntu user forums.
>
> Okay but at least Ubuntu is good for new users and Windows convert and
> for those doesn't it give a learning curve in Linux?
>

Well, maybe my experience will be useful to you. Ubuntu was my
introduction to linux. First, I'll start by saying that before linux I
didn't know absolutely nothing about computers and the like. I had my
first desktop pc at home (windows xp) when I was 15 or 16 years old.
Before that, only my father owned a pc, for his work, and I was not
allowed to use it. My high school was centered around
humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after
high school, I managed to get into med school. So, no computer
science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about
computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :)
At 19, I was given a laptop, only for me (windows vista, if I remember
correctly). I decided to install linux on it, and I chose Ubuntu
because it was the distro of wich I heard about the most. After some
months, I decided to move away from ubuntu because I felt it was too
limited - I wanted to learn. In the following two years I tried other
distros, but at last I felt that only two were apt to me: Gentoo and
Arch Linux. Of these two, I tend to prefer Gentoo.

What's the point in this story: I started as a computer illiterate. I
think that, had I chosen Gentoo (or Arch, or Slackware) as my first
distro, probably I would have given up with linux. I could never get
started so abruptly with the terminal, CLI etc. I needed a gradual
introduction, to get familiar with filesystems, directory hierarchy,
basilar command line usage etc. Ubuntu, at the time, provided this.
Just remember that *probably* you won't learn much by using Ubuntu. If
you want to learn, when you're ready, you will have to move on. You
learn more after an attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of
plain Ubuntu usage :)

At least, that is my real life experience and my opinion. I'm just one
user; on this ML there are really knowledgeable users, so you should
listen to them[1].

[1] BTW, I just want to say that I really love this ML. Thanks guys.

Hope this helps,

Lorenzo

-- 
Nothing is interesting if you're not interested.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Lorenzo Bandieri
<lorenzo.bandieri@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, maybe my experience will be useful to you. Ubuntu was my
> introduction to linux. First, I'll start by saying that before linux I
> didn't know absolutely nothing about computers and the like. I had my
> first desktop pc at home (windows xp) when I was 15 or 16 years old.
> Before that, only my father owned a pc, for his work, and I was not
> allowed to use it. My high school was centered around
> humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after
> high school, I managed to get into med school. So, no computer
> science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about
> computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :)
> At 19, I was given a laptop, only for me (windows vista, if I remember
> correctly). I decided to install linux on it, and I chose Ubuntu
> because it was the distro of wich I heard about the most. After some
> months, I decided to move away from ubuntu because I felt it was too
> limited - I wanted to learn. In the following two years I tried other
> distros, but at last I felt that only two were apt to me: Gentoo and
> Arch Linux. Of these two, I tend to prefer Gentoo.

That's really nice to know.

> What's the point in this story: I started as a computer illiterate. I
> think that, had I chosen Gentoo (or Arch, or Slackware) as my first
> distro, probably I would have given up with linux. I could never get
> started so abruptly with the terminal, CLI etc. I needed a gradual
> introduction, to get familiar with filesystems, directory hierarchy,
> basilar command line usage etc. Ubuntu, at the time, provided this.
> Just remember that *probably* you won't learn much by using Ubuntu. If
> you want to learn, when you're ready, you will have to move on. You
> learn more after an attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of
> plain Ubuntu usage :)

> At least, that is my real life experience and my opinion. I'm just one
> user; on this ML there are really knowledgeable users, so you should
> listen to them[1].

> [1] BTW, I just want to say that I really love this ML. Thanks guys.

Yeahs thanks and your story really gives nice things to remember. I
would definitely try now Gentoo and since it is an advanced version of
Linux usage, so people here are, of course, having more knowledge and
more mature, including you. When you say 'You learn more after an
attempt to install Gentoo than in one year of plain Ubuntu usage :)',
this line is really good to know. If this is true, I guess after some
initial learning I would step towards Gentoo, I bet. But since Gentoo
was not in top 5 at distrowatch.org so that also (earlier) made me
thought that Ubuntu or openSUSE are more matured Linux distributions
but I forgot that the rating I saw was of popularity and not of more
advanced or the one giving more learning curvature.

Thanks.

[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-08, LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
><jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
>> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
>> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
>
> Really?

Yes, really.  When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
learned to ignore the user forum.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I own seven-eighths of
                                  at               all the artists in downtown
                              gmail.com            Burbank!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2011-12-08, LinuxIsOne<linuxisone@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:58 AM, James Broadhead
>> <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> The next time you have a problem with anything related to linux,
>>> follow a link to an Ubuntu user forum. Unfortunately, the quality of
>>> advice on them tends to be pretty low. :-(
>> Really?
> Yes, really.  When searching for answers to Ubuntu questions, I've
> learned to ignore the user forum.
>

I learned to ask here.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Mick]

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On Thursday 08 Dec 2011 16:11:56 LinuxIsOne wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As long as we're talking about *you*, and not about someone you're
> > setting things up for, here's what I'd suggest:
> > 
> > 1) Keep your existing Ubuntu setup operational, at least for a while.
> > Gentoo isn't something you should dive into unless you have a
> > fallback, at least until you learn enough to be able to fix the things
> > you'll encounter.
> > 2) Set up Gentoo as a second machine; it really is a great way to
> > learn how a lot of the moving parts in Linux work.
> > 
> > Once you've got Gentoo doing everything you want it to do, and you've
> > burned yourself a couple times, you'll be in a good position to make a
> > decision for yourself. I've actually bounced back and forth between
> > Ubuntu and Gentoo twice in the last three or four years, but I think
> > I'm finally ready to go steady with Gentoo. :)
> > 
> > Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
> > just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
> > with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.
> 
> Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
> would install in one old machine, I mean I would try to install Gentoo
> after going through the docs..(of course, required in Gentoo). But one
> more request can you also suggest about openSUSE? Is openSUSE lies in
> the middle between Ubuntu and Gentoo?

OpenSUSE is not that different from Ubuntu, but is a long way from Gentoo.

There is no way to meaningfully compare *Ubuntu and OpenSUSE, because it 
depends what suits your taste and preferences.  You can install both, run them 
for a few weeks and see which you feel more comfortable with.

Last time I installed OpenSUSE (some years ago) I had to reinstall it when 
time came to upgrade to the latest version.  With Ubuntu the upgrade path was 
pretty seamless.  The Ubuntu devs had it all scripted out via the update 
manager.  So, Ubuntu is I think easier to look after and keep upgrading than 
OpenSUSE was back then.  Not sure how things have evolved since then in the 
OpenSUSE world.  CentOS was no better than OpenSUSE in this regard.

So, for a newcomer to Linux I would recommend *Ubuntu.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 08:09:34PM +0000, Mick wrote:

> > > Ubuntu is great for "it just works." Ubuntu isn't so great for "it
> > > just keeps working." Neither is Gentoo, for that matter, but, at least
> > > with Gentoo, you'll know how to fix it.
> > 
> > Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
> > would install in one old machine, I mean I would try to install Gentoo
> > after going through the docs..(of course, required in Gentoo). But one
> > more request can you also suggest about openSUSE? Is openSUSE lies in
> > the middle between Ubuntu and Gentoo?
> 
> OpenSUSE is not that different from Ubuntu, but is a long way from Gentoo.
> 
> There is no way to meaningfully compare *Ubuntu and OpenSUSE, because it 
> depends what suits your taste and preferences.  You can install both, run them 
> for a few weeks and see which you feel more comfortable with.
> 
> Last time I installed OpenSUSE (some years ago) I had to reinstall it when 
> time came to upgrade to the latest version.  With Ubuntu the upgrade path was 
> pretty seamless.  The Ubuntu devs had it all scripted out via the update 
> manager.  So, Ubuntu is I think easier to look after and keep upgrading than 
> OpenSUSE was back then.  Not sure how things have evolved since then in the 
> OpenSUSE world.  CentOS was no better than OpenSUSE in this regard.
> 
> So, for a newcomer to Linux I would recommend *Ubuntu.

I did this in the past. But recently I’m reassessing this, with Ubuntu changing
the default look and the way it works with every other release (remember the
hassle about window buttons to the left by default?). I can’t really explain
-- let alone justify -- to a newbie, who had to adapt from Win to Ubuntu that
he has to do so again, whether he wants to or not. Plus it seems to me they
are trying to become Apple in the Linux world, with own services (and design).
I am totally at a loss with entry-level distros right now. 

I tried Mint, also the new one with Gnome 3. The praised Mint menu seems
overloaded to me (it shows too much at once IMHO). I somehow dislike custom
layers over a standard interface, much like, if I bought an HTC Android, I
would reflash it without Sense UI, but I’m digressing.

OpenSuse seems even more overloaded. Albeit it provides a whole environment,
Yast was full of stuff a simple user will never need. It also caused a very
long and voluminous installation process.
I must add though that I peeked into both Mint and Suse only for a day or so,
without ever using it myself, so I don’t know jack about update procedures.

A friend of mine wanted Linux, so I installed Debian stable for her with KDE
4.4. It’s not bleeding edge, but it works because it doesn’t change much (hence
keeps working) and because she doesn’t do a lot of fancy stuff. (And also
because I used Debian testing for a while, so I know a bit about how to do some
helpdesking).
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

Everything is poisonous -- it just comes down to the dosage.

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

Wait a minute, an actual doctor installed and maintain Gentoo boxes?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 01:02:14AM -0200, Claudio Roberto França Pereira wrote:
> Wait a minute, an actual doctor installed and maintain Gentoo boxes?

??
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
I forbid any use of my email addresses with Facebook services.

A hammer is a wonderful tool,
but it is plain unsuitable for cleaning windows.  (SelfHTML forum)

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Claudio Roberto França Pereira]

>By Lorenzo Badieri:
>[...] My high school was centered around
>humanities/classical studies: ancient greek, latin, philosophy; after
>high school, I managed to get into MED SCHOOL. So, no computer
>science/informatics at all. However, I was really curios about
>computers, and I messed up my family's desktop pc a couple of times :) [...]

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Sebastian Beßler]

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On 08.12.2011 17:11, LinuxIsOne wrote:

> Ah, thanks for the nice suggestions, I would keep a note of it. I
> would install in one old machine, 

You could use virtualbox to create a virtual PC and install Gentoo
there. That would eliminate the required space for a second monitor,
keyboard and mouse.

Virtualbox is mostly self-explaining so that should not be so much of a
problem.

Greetings

Sebastian Beßler


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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

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On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de> wrote:


> I did this in the past. But recently I’m reassessing this, with Ubuntu
> changing
> the default look and the way it works with every other release (remember
> the
> hassle about window buttons to the left by default?). I can’t really
> explain
> -- let alone justify -- to a newbie, who had to adapt from Win to Ubuntu
> that
> he has to do so again, whether he wants to or not. Plus it seems to me they
> are trying to become Apple in the Linux world, with own services (and
> design).
> I am totally at a loss with entry-level distros right now.
>
> I tried Mint, also the new one with Gnome 3. The praised Mint menu seems
> overloaded to me (it shows too much at once IMHO). I somehow dislike custom
> layers over a standard interface, much like, if I bought an HTC Android, I
> would reflash it without Sense UI, but I’m digressing.
>
> OpenSuse seems even more overloaded. Albeit it provides a whole
> environment,
> Yast was full of stuff a simple user will never need. It also caused a very
> long and voluminous installation process.
> I must add though that I peeked into both Mint and Suse only for a day or
> so,
> without ever using it myself, so I don’t know jack about update procedures.
>
> A friend of mine wanted Linux, so I installed Debian stable for her with
> KDE
> 4.4. It’s not bleeding edge, but it works because it doesn’t change much
> (hence
> keeps working) and because she doesn’t do a lot of fancy stuff. (And also
> because I used Debian testing for a while, so I know a bit about how to do
> some
> helpdesking).
>

I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the same way
since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I think.

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:31 AM, Sebastian Beßler
<sebastian@darkmetatron.de> wrote:

> Virtualbox is mostly self-explaining so that should not be so much of a
> problem.

VB works from within another OS or needs memory of HDD?

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>

----- >8 snip

>
> I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the same
way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I think.

I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.

First, there might be differences in how they install a package. There's
RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.

Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users OpenRC,
Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so on.

And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel. With
Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced Gentooroids will
configure and compile their own kernels.

(The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure:
attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at the
right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches like
GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.

> First, there might be differences in how they install a package. There's
> RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.

> Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users OpenRC,
> Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so on.

"init" system? I am first time hearing this, may be, I would read it
later or sometimes about what is it....

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel. With
> Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced Gentooroids will
> configure and compile their own kernels.

> (The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure:
> attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at the
> right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches like
> GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

Oh I see. Thanks for clarification Pandu.

> ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))

Great to hear.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:46:16 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Frank Steinmetzger <Warp_7@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > I did this in the past. But recently I’m reassessing this, with
> > Ubuntu changing
> > the default look and the way it works with every other release
> > (remember the
> > hassle about window buttons to the left by default?). I can’t really
> > explain
> > -- let alone justify -- to a newbie, who had to adapt from Win to
> > Ubuntu that
> > he has to do so again, whether he wants to or not. Plus it seems to
> > me they are trying to become Apple in the Linux world, with own
> > services (and design).
> > I am totally at a loss with entry-level distros right now.
> >
> > I tried Mint, also the new one with Gnome 3. The praised Mint menu
> > seems overloaded to me (it shows too much at once IMHO). I somehow
> > dislike custom layers over a standard interface, much like, if I
> > bought an HTC Android, I would reflash it without Sense UI, but I’m
> > digressing.
> >
> > OpenSuse seems even more overloaded. Albeit it provides a whole
> > environment,
> > Yast was full of stuff a simple user will never need. It also
> > caused a very long and voluminous installation process.
> > I must add though that I peeked into both Mint and Suse only for a
> > day or so,
> > without ever using it myself, so I don’t know jack about update
> > procedures.
> >
> > A friend of mine wanted Linux, so I installed Debian stable for her
> > with KDE
> > 4.4. It’s not bleeding edge, but it works because it doesn’t change
> > much (hence
> > keeps working) and because she doesn’t do a lot of fancy stuff.
> > (And also because I used Debian testing for a while, so I know a
> > bit about how to do some
> > helpdesking).
> >
> 
> I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the
> same way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I
> think.


Not quite.

A very small selection of all possible Unixes work the same.
Ubuntu and Debian are quite similar as they have common roots.
RedHat works rather like an old Fedora (and to some degree that's almost
exactly what it is).
Gentoo looks and feels like whatever you decide to make it to be
(because it is so highly configurable and adaptable)

The fact is that the kernel make very little difference to how the
overall system works. YOU do not interact with the kernel, YOU interact
with a collection of programs called "userland", and these things can
all be very different. For example, I'm looking at three computers
right now that all run Linux, and they are all very very different:

- this laptop, which is set up as a traditional Unix with X,
- my phone running Android 
- my wireless router/modem which runs busybox

Be careful of making rash conclusions about Linux. A Linux system is not
"like" anything particularly, it is whatever the person who built it
decided it should be.

What you will find is that desktop Linuxes share many common elements.
This is not surprising - all versions of Windows share many common
elements too.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:47:47 -0500
LinuxIsOne <linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:31 AM, Sebastian Beßler
> <sebastian@darkmetatron.de> wrote:
> 
> > Virtualbox is mostly self-explaining so that should not be so much
> > of a problem.
> 
> VB works from within another OS or needs memory of HDD?
> 

VirtualBox is a program that runs on a working system with a
functioning OS. Like all programs it needs resources like memory and
hard disk space. Unlike most programs it usually uses a LOT of memory
and hard disk space to be useful.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Grant Edwards]

On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.

RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.

> With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
> Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.

I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
version of a kernel.

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 11, 2011 12:02 AM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>
> > And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
> > introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.
>
> RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
> drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
> are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
> them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
> RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
> close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.
>
> > With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
> > Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
>
> I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
> version of a kernel.
>

Ah, I see that I might have misconstrued myself. My bad.

Regarding drivers: usually they're no big deal, since the 'infrastructure'
portions of the kernel (e.g., SCSI disk support) are most likely have been
enabled.

For most applications, usually they don't really care what's in the kernel
since they operate at a quite high-level.

Problems might arise though if you're doing exotic things. For example: If
I built the IPset portion as 'built-in' into the kernel, I won't be able to
install xtables-addons. This is due to the package wanting to install its
own set of IPset modules.

Fortunately, such cases are few and far between in the Gentooverse. People
doing exotic things are naturally expected to Know What They Are Doing™ :-)

Rgds,

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2011 12:02 AM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-12-10, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>>
>> > And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many distros
>> > introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla kernel.
>>
>> RedHat is particularly bad about this.  I maintain a couple Linux
>> drivers that have to work with a wide range of kernel versions.  There
>> are lot's of #ifdef's that depend on not only the kernel and some of
>> them also have to check whether it's a _RedHat_ kernel or not, since
>> RedHat is fond of shipping a kernel with version X.Y.Z that isn't even
>> close to compatible with the driver API for vanilla kernel X.Y.Z.
>>
>> > With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
>> > Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
>>
>> I've never had to add special code to a driver to handle the Gentoo
>> version of a kernel.
>>
>
> Ah, I see that I might have misconstrued myself. My bad.
>
> Regarding drivers: usually they're no big deal, since the 'infrastructure'
> portions of the kernel (e.g., SCSI disk support) are most likely have been
> enabled.
>
> For most applications, usually they don't really care what's in the kernel
> since they operate at a quite high-level.
>
> Problems might arise though if you're doing exotic things. For example: If I
> built the IPset portion as 'built-in' into the kernel, I won't be able to
> install xtables-addons. This is due to the package wanting to install its
> own set of IPset modules.
>
> Fortunately, such cases are few and far between in the Gentooverse. People
> doing exotic things are naturally expected to Know What They Are Doing™ :-)

Speaking from experience, the real difficulty is knowing that you're
doing something exotic. Once you find out, you generally have two
options: Follow the route most people go (such as is happening with
udev), or help fix the system so that your desired approach still
works (such as the fellow who's been working with mdev).

If you're constantly exploring, you'll very likely hit the exotic edge
cases, but then that's going to be part of learning the thing you're
exploring. Gentoo can be really great for that. Even better, in that
it's often not that hard (after a while) to help smooth those edges,
making it easier to go on exploring.
-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> A very small selection of all possible Unixes work the same.
> Ubuntu and Debian are quite similar as they have common roots.
> RedHat works rather like an old Fedora (and to some degree that's almost
> exactly what it is).
> Gentoo looks and feels like whatever you decide to make it to be
> (because it is so highly configurable and adaptable)

> The fact is that the kernel make very little difference to how the
> overall system works. YOU do not interact with the kernel, YOU interact
> with a collection of programs called "userland", and these things can
> all be very different. For example, I'm looking at three computers
> right now that all run Linux, and they are all very very different:

> - this laptop, which is set up as a traditional Unix with X,
> - my phone running Android
> - my wireless router/modem which runs busybox

> Be careful of making rash conclusions about Linux. A Linux system is not
> "like" anything particularly, it is whatever the person who built it
> decided it should be.

> What you will find is that desktop Linuxes share many common elements.
> This is not surprising - all versions of Windows share many common
> elements too.

Thanks for this explanation. I earlier (before this post) used to
think that it is the kernel which is a deciding factor..., but yes it
is correct to say NO for this. Linux is really highly configurable at
least for this reason is a better choice and especially Gentoo - which
could be made to work like anything we wish (as you say)  --- really
great to know. ON one of the machine and in the time to come, I wold
first read how to install Gentoo and then would definitely (100%) try
to install Gentooo ---- at least a successful installation would make
me know many things as far as Gentoo is considered.. Eventually I
would come to these great mailing lists for the help, but since I am
in another job, so it would take much time, but I would try....

Thanks.

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[LinuxIsOne]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> VirtualBox is a program that runs on a working system with a
> functioning OS. Like all programs it needs resources like memory and
> hard disk space. Unlike most programs it usually uses a LOT of memory
> and hard disk space to be useful.

Oh I see. I see VB in Ubuntu...(how to) since right now I have Ubuntu.....

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Indi]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 03:40:02PM +0100, Pandu Poluan wrote:
>    On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <[1]linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>    >
> 
>    ----- >8 snip
> 
> >
> > I have come to conclusion that almost all Linux work almost in the
> > same way since they have the same kernel, however, this is what I
> > think.
> 
>    I don't mean to scare you, but most Linux distros work differently.
> 
>    First, there might be differences in how they install a package.
>    There's RPM, apt, pacman, portage, and others.
> 
>    Second, there are differences in the "init" system. Gentoo users
>    OpenRC, Ubuntu uses upstart, and others use SysVinit, systemd, and so
>    on.
> 
>    And even you can't guarantee that the kernels are the same. Many
>    distros introduce their own distro-specific patches to the vanilla
>    kernel. With Gentoo, it's even more complicated, as most experienced
>    Gentooroids will configure and compile their own kernels.
> 
>    (The last paragraph, however, is the reason why Gentoo is so secure:
>    attackers can't be sure that the vuln they're targeting is located at
>    the right spot, *if* the vuln exists at all. Throw in hardened patches
>    like GrSecurity, PAX, and SELinux... well, you get the idea.)

Probably he doesn't; one has to learn a bit before any of this will
make sense to them. Imagine having this converstaion with your
great-aunt Agnes... ;)

> 
>    ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))
> 

Indeed.

-- 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[James Broadhead]

On 12 December 2011 23:52, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 03:40:02PM +0100, Pandu Poluan wrote:
>>    On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <[1]linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>    ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))
>>
>
> Indeed

What a bunch of ricers :P

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Indi]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 01:10:02AM +0100, James Broadhead wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 23:52, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 03:40:02PM +0100, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> >>    On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <[1]linuxisone@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>    ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))
> >>
> >
> > Indeed
> 
> What a bunch of ricers :P

I LOL'd. :)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] can one tell me: gentoo vs opensuse

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Dec 13, 2011 7:09 AM, "James Broadhead" <jamesbroadhead@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12 December 2011 23:52, Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 03:40:02PM +0100, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> >>    On Dec 10, 2011 8:50 PM, "LinuxIsOne" <[1]linuxisone@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>
> >>    ((No wonder NASDAQ uses Gentoo for its infrastructure))
> >>
> >
> > Indeed
>
> What a bunch of ricers :P
>

I'm sure they are. In the interview [1], Lameter said that <quote> NASDAQ
uses a modified version of the Gentoo Linux distribution. </quote>

"modified version"? That practically screams "ricers!" to me :-D

[1]
http://m.itworld.com/open-source/193823/how-linux-mastered-wall-street?mm_ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gossamer-threads.com%2Flists%2Fgentoo%2Fuser%2F236472

Rgds,

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