From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FFA1381F3 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:56:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1ADAE0B7F; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:56:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f52.google.com (mail-la0-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59E30E0AD5 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:56:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fd20so4856716lab.11 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:56:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=en57V/4A8O93HtyRl9ZJowaVQGW/2I5HyWprbe+qqjk=; b=Be4mn3QzsxJEAY/6o4reEuUZlZewZAmq7rJplCdMYDh3ov05ZuNwhgamQ0w5HAjrBC Q/KJUteIXQVGDNDq08Wv37Ygz9JMMCusoH/APl6q68iRqtqEySiThPe/Kp8s7qzZxkvl qyYdcVcVB1+reY12AXcH5LGcY+BD+YNhdUO2JBI09DdM4uB4y0l/T8jOxzJhELE0ox+r 8Z10+PjbnMp+Dechv6S1TzAUVME3GvHjeDdHQn39VeZiHDNOti7Rymeza3z5goCqoB3T sswsHxFT6W8vKLLre+bP51ryTTeziz/nhYdeG1e52QB0qrWZaw2g3FR6F3OcF55YHYZP jgHw== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.199.230 with SMTP id jn6mr25419691lbc.131.1367171783600; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.26.105 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:56:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <517D5891.6070901@gmail.com> References: <20130418193224.GA3234@acm.acm> <5170F203.3@gmail.com> <20130420093414.GA31686@waltdnes.org> <20130425191724.GA14098@waltdnes.org> <517A6D7D.7080708@yandex.ru> <517AC16D.6060400@yandex.ru> <517ADABA.1040006@yandex.ru> <1367078136.2194.132.camel@localhost> <517C3168.1000404@gmail.com> <1367108690.2194.160.camel@localhost> <517CF311.4070808@gmail.com> <517D5891.6070901@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:56:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 807136fd-026f-4822-908c-11d6a1b2aff3 X-Archives-Hash: 02df0c363d8aff30c4f6b39aa8ffa9f4 On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Alan McKinnon w= rote: > On 28/04/2013 18:11, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >>> What we complain about here is basic low-level software changes that >>> > affect much more than just their own little universe, and will do it = ON >>> > ALL LINUX MACHINES NOW AND IN THE FUTURE. >> The source is out there NOW AND IN THE FUTURE. If there is enough >> developers interested in maintaining something, it will be maintained; >> but you cannot force no developer to maintain nothing. > > You keep saying this, over and over in many places for many reasons. > > But it just is not true. > > It's easy to get a dev to support something - you just ask them. > > Have you ever asked a dev to support something you needed? Yes of course; you can ask a developer for anything: you can ask him, for example, to throw himself over a cliff. Believe me: he will probably not do it. I said: you cannot *FORCE* a developer to maintain nothing. You want to *FORCE* them to support PA-less systems (in the case of GNOME, perhaps, in the future) and /usr-separated systems without initramfs (in udev case), only because *you* think is the right thing to do, or because it was previously "supported" (in the /usr-separated it was actually a problem waiting to happen). The developers in those projects made their choice: make yours. Stick with those projects and accept that the developers word is law; or contribute so that your word has weight; or fork the project; or switch projects; or whatever. Complaining over choices already made by the people in charge is not very productive. Of course you can express your opinion. But without any code behind it, the most probably outcome is that it will be ignored. Even more in a place like this list: some Gentoo developers read gentoo-user, and from those even less are upstream in certain projects. But the majority of the people writing the code (the kernel, systemd-udev, PulseAudio, GStreamer, GNOME, whatever-application-you-use) most of the time don't read this list. Complaining here about PulseAudio being a hard dependency on GNOME is basically yelling into an echo chamber: you will most of the time get only responses from people with the same opinion as yours, and they all will get into a long rant about the evils of who-knows-what new fangled project that goes against "old Unix principles" (whatever that is). And. Nothing. Will. Change... because the people coding the code are the ones making the decisions. And they do not read (in general) this particular mailing list. The developers in several projects are making their decisions; sometimes they listen to users, sometimes they don't. If we don't step in and contribute code to said projects, arguing here about what constitutes a "good" or a "bad" developer is pretty pointless. To finish (this mail and my participation in this thread), you know what developer is famous for not listening to users? Linus Torvalds. Google what has happened whenever someone has tried to set up a petition campaign to get something into the kernel. And he's certainly one of the best project leaders we have. -- Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico