From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <gentoo-user+bounces-143931-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org> Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA691381FB for <garchives@archives.gentoo.org>; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:39:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3FE5E21C03B; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:39:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7EE721C00C for <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 23:38:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 17so12328903iea.30 for <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:38:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JSdUlbkIBYOfHt8UHuxLJWe0H9GEjC3m2cr9M3LcerQ=; b=fcdAtyIAKR3cGVVPfUEf9GJ3Cf81K/5YuNKOvFA3PYkwbiOKpWIcSux5/5C3gt2DBM 2cLIcDz0BtPZV/4ka+cVYJJ1QMWMBaWUMLRXeUjwdLi1LXd0IonooHRkSF1KUeiomv+X tLjnDpiNErwqXO8Tro8LFlNc5QrpM2tqtitkrLWvLaGvYQE0jxRN7uJhXj/Ncbb5LaKp R8DnweXqF/pJ5ZrvYdbl7pK+Hf7nkDFXRQ7kJ7xi0zsqx0d6CDIqxChlFqBBy7UgqEx8 shprH+IhfbxYXsdr7w50rjM+lFZgRs2ErB8Q7Zp/iVivGc0YbyzqYSoYuIgwMD1BL31d /yyg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org> List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org> X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.53.161 with SMTP id c1mr22630268igp.95.1356651495136; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.32.195 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 15:38:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <420952.15724.bm@smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <50CB1942.3020900@gmail.com> <20121216171043.71084070@khamul.example.com> <CAG2nJkNDLDp2hkz34XXEen4SO1_Mm18G8NNDMZK6tqDr+ddWtA@mail.gmail.com> <20121217104621.735bf43a@khamul.example.com> <CA+czFiD+Yv_PXctATd6EYws8kpqb3WFesLZU47jMN5ZJmy3oww@mail.gmail.com> <20121218163332.7956f31a@khamul.example.com> <87txrd6pb3.fsf@ist.utl.pt> <20121223182037.1553813f@khamul.example.com> <87bodk7lb6.fsf@ist.utl.pt> <20121224085528.56f535ec@khamul.example.com> <50D85167.9060309@gmail.com> <20121224204817.335033c6@khamul.example.com> <CAA2qdGW+qyofuA-xyAiP4dpb6Ay5DUwYm=PJ8JXD_f2gFgf98w@mail.gmail.com> <50D957F0.1060406@gmail.com> <CADPrc80d4ArycTCg8uNTExUp6zoky1x3sNEgrR8j9XxrmOJiMw@mail.gmail.com> <20121226221950.04342909@kc-sys.chadwicks.me.uk> <CADPrc80mdBW5_1e2e8Vnw-jWQ_x=c1e7YVMFnde13rX_d+qZaw@mail.gmail.com> <CA+czFiAxkKEDs-cAoXPKo0w_2Z4M++RrUZ+oGAvsxZqXb-3m9Q@mail.gmail.com> <CADPrc82Dz6ZJAEWdr8s7awA7jV073X=-MFaNnvcSLga7aov_uQ@mail.gmail.com> <420952.15724.bm@smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 17:38:15 -0600 Message-ID: <CADPrc83U_DugDcPepbP3A7JHOyf0WzL7DL21E_vzU24=1x_2YA@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Anyone switched to eudev yet? -> what was wron with SysVInit? From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= <caneko@gmail.com> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: ddffeffd-f5b8-45f6-8733-fadeeba13574 X-Archives-Hash: e3f645ebd11b7b50387c5c6d103a4f3c On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Kevin Chadwick <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wr= ote: >> * Finally, and what I think is the most fundamental difference between >> systemd and almost any other init system: The service unit files in >> systemd are *declarative*; you tell the daemon *what* to do, not *how* >> to do it. If the service files are shell scripts (like in >> OpenRC/SysV), everything can spiral out of control really easily. And >> it usually does (again, look at sshd; and that one is actully nicely >> written, there are all kind of monsters out there abusing the power >> that shell gives you). >> > >> Then Kevin started to suggest that I know nothing about init systems, >> and I responded in kind. > > I did not and apologise if you took offense. Apology accepted, and I also apologise if my response was out of line/with bad tone. > I said perhaps badly that > based on this posting, you don't have a great deal of experience in > init systems. Well, I haven't wrote any, but I used the ones in OpenBSD, Solaris, Linux SysV, OpenRC systemd, and Windows NT. Used as in administering several machines with them. So, I have some experience. > To me, your comment demonstrated that you don't on the > vast plethora of init systems which all actually accomplish the same > thing daemon wise just with varying reliability and functionality > surrounding the process of doing so. No init system can tell a daemon > how to do anything. You are wrong. In SysV, I can *write* the daemon in the init script. In *that* sense, the init system tells the daemon how to do things, and to a lesser degree, it happens when you use a shell to launch daemons. > So your comment. > > What to do, how to do actually has nothing to do with systemd. > > What does is having to learn a new more restrictive non > intuitive and non externally useful or non universal *declarative* > language. Like polkit/pkexecs javascript vs sudo. I will take sudoers > every time and for good reason. I'm not 100% happy with Polkit use of JS, but having finally understood how it works, I think is kind of nice. I believe role verification and authentication is one of the tasks where a Turing-complete language actually be justified. > "Shell scripts usually spiral out of control" is just utter FUD. I > do realise you didn't originate this FUD, but it shouldn't be > spread. Yes some corner case wants in init that some thought > impossible in shell can get complex by scripting them but a small c > tool following the unix philosophy simply becomes a shell command > potentially useful in even unforeseeable cases. Funny that you said that; if you are really interested, take a look at /usr/lib/systemd in a systemd machine. Almost all of those are really simple C programs that do one thing, and one thing only. Most of them don't reach the 100 lines of C code. To me, a Turing-complete language for starting and stoping services is overkill. And also there is the Halting Problem; you simply cannot workaround that. > We are dealing with simple options meant for admins here. As I said > OpenBSDs scripts are usually rediculously simple and should often > really be called commands. As others have said the argument of function > being in the scripts rather than the daemon is an irrelevance to using > systemd. Systemd may try to become the whole OS but I'm fairly sure it > hasn't plagiarised the c code to check and deal with ssh keys yet. That > is rightly the job of the aptly named ssh-keygen and IMO some very > simple shell code. Yeah, running from the install script/Makefile/post-inst-hook/whatever. Not the init system. IMO. > The arch sshd script is only 44 lines and includes more than that to > make the output colourful. The gentoo sshd script is actually simple > too and doesn't do anything most of the time and is easily modifiable > in absolutely predictable ways. I'm not arguing that; I'm arguing that it can be done even more simple, and even more easily modifiable. But like a said to Pandou; let's just agree to disagree. Regards. --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico