From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CB6138E20 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:04:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1825DE0BDD; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:04:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lb0-f194.google.com (mail-lb0-f194.google.com [209.85.217.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A816CE0B35 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:04:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f194.google.com with SMTP id q8so545440lbi.9 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=m1mR+C8SvhZ3naM+NH/vMWXDWRXR/y1Sn/9iGWDB/I8=; b=MR/GAkgMwxOnQn1nfhJphNvj5O4QZCB8COQsYz89gVy3PrLpCAjO1m6MOEnwSHKVXT pC19QyTwVu0hKf8KMO/B5r7e2Jfu+d+qAJhwhkti/Jbbn1f1CiJwbFLz74EeiZwWDRcp sA46SrUnTHI9fDx24ZuhMZ/cq1Ayqz8bJJfxPJNPy0nq0NSDDvEv7+SE4d3I+5JgA0RR HpRKxksfWHtyzskdxkV14Bm3xhPyJemce3XVreNUjWJPF5FeY8gUF+UYBiGoa//wgCcW B9gWHR3+yRGRqmsfSCyFxUgdACaYRDn7ZeVmsSJI9mn/h08yJ+vPb5LHPuCnu5K51G8A +NMQ== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.190.69 with SMTP id go5mr2248571lac.79.1392930269566; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.170.67 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.170.67 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5306603C.1040602@libertytrek.org> References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <5302c048.462f0e0a.3d3e.5888@mx.google.com> <20140218210633.d25f4bb88b3891f7c0ed11c6@gmail.com> <20140218220712.9ec8d2529ef49d743b3bc826@gmail.com> <5304576E.4000704@sporkbox.us> <5304A5DE.4050905@libertytrek.org> <5305FACC.8080705@libertytrek.org> <530646EA.4020300@libertytrek.org> <5306603C.1040602@libertytrek.org> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 15:04:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1136c86cea1a2404f2dcd959 X-Archives-Salt: 37082313-a3f9-4654-b377-44cdf06a7740 X-Archives-Hash: 34d5beda45797ad5d8393e93cd2be697 --001a1136c86cea1a2404f2dcd959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2014-02-20 1:36 PM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s w= rote: >> >> The moment I saw that the profile is already done, I changed my >> mind; the people using systemd ALREADY did the work (which seems to be >> trivial, BTW; I didn't knew that either), therefore no one is trying >> forcing anyone to do work, then a systemd profile is fine (since it's >> already done). > > > Well, sort of... there are currently only two systemd profiles (gnome and > kde). No, the link [1] that Andreas K. Huettel posted in [2] (which I believe you never saw) *IS* basically all you need for a systemd "profile". It's, almost literally, *nothing*. > Is someone wants to use systemd with any of the other predefined profiles= , > ie: > > default/linux/amd64/13.0 > > then their current choice is to change to systemd manually (which as you and > others have pointed out doesn't seem to be that big a deal), or, if they > wanted to make it easier for anyone/everyone else (which, I believe, as a > systemd proponent, you would be in favor of) to choose systemd at install > time, they could do the work of creating a new systemd version of each of > the other profiles. > > Hmmm... > > Thinking about this more, since apparently using a separate profile may just > be 'overkill', how about something simpler, like, for example, using > eselect... > > Something like: > > # eselect init list > Available init systems: > [1] OpenRC * > [2] systemd > [3] runit > > (whatever choices are supported). > > Or am I just being ridiculous? No, yo are not; but the switching requires reemerging things because you need to set some USE flags and quit others. That's the "difficult" (which is not, really) part; if you set the USE flags yourself or via a profile, or an eselect module, I don't think the difference matters at all. >> This is orthogonal to which init system is the default, I think. > > No, actually, I think whatever is defined as the current default should > dictate which group should be required to do the work. I think this is where we think differently (regarding this particular point). The work must be done by *whomever* wants to do the job. So if the systemd people want to do a profile that's fine (and this already happened); but if they don't want to, nobody can force them to do it (this is academic right now, since they already did the [pretty trivial] work). If the systemd people did not wanted to do the job, then, since you can't force them, the people *not* wanting systemd would be the ones required to do it. And that makes absolutely no sense. Again, this is all moot since the profile already exists. And even without a profile, the change is easy enough. >> I was just arguing that if a group A of people want a profile X, that >> group A of people must do the work to get said profile X working. In >> the case of systemd, that means *using* systemd, so it made no sense >> to me that the group A did the work, when they *do not* want to use >> systemd. > > > ? > > If Group A wants to be able to easily use systemd in gentoo, then Group A > people must get together and create systemd version of all of the profile= s > they want to be able to use systemd with... ie, if they want a hardened > amd64 systemd profile, they would have to create one. That's the failing in your logic (IMO); if group A wants systemd, they already got it. No profile would make it easier (since reemerging stuff will still be necessary), so we don't really need it. Even so, such a profile (or "candidate" for a profile, if you desire to call it that way) already exists. But if nobody wants to do a systemd "proper" profile, that's fine, and nobody will force no one to write it. >> Once again, all of this is made moot by the fact that the systemd >> profile is basically available now. But that does not change my point >> that if someone wants a X profile, then the burden of work must fall >> on that someone. > > I agree... but since OpenRC is the default init system for gentoo, and > certain people want to make it easier for people to install and/or switch to > systemd in gentoo, then it is on *those* people to do the work. If someone willing and able wants to do the work, it will be done. If nobody wants to do the work, the work will not get done. Business as usual in Gentoo and Linux. > I'm still not sure why we are still discussing this... ;) Just some different views on how the work gets done, I think. > Maybe a language thing? Possibly. Regards. [1] http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/targets/sy= stemd/ [2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272668 --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico --001a1136c86cea1a2404f2dcd959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote: > On 2014-02-20 1:36 PM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The moment I saw that the profile is already done, I changed my >> mind; the people using systemd ALREADY did the work (which seems t= o be
>> trivial, BTW; I didn't knew that either), therefore no one is = trying
>> forcing anyone to do work, then a systemd profile is fine (since i= t's
>> already done).
>
>
> Well, sort of... there are currently only two systemd profiles (gnome = and
> kde).

No, the link [1] that Andreas K. Huettel posted in [2] (whic= h I believe you never saw) *IS* basically all you need for a systemd "= profile".

It's, almost literally, *nothing*.

> Is someone wants to use systemd with any of the other p= redefined profiles,
> ie:
>
> default/linux/amd64/13.0
>
> then their current choice is to change to systemd manually (which as y= ou and
> others have pointed out doesn't seem to be that big a deal), or, i= f they
> wanted to make it easier for anyone/everyone else (which, I believe, a= s a
> systemd proponent, you would be in favor of) to choose systemd at inst= all
> time, they could do the work of creating a new systemd version of each= of
> the other profiles.
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Thinking about this more, since apparently using a separate profile ma= y just
> be 'overkill', how about something simpler, like, for example,= using
> eselect...
>
> Something like:
>
> # eselect init list
> Available init systems:
> [1] OpenRC *
> [2] systemd
> [3] runit
>
> (whatever choices are supported).
>
> Or am I just being ridiculous?

No, yo are not; but the switching requires reemerging things= because you need to set some USE flags and quit others. That's the &qu= ot;difficult" (which is not, really) part; if you set the USE flags yo= urself or via a profile, or an eselect module, I don't think the differ= ence matters at all.

>> This is orthogonal to which init system is the defa= ult, I think.
>
> No, actually, I think whatever is defined as the current default shoul= d
> dictate which group should be required to do the work.

I think this is where we think differently (regarding this p= articular point). The work must be done by *whomever* wants to do the job. = So if the systemd people want to do a profile that's fine (and this alr= eady happened); but if they don't want to, nobody can force them to do = it (this is academic right now, since they already did the [pretty trivial]= work).

If the systemd people did not wanted to do the job, then, si= nce you can't force them, the people *not* wanting systemd would be the= ones required to do it. And that makes absolutely no sense.

Again, this is all moot since the profile already exists. An= d even without a profile, the change is easy enough.

>> I was just arguing that if a group A of people want= a profile X, that
>> group A of people must do the work to get said profile X working. = In
>> the case of systemd, that means *using* systemd, so it made no sen= se
>> to me that the group A did the work, when they *do not* want to us= e
>> systemd.
>
>
> ?
>
> If Group A wants to be able to easily use systemd in gentoo, then Grou= p A
> people must get together and create systemd version of all of the prof= iles
> they want to be able to use systemd with... ie, if they want a hardene= d
> amd64 systemd profile, they would have to create one.

That's the failing in your logic (IMO); if group A wants= systemd, they already got it. No profile would make it easier (since reeme= rging stuff will still be necessary), so we don't really need it. Even = so, such a profile (or "candidate" for a profile, if you desire t= o call it that way) already exists.

But if nobody wants to do a systemd "proper" profi= le, that's fine, and nobody will force no one to write it.

>> Once again, all of this is made moot by the fact th= at the systemd
>> profile is basically available now. But that does not change my po= int
>> that if someone wants a X profile, then the burden of work must fa= ll
>> on that someone.
>
> I agree... but since OpenRC is the default init system for gentoo, and=
> certain people want to make it easier for people to install and/or swi= tch to
> systemd in gentoo, then it is on *those* people to do the work.

If someone willing and able wants to do the work, it will be= done. If nobody wants to do the work, the work will not get done. Business= as usual in Gentoo and Linux.

> I'm still not sure why we are still discussing this= ... ;)

Just some different views on how the work gets done, I think= .

> Maybe a language thing?

Possibly.

Regards.

[1] http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/vie= wvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/targets/systemd/
[2] htt= p://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272668
--
Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n
Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico

--001a1136c86cea1a2404f2dcd959--