From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1R1gjL-0005o8-PZ for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 15:41:32 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 41CBC21C1A3; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 15:41:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2A421C021 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 15:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so897694wyg.40 for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ft2WEjSD9T+9inkLnEg85sCjASAJNjx9G+l743chzoo=; b=NABnkdBlPHs0qjgCZO/R78dXeF4pEOOgU8pQGelkjsbitYwuXjh//8iB2mp9+sCnLy O0YLsgI/5vcWJj8U4qwiZ2wIGjx75NcA13uiY5tyrj8mZKo5f1XIN2x0DnNUwZLzcGsm Sw2n0yZZlsquj9i8VGGnKagdTYwMy3S70CJR8= Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.181.141 with SMTP id l13mr841630wem.98.1315496417398; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.39.140 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201108191109.34984.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <20110907050952.GA2588@linux1> <4E66FFFA.2020600@gmail.com> <201109071923.39954.Dan.Johansson@dmj.nu> <20110907235457.691be720@zaphod.digimed.co.uk> <20110908005500.58ef10fa@zaphod.digimed.co.uk> <4E68390A.9090106@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:40:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] /dev/sda* missing at boot From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: X-Archives-Hash: b73a460b35c342bacb1b8f4e2d4b2d04 On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol wrote: > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 11:39 PM, Dale wrote: >>> Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >>>> >>>> Then don't update. Wanna keep up with upstream? Then accept that somet= imes >>>> you will need to change your setup, and change how you do stuff. Regar= ds. >>> >>> This is so like something I have told folks about windoze. =C2=A0Awesom= e ! =C2=A0To >>> think I stayed away from windoze because of the freedom Linux gives a u= ser >>> just to find out now, its not as different as I thought. =C2=A0:-( >> >> But the freedom is still there. The freedom to either keep your system >> as it is (don't upgrade), or to modify the source code to suit your >> own needs. > > Please don't ever, ever, ever recommend not upgrading as a reasonable > long-term strategy. I don't like to think about how many security > problems exist in systems I'm familiar with because "not upgrading" > was the more convenient route. Please refer to my other responses: of course you need to upgrade security flaws. But in production, that's it. > The other side of what you're saying, "show me the code," is > reasonable. And if there's only one upstream maintainer who's got what > feels like the entire Linux community over a barrel on this, that > seems like a really good idea in principle. I agree. >> Just don't expect from upstream to maintain code for each and every >> possible configuration. It gets really complex really really really >> fast. > > See also: LibreOffice requiring CUPS discussion earlier this week. No > surprises there, and it's understandable. > > Still, I think I understand the complexity of what we're talking > about, yet it feels like the developer has a serious case of "my use > cases are the most valid ones, and I want to simplify udev's problem > space in favor of that." > > As long as (and only as long as) udev isn't required for a server to > well and correctly, that's almost reasonable. That almost puts it in > the same class as DBus. (See the discussion from *last* week.) > > Perhaps udev's problem is that it's too complex, as a result of having > too large a problem scope. I don't agree: udev is really small and (for what it does) really simple. Not having udev (or dbus for that matter) is going back ten or fifteen years. Both projects are prime examples of what I see as *progress* in Linux. >> Upstream (either Gentoo, or the kernel, or udev, or all of them) will >> decide to support only a subset of all possible configurations and it >> will mark them as supported. Don't aprove of that? Then maintain it >> yourself (which you have the freedom to do), or keep up with the >> change. >> >> Freedom doesn't equals to "give me everything I want, and the way I >> want it". The freedom we have is "here is this set of programs, and we >> support this set of configurations; if you don't like it, here is also >> the source code". Which is light years better than in Windows or MacOS > > Code or GTFO. Classic FL/OSS fare. (Admittedly the best solution we've > found so far) It's not the best: it's the only one. Because as long as someone does not write code, he can argue until his throat is dry but nobody will really care. > I remember devfs, and that it was rejected in favor of udev because > some things belong in userspace. udev, as far as I understand, udev > listens to hotplug events and performs actions in response. Perhaps an > alternate implementation is in order. Like I have been saying: by all means, write it if so you think. But the kernel devs went through three iterations (classical Unix /dev, devfs, and finally udev) to get to this point. I really don't think a new implementation is neither necessary nor required. But maybe I'm wrong, and some hotshot programmer will get it really right (TM) next time. I really dubt it, though. Regards. --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico