[gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

Hi all,

In "man emerge" I read:

--changed-use
  Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
removed.

So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.

The full command I usually run is

emerge --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --complete-graph --update
--changed-use --keep-going world

should that be relevant.

Cheers,
Hilco

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:07:09 -0800
Hilco Wijbenga <hilco.wijbenga@gmail.com> wrote:

> In "man emerge" I read:
> 
> --changed-use
>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
> removed.
> 
> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.

I don't have an answer -- this is just a "me too" post.  I see the same
behavior.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 19 January 2012 13:30, »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:07:09 -0800
> Hilco Wijbenga <hilco.wijbenga@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In "man emerge" I read:
>>
>> --changed-use
>>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
>> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
>> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
>> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
>> removed.
>>
>> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
>> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
>> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
>> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
>> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.
>
> I don't have an answer -- this is just a "me too" post.  I see the same
> behavior.

Thank you. I was starting to feel lonely. :-)

In case you're interested, I managed to work around the 150
unnecessary reinstalls by removing all 'kdeenablefinal' references in
/var/db/pkg/*/*/IUSE. This seems to work very well but it may have
unintended side effects that I'm not aware of.

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In "man emerge" I read:
> 
> --changed-use
>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
> removed.
> 
> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.
> 
> The full command I usually run is
> 
> emerge --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --complete-graph --update
> --changed-use --keep-going world
> 
> should that be relevant.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hilco
> 
> 


Just to be clear, it was a dev that changed the kdeenablefinal flag.  It
was sort of discussed on -dev.  I think the dev that did it doesn't use
-N so it doesn't affect him and I guess he thinks it won't affect others
either.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 19 January 2012 14:28, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In "man emerge" I read:
>>
>> --changed-use
>>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
>> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
>> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
>> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
>> removed.
>>
>> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
>> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
>> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
>> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
>> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.
>>
>> The full command I usually run is
>>
>> emerge --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --complete-graph --update
>> --changed-use --keep-going world
>>
>> should that be relevant.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Hilco
>>
>>
>
>
> Just to be clear, it was a dev that changed the kdeenablefinal flag.  It
> was sort of discussed on -dev.  I think the dev that did it doesn't use
> -N so it doesn't affect him and I guess he thinks it won't affect others
> either.

I know and I don't mind the kdeenablefinal flag being removed. That
makes perfect sense.

It's just that --changed-use ought to have prevented the 150
unnecessary reinstalls. Or at least, I think it should have. :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> On 19 January 2012 14:28, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> In "man emerge" I read:
>>>
>>> --changed-use
>>>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
>>> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
>>> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
>>> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
>>> removed.
>>>
>>> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
>>> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
>>> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
>>> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
>>> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.
>>>
>>> The full command I usually run is
>>>
>>> emerge --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --complete-graph --update
>>> --changed-use --keep-going world
>>>
>>> should that be relevant.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Hilco
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just to be clear, it was a dev that changed the kdeenablefinal flag.  It
>> was sort of discussed on -dev.  I think the dev that did it doesn't use
>> -N so it doesn't affect him and I guess he thinks it won't affect others
>> either.
> 
> I know and I don't mind the kdeenablefinal flag being removed. That
> makes perfect sense.
> 
> It's just that --changed-use ought to have prevented the 150
> unnecessary reinstalls. Or at least, I think it should have. :-)
> 
> 


Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?

-N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)

It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
--newuse. See the man page for the details.

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?
> 
> -N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)
> 
> It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
> --newuse. See the man page for the details.
> 
> 


Well, sort of seems like about the same.  The dev changed the USE flag,
it is changed, portage sees it was changed, portage wants to recompile
it with the new/changed flags.

I'm not exactly clear on the difference between newuse and changed-use.
 If you enable a USE flag, it is changed.  If you disable a USE flag, it
is changed.  If a new flag comes along and it is different than the last
install, then it can be either a new flag or a changed flag.  It should
recompile either way.

Maybe there is some subtle difference somewhere that I am missing.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 19 January 2012 17:38, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>> On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?
>>
>> -N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)
>>
>> It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
>> --newuse. See the man page for the details.
>>
>>
>
>
> Well, sort of seems like about the same.  The dev changed the USE flag,
> it is changed, portage sees it was changed, portage wants to recompile
> it with the new/changed flags.
>
> I'm not exactly clear on the difference between newuse and changed-use.
>  If you enable a USE flag, it is changed.  If you disable a USE flag, it
> is changed.  If a new flag comes along and it is different than the last
> install, then it can be either a new flag or a changed flag.  It should
> recompile either way.

The point here is that a USE flag was removed but it wasn't enabled
anyway. So no recompile necessary. Which is what --changed-use is
supposed to be for (as I understand the man page).

> Maybe there is some subtle difference somewhere that I am missing.

Which is why I included what it says in the man page and then referred
you to said man page... ;-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> On 19 January 2012 17:38, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>>> On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?
>>>
>>> -N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)
>>>
>>> It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
>>> --newuse. See the man page for the details.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Well, sort of seems like about the same.  The dev changed the USE flag,
>> it is changed, portage sees it was changed, portage wants to recompile
>> it with the new/changed flags.
>>
>> I'm not exactly clear on the difference between newuse and changed-use.
>>  If you enable a USE flag, it is changed.  If you disable a USE flag, it
>> is changed.  If a new flag comes along and it is different than the last
>> install, then it can be either a new flag or a changed flag.  It should
>> recompile either way.
> 
> The point here is that a USE flag was removed but it wasn't enabled
> anyway. So no recompile necessary. Which is what --changed-use is
> supposed to be for (as I understand the man page).
> 
>> Maybe there is some subtle difference somewhere that I am missing.
> 
> Which is why I included what it says in the man page and then referred
> you to said man page... ;-)
> 
> 


Well, when I did mine, it showed up as a change.  It was in yellow.
Maybe your system was different or something.

Most man pages are Greek.  My Greek is not real good.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 19 January 2012 19:25, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>> On 19 January 2012 17:38, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>>>> On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?
>>>>
>>>> -N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)
>>>>
>>>> It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
>>>> --newuse. See the man page for the details.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, sort of seems like about the same.  The dev changed the USE flag,
>>> it is changed, portage sees it was changed, portage wants to recompile
>>> it with the new/changed flags.
>>>
>>> I'm not exactly clear on the difference between newuse and changed-use.
>>>  If you enable a USE flag, it is changed.  If you disable a USE flag, it
>>> is changed.  If a new flag comes along and it is different than the last
>>> install, then it can be either a new flag or a changed flag.  It should
>>> recompile either way.
>>
>> The point here is that a USE flag was removed but it wasn't enabled
>> anyway. So no recompile necessary. Which is what --changed-use is
>> supposed to be for (as I understand the man page).
>>
>>> Maybe there is some subtle difference somewhere that I am missing.
>>
>> Which is why I included what it says in the man page and then referred
>> you to said man page... ;-)
>>
>>
>
>
> Well, when I did mine, it showed up as a change.  It was in yellow.
> Maybe your system was different or something.

Nope, same here. And obviously there was a change: a flag was removed.
But, again, my understanding of --changed-use (as opposed to --newuse)
is that it should have prevented the reinstall.

> Most man pages are Greek.  My Greek is not real good.

:-) I don't think they're quite that bad although I agree that you
sometimes sort of already need to know where to look.

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> On 19 January 2012 19:25, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>>> On 19 January 2012 17:38, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>>>>> On 19 January 2012 16:05, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Well, the USE flag got changed.  Isn't that what -N is supposed to do?
>>>>>
>>>>> -N == --newuse not --changed-use :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> It's exactly for this reason that I use --changed-use and not
>>>>> --newuse. See the man page for the details.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, sort of seems like about the same.  The dev changed the USE flag,
>>>> it is changed, portage sees it was changed, portage wants to recompile
>>>> it with the new/changed flags.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly clear on the difference between newuse and changed-use.
>>>>  If you enable a USE flag, it is changed.  If you disable a USE flag, it
>>>> is changed.  If a new flag comes along and it is different than the last
>>>> install, then it can be either a new flag or a changed flag.  It should
>>>> recompile either way.
>>>
>>> The point here is that a USE flag was removed but it wasn't enabled
>>> anyway. So no recompile necessary. Which is what --changed-use is
>>> supposed to be for (as I understand the man page).
>>>
>>>> Maybe there is some subtle difference somewhere that I am missing.
>>>
>>> Which is why I included what it says in the man page and then referred
>>> you to said man page... ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Well, when I did mine, it showed up as a change.  It was in yellow.
>> Maybe your system was different or something.
> 
> Nope, same here. And obviously there was a change: a flag was removed.
> But, again, my understanding of --changed-use (as opposed to --newuse)
> is that it should have prevented the reinstall.
> 
>> Most man pages are Greek.  My Greek is not real good.
> 
> :-) I don't think they're quite that bad although I agree that you
> sometimes sort of already need to know where to look.
> 
> 


Sometimes my problem is it is like shooting skeet, it's a moving target.
 Sometimes it moves pretty darn fast too.  Zac adds it faster than I can
keep up.  I wish they would announce new stuff when it get released,
both unstable and stable.  Then again, maybe it moves so fast he can't
keep up either.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 582 bytes --]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:07:18 -0600, Dale wrote:

> Sometimes my problem is it is like shooting skeet, it's a moving target.
>  Sometimes it moves pretty darn fast too.  Zac adds it faster than I can
> keep up.  I wish they would announce new stuff when it get released,
> both unstable and stable.  Then again, maybe it moves so fast he can't
> keep up either.  lol

--changed-use has been around for many years.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

*Libra*: /(Sept 23--Oct 23)/ An unfortunate typo on your application
results in your being accepted into the Legion Of Superherpes.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:07:18 -0600, Dale wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes my problem is it is like shooting skeet, it's a moving
>> target. Sometimes it moves pretty darn fast too.  Zac adds it
>> faster than I can keep up.  I wish they would announce new stuff
>> when it get released, both unstable and stable.  Then again,
>> maybe it moves so fast he can't keep up either.  lol
> 
> --changed-use has been around for many years.
> 
> 


It sounds like the way it works has changed tho.  I don't think I have
used that option before so I don't know how it used to work.  I think
the OP thinks the same.  Something changed I guess.  We all know that
after the build output disappeared a while back.

Dale

:-)  :-)

- -- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood
or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1357 bytes --]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:08:57 -0600, Dale wrote:

> >> Sometimes my problem is it is like shooting skeet, it's a moving
> >> target. Sometimes it moves pretty darn fast too.  Zac adds it
> >> faster than I can keep up.  I wish they would announce new stuff
> >> when it get released, both unstable and stable.  Then again,
> >> maybe it moves so fast he can't keep up either.  lol  
> > 
> > --changed-use has been around for many years.

> It sounds like the way it works has changed tho.  I don't think I have
> used that option before so I don't know how it used to work.  I think
> the OP thinks the same.  Something changed I guess.  We all know
> that after the build output disappeared a while back.

It hasn't changed and generally works as expected. I suspect this is
specific to the KDE ebuilds (or eclass). changed-use should only skip an
ebuild with changed flags if re-emerging would produce exactly the same
code as before, this may not be the case. For example, in some ebuilds,
it is the absence of a USE flag that triggers an extra configure option,
so removing that use flag would give the same code as if the package had
been emerged with it enabled.

Something like this happened recently with the nls flag on glibc.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 04:08:57 -0600, Dale wrote:
> 
>>>> Sometimes my problem is it is like shooting skeet, it's a
>>>> moving target. Sometimes it moves pretty darn fast too.  Zac
>>>> adds it faster than I can keep up.  I wish they would
>>>> announce new stuff when it get released, both unstable and
>>>> stable.  Then again, maybe it moves so fast he can't keep up
>>>> either.  lol
>>> 
>>> --changed-use has been around for many years.
> 
>> It sounds like the way it works has changed tho.  I don't think I
>> have used that option before so I don't know how it used to work.
>> I think the OP thinks the same.  Something changed I guess.  We
>> all know that after the build output disappeared a while back.
> 
> It hasn't changed and generally works as expected. I suspect this
> is specific to the KDE ebuilds (or eclass). changed-use should only
> skip an ebuild with changed flags if re-emerging would produce
> exactly the same code as before, this may not be the case. For
> example, in some ebuilds, it is the absence of a USE flag that
> triggers an extra configure option, so removing that use flag would
> give the same code as if the package had been emerged with it
> enabled.
> 
> Something like this happened recently with the nls flag on glibc.
> 
> 


I'll take your word for it.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood
or how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:06:22 +0000
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> I suspect this is
> specific to the KDE ebuilds (or eclass). changed-use should only skip
> an ebuild with changed flags if re-emerging would produce exactly the
> same code as before, this may not be the case. For example, in some
> ebuilds, it is the absence of a USE flag that triggers an extra
> configure option, so removing that use flag would give the same code
> as if the package had been emerged with it enabled.
> 
> Something like this happened recently with the nls flag on glibc.

Ah, that makes sense -- thanks.  (And now I wish I'd read the entire
thread in dev before I posted a few minutes ago.)

IMO, the man page's section on --changed-use should say what you've
just said rather than what it says now.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:00:52 -0600
»Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:06:22 +0000
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > I suspect this is
> > specific to the KDE ebuilds (or eclass). changed-use should only
> > skip an ebuild with changed flags if re-emerging would produce
> > exactly the same code as before, this may not be the case. For
> > example, in some ebuilds, it is the absence of a USE flag that
> > triggers an extra configure option, so removing that use flag would
> > give the same code as if the package had been emerged with it
> > enabled.
> > 
> > Something like this happened recently with the nls flag on glibc.
> 
> Ah, that makes sense -- thanks.  (And now I wish I'd read the entire
> thread in dev before I posted a few minutes ago.)
> 
> IMO, the man page's section on --changed-use should say what you've
> just said rather than what it says now.

I saw the logs from the kde team meeting where they discussed removing
kdeenablefinal and decided when to do it. My own update on that ran
overnight so I wasn't too fazed.

But is this not a case where the kde eclass *explictly* set the USE
flag off? (Disclaimer: haven't read the eclass). In that case portage
would not know what to do when the flag goes away so the behaviour we
saw would not really be a bug, it would be "playing safe"

--changed-use is intended for cases like a flag you are not using at
all goes away. Caveat: Even then it could still break in subtle ways
with dodgy ebuilds. Caveat emptor.


 
-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Hilco Wijbenga]

On 21 January 2012 03:26, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 11:00:52 -0600
> »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:06:22 +0000
>> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > I suspect this is
>> > specific to the KDE ebuilds (or eclass). changed-use should only
>> > skip an ebuild with changed flags if re-emerging would produce
>> > exactly the same code as before, this may not be the case. For
>> > example, in some ebuilds, it is the absence of a USE flag that
>> > triggers an extra configure option, so removing that use flag would
>> > give the same code as if the package had been emerged with it
>> > enabled.
>> >
>> > Something like this happened recently with the nls flag on glibc.
>>
>> Ah, that makes sense -- thanks.  (And now I wish I'd read the entire
>> thread in dev before I posted a few minutes ago.)
>>
>> IMO, the man page's section on --changed-use should say what you've
>> just said rather than what it says now.
>
> I saw the logs from the kde team meeting where they discussed removing
> kdeenablefinal and decided when to do it. My own update on that ran
> overnight so I wasn't too fazed.
>
> But is this not a case where the kde eclass *explictly* set the USE
> flag off? (Disclaimer: haven't read the eclass). In that case portage
> would not know what to do when the flag goes away so the behaviour we
> saw would not really be a bug, it would be "playing safe"

I do not quite follow your logic here. Whether a USE flag is forcibly
disabled, not enabled, or disabled by default, does not make any
practical difference: it is not used. So when it is then removed later
on, no rebuild is necessary. It was not used before, now it does not
even exist any more.

> --changed-use is intended for cases like a flag you are not using at
> all goes away. Caveat: Even then it could still break in subtle ways
> with dodgy ebuilds. Caveat emptor.

Which is *exactly* what happened here (IIUC). The use of
kdeenablefinal has been discouraged from the start [or at least for a
very long time] so I (and presumably most people) never enabled it.
Now it has been removed. Ergo: nothing needs to be rebuilt.

I do not think it makes sense to worry about dodgy ebuilds. If you go
down that road, you would have to rebuild *everything* every time
there is a change ... just in case. Dodgy ebuilds should be fixed, not
catered to.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:45:25 -0800
Hilco Wijbenga <hilco.wijbenga@gmail.com> wrote:

> > But is this not a case where the kde eclass *explictly* set the USE
> > flag off? (Disclaimer: haven't read the eclass). In that case
> > portage would not know what to do when the flag goes away so the
> > behaviour we saw would not really be a bug, it would be "playing
> > safe"  
> 
> I do not quite follow your logic here. Whether a USE flag is forcibly
> disabled, not enabled, or disabled by default, does not make any
> practical difference: it is not used. So when it is then removed later
> on, no rebuild is necessary. It was not used before, now it does not
> even exist any more.

Like I said, I haven't read the eclass and I'm not likely to either -
it's no skin off my nose to waste cycles I'm not using overnight while
150 KDE packages rebuild.

I simply wanted to point out that disabling something is not
necessarily a zero-sum game. It is trivial to write ebuild statements
along the lines of "if this flag is not set, then include support for
that thing". If the flag then later goes away, that ebuild statement is
redundant and not used as "not present" is a very different thing from
"not set". Yes, a coder can build a system where that assumption is
indeed applied throughout but I haven't seen anything in portage to
indicate if it does or not.

Figuring out what stuff you don't need to do is hard. Building a list
of stuff you might need to do is very easy. The logic behind
--changed-use falls square in the former case, and the math involved is
not simple either.

I don't know what portage will do about disabled flags that then go
away. Personally, I would never write code that assumed a flag that was
explicitly disabled must have done nothing and can therefore be
discarded.


> > --changed-use is intended for cases like a flag you are not using at
> > all goes away. Caveat: Even then it could still break in subtle ways
> > with dodgy ebuilds. Caveat emptor.  
> 
> Which is *exactly* what happened here (IIUC). The use of
> kdeenablefinal has been discouraged from the start [or at least for a
> very long time] so I (and presumably most people) never enabled it.
> Now it has been removed. Ergo: nothing needs to be rebuilt.
> 
> I do not think it makes sense to worry about dodgy ebuilds. If you go
> down that road, you would have to rebuild *everything* every time
> there is a change ... just in case. Dodgy ebuilds should be fixed, not
> catered to.

Dodgy ebuilds includes ebuilds that use legal syntax that was never a
good idea to begin with. A classic case would be "no<something>" USE
flags that are thankfully now rare. We can't dismiss ebuilds that
contain syntax that was perfectly legal a while ago.

-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:26:45 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> --changed-use is intended for cases like a flag you are not using at
> all goes away. Caveat: Even then it could still break in subtle ways
> with dodgy ebuilds. Caveat emptor.

Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll still
use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an update with
--newuse.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 08:23:18PM -0600, ??Q?? wrote

> Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
> doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll still
> use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an update with
> --newuse.

  What's the longest that most software on Gentoo goes without an
update?  The next update would, by definition, fix any breakage caused
by a dropped flag.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:34:52 -0500
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 08:23:18PM -0600, ??Q?? wrote
> 
> > Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
> > doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll
> > still use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an
> > update with --newuse.  
> 
>   What's the longest that most software on Gentoo goes without an
> update?  The next update would, by definition, fix any breakage caused
> by a dropped flag.

That's true, but it won't hurt me to emerge -puNDv world every once in a
while.  I have an alias for it anyway, and I don't think I could break
the habit of typing it occasionally.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:34:52 -0500
> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 08:23:18PM -0600, ??Q?? wrote
>>
>>> Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
>>> doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll
>>> still use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an
>>> update with --newuse.  
>>
>>   What's the longest that most software on Gentoo goes without an
>> update?  The next update would, by definition, fix any breakage caused
>> by a dropped flag.
> 
> That's true, but it won't hurt me to emerge -puNDv world every once in a
> while.  I have an alias for it anyway, and I don't think I could break
> the habit of typing it occasionally.
> 
> 

I do mine this way.  I sync the tree with eix, run emerge -uvaDN world
then --depclean -a then revdep-rebuild.  Once in a while, I run a emerge
-e world.  I usually do that when KDE upgrades since it doesn't take to
much longer.

I used to just do -u world.  I had issues that would pop up sometimes
that were really strange and recompiling packages it depends on fixed
it.  So, I added -D.  That fixed a good bit.  Then I was always changing
some USE flag so I added the -N since if I changed nothing, it did
nothing.

Thing is, you do what you need to to have the system you want.  Some
update every day.  Some update once a week and some once a month and
then some less often than that.  Thing is, you get to pick that.  I just
like a update to date system but stable too.  I update sometimes twice a
week sometimes once every couple weeks.

This is one of those "it depends" things.  Picks what works for you.

Dale

:-)  :-)


-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:34:52 -0500
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 08:23:18PM -0600, ??Q?? wrote
> 
> > Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
> > doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll
> > still use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an
> > update with --newuse.
> 
>   What's the longest that most software on Gentoo goes without an
> update?  The next update would, by definition, fix any breakage caused
> by a dropped flag.
> 

What's the largest number of bugs users will open on bgo if portage
makes the wrong decision?



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:23:18 -0600, »Q« wrote:

> Thanks for the points you've made about how removal of a flag a user
> doesn't have enabled could still affect the user.  I think I'll still
> use --changed-use routinely and also periodically run an update with
> --newuse.

That's harmless, but unnecessary. This thread demonstrates that portage
takes the safe option of "if in doubt, re-emerge" so changed-use should
always be enough. I can't remember the last time I user --newuse, but it
has been several years.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Our bikinis are exciting. They are simply the tops.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:25:31 -0600
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Most man pages are Greek.  My Greek is not real good.

Maybe you've got LINGUAS set incorrectly. ;)

Quoting the relevant bit again,

  the --changed-use option does not trigger reinstallation when flags
  that the user has not enabled are added or removed.

kdeenablefinla was a flag the user (me or Hilco) had *not* enabled, so
that option should *not* have triggered reinstallation.

FWIW, there is discussion of the issue of triggering needless
reinstalls on the dev list now because of kdeenablefinal, buried in the
thread "[gentoo-commits] gentoo-x86 commit in sys-libs/glibc:...".  It's
mixed in with arguing about changing USE flags on stable ebuilds.

--changed-use isn't mentioned, instead --exclude=kde-base/* is
recommended, and they are talking about mentioning --exclude in the
--newuse section of the man page.

I'm not filing a --changed-use bug or posting in the dev list because of
Medico's IMO rather prickly attitude about this kind of thing.  He
says in this case:

  The fact is, the user is not being forced to rebuild anything. They can 
  simply run full system updates with --newuse less often if it puts
  too much strain on them.

Lest I seem ungrateful, let me be clear I do appreciate the tons of
work he's put into portage for many years.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

»Q« wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 21:25:31 -0600
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Most man pages are Greek.  My Greek is not real good.
> 
> Maybe you've got LINGUAS set incorrectly. ;)
> 
> Quoting the relevant bit again,
> 
>   the --changed-use option does not trigger reinstallation when flags
>   that the user has not enabled are added or removed.
> 
> kdeenablefinla was a flag the user (me or Hilco) had *not* enabled, so
> that option should *not* have triggered reinstallation.
> 
> FWIW, there is discussion of the issue of triggering needless
> reinstalls on the dev list now because of kdeenablefinal, buried in the
> thread "[gentoo-commits] gentoo-x86 commit in sys-libs/glibc:...".  It's
> mixed in with arguing about changing USE flags on stable ebuilds.
> 
> --changed-use isn't mentioned, instead --exclude=kde-base/* is
> recommended, and they are talking about mentioning --exclude in the
> --newuse section of the man page.
> 
> I'm not filing a --changed-use bug or posting in the dev list because of
> Medico's IMO rather prickly attitude about this kind of thing.  He
> says in this case:
> 
>   The fact is, the user is not being forced to rebuild anything. They can 
>   simply run full system updates with --newuse less often if it puts
>   too much strain on them.
> 
> Lest I seem ungrateful, let me be clear I do appreciate the tons of
> work he's put into portage for many years.
> 
> 
> 


Well, I'm like this.  I had to emerge those packages because of the USE
flag doing whatever you want to call it.  Then a couple days later, I
had to do it again for another reason.  I posted this on -dev that I
wish they could have done both changes at the same time and someone else
posted about the same thing.  That is a wish tho, nothing else.  No
harm, nothing broke or blew up.  My biggest thing tho, I want a sane
system that works.  Sometimes that means compiling software several
times.  If that is the case, then fine because I get what I want.  I
used to run emerge -uv world for my updates.  Sometimes that lead to
issues.  Something changed and software would no longer work correctly
or was buggy or something.  So, I added options until I could get a sane
system.  I ended up with this boatload of settings:

emerge --jobs=10 --backtrack=30 --keep-going --verbose --newuse
--oneshot --quiet-build=n --with-bdeps=y --deep < world or some package
here >

Lets also not forget the revdep-rebuild command either.

That thing grew over time.  Thing is, my system works pretty darn well.
That's what I wanted.  This is also why I built a nice rig to do this on
too.  I built my rig from parts with a AMD 4 core CPU running at 3.2Ghz,
16Gbs of ram with portages work directory on tmpfs and plenty of drive
space.  I also have one heck of a CPU cooler and a super nice case with
lots of fans.  All this because I know Gentoo requires lots of compiling.

The comment about man pages being Greek was sort of a old saying for
when you read something but it doesn't help or don't understand it.  I
could have said that it was in French, Russian or any other language
that I don't speak.  Sort of like a joke.

As everyone knows, there is always a workaround for things but you also
have to pick and chose your settings.  I recently added --oneshot
because sometime back things started getting added to the world file
even if it was just a request for a upgrade of the package.  I didn't
know that was changed and neither did some other folks.  I had to go
clean up my world file and I think others did the same.

Sometimes I wonder if I should freeze portage version in place, read the
man page and get everything set like I EXPECT then stick with it for a
good long while.  Thing is, Zac adds some really neat stuff and most
everything is really nice.  Sometimes things sort of surprise me, like
adding packages to the world file when you only want a upgrade, but
still, he does make emerge do some neato things.

So, I may disagree with Zac on some things and I usually point that out
but I to am grateful for what he does cause he does some really neat
things.  I also read somewhere that portage was a bit of a mess when he
started.  I think all coders say that since everyone has their own style
but still, he has brought portage forward to say it lightly.  We should
all be supportive of that.  I know I am.  I even said that when the
build output change discussion was going on.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

[gentoo-user] Re: Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[»Q«]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 10:53:32 -0600
»Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:

> I'm not filing a --changed-use bug or posting in the dev list because
> of Medico's IMO rather prickly attitude about this kind of thing.  He
> says in this case:
> 
>   The fact is, the user is not being forced to rebuild anything. They
>   can simply run full system updates with --newuse less often if it
>   puts too much strain on them.
> 
> Lest I seem ungrateful, let me be clear I do appreciate the tons of
> work he's put into portage for many years.

And I probably owe him an apology for pulling a quote out of context.

Re: [gentoo-user] Portage option "--changed-use" not working?

[Dale]

Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In "man emerge" I read:
> 
> --changed-use
>   Tells  emerge  to  include  installed packages where USE flags have
> changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective
> option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger
> reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added or
> removed.
> 
> So I always include "--changed-use" when upgrading @world. But with
> the removal of kdeenablefinal I now get 150 reinstalls with
> changed-use. This seems to be contradicting the man page? Or am I
> misunderstanding things? Or did I misconfigure something? To be clear,
> I have never enabled kdeenablefinal.
> 
> The full command I usually run is
> 
> emerge --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --complete-graph --update
> --changed-use --keep-going world
> 
> should that be relevant.
> 
> Cheers,
> Hilco
> 
> 


To update, it appears this was a bug and Zac has fixed it.  This is from
-dev:

On 01/20/2012 10:28 AM, Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> I'd like to chime in here. I started a thread on gentoo-user (Portage
> option "--changed-use" not working?) pretty much about this.
>
> I use --changed-use instead of --newuse to get the advantages of a
> fully up-to-date system without the unnecessary churn. From the man
> page I understand that (part of) the idea behind --changed-use is to
> *not* rebuild packages where an unused/disabled USE flag is dropped.
> Which ought to apply to kdeenablefinal, right?
>
> It seems my understanding is incorrect because I see --new-use +
> --exclude is being recommended, not --changed-use. Would somebody
> please set me straight?
You've found a bug. It's fixed in git now:

http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/portage.git;a=commit;h=a77292d37e3c2604479514abed2dda64dabace25

As a workaround, you can add --binpkg-respect-use=n to your options.
-- Thanks, Zac

So, it will work like it should pretty soon.  Things are getting better.
 Gentoo has been doing that for years anyway.  lol

Dale

:-) :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output?  Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"