From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCC0138BF3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:47:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E6078E0BAD; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:47:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f67.google.com (mail-la0-f67.google.com [209.85.215.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3832E0B7D for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:47:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f67.google.com with SMTP id pv20so3222928lab.10 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s9T+l/b02GZCwyb93mWrv3Le8D0hhlJfjOq8OwSPVVY=; b=WiqqNLkI7SfWx/3sY2TVdlUZXR9582WE2SYlWcgkyoAt/ZYOSgLU8z5gFqLqZeLFov IKTKin6FQ1WuYldXYDoboSFiaeViOQmk9Uec0bfzfXzObZhsqneYQTTTfaoczhr0/kCV BUlqGMq6sefwGdsMzvyGdIUcMIRlT5f6BkpaPHvuZ6MXck3iG6fpN+KOmRYNP8vVWoew IA582Y0L66NUSe1zSHR2v8Jj4w9MDx1S/Yay4kI/FgEtQ4Mty7TMBBCJCWvz0+Yhqv52 8YmpaTcH5T2xfa0zH0YjtiA9aA9Cvp2BqAUXXgaq3Ce5e9HJ6RcwGJQgXSoYoAj7Kacl BfkA== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.87.228 with SMTP id bb4mr11179926lab.15.1392497246009; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.170.67 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:47:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52FFCF5A.9070302@sporkbox.us> References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <52FFCF5A.9070302@sporkbox.us> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:47:25 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: f9b90a7c-c807-4f1b-8dd2-fb303697fb6f X-Archives-Hash: 75ccb4e7f31a38387f18a9fb4bcce22b On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote: > On 02/15/2014 02:32 PM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Mick wrote: >>> On Saturday 15 Feb 2014 17:32:44 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >>>> On Feb 15, 2014 11:02 AM, "Tanstaafl" wrot= e: >>>>> On 2014-02-15 10:16 AM, Tanstaafl wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Not to revive a flame-fest against systemd, but... >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure some or most of you have already heard about this, but I fo= und >>>>>> a really decent thread discussing this whole systemd thing. It is on= ly >>>>>> really comparing systemd and upstart, as that was the debate going o= n in >>>>>> the debian TC, but it is a great read, and has actually made me reth= ink >>>>>> my blind objections to systemd a bit. >>>>> >>>>> One of which was logging: >>>>> >>>>> "20. Myth: systemd makes it impossible to run syslog. >>>>> >>>>> Not true, we carefully made sure when we introduced the journal that = all >>>> >>>> data is also passed on to any syslog daemon running. In fact, if somet= hing >>>> changed, then only that syslog gets more complete data now than it got >>>> before, since we now cover early boot stuff as well as STDOUT/STDERR o= f any >>>> system service." >>>> >>>>> From: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html >>>> >>>> Also, for those of you who don't follow Linux-related news, Ubuntu wil= l >>>> also change to systemd in the future: >>>> >>>> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316 >>>> >>>> And I *heard* that Slackware was also discussing the possibility, but = since >>>> I don't follow Slackware at all, I don't know for sure. >>>> >>>> Anyway, distros not using systemd, and that they are not really small >>>> and/or niche, seem to be disappearing. The discussion that Tanstaafl p= osted >>>> is interesting since the arguments used by the four TC members are rea= lly >>>> focused on the technical merits of the proposed init systems. >>> >>> There was a thread sometime last year mentioning a slimmer/slicker and = obeying >>> to the *nix design principles initialisation system, but can't find it = at the >>> moment. Isn't that at all in the running? >> >> For Slackware, I have no idea. For Debian, no the only options were[1]: >> >> 1. sysvinit (status quo) >> 2. systemd >> 3. upstart >> 4. openrc (experimental) >> 5. One system on Linux, something else on non-linux >> 6. multiple >> >> It should also be noted that no one in the TC voted OpenRC above >> systemd AND upstart, and that while a couple voted systemd below >> everything else, it can be argued that it was a tactical vote. >> >> Regards. >> >> [1] https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/ >> > > Why didn't they consider runit? It has parallel execution of daemons and > is backwards compatible with sysv. It has a few other mini-features as > well, iirc. I used for a little while before Arch pushed systemd on > their community and it was interesting. Because nobody proposed it? And almost no one is using it? Which means; no high availability upstream, no momentum, and a small community, which translates in few real-live systems using it in production, and few testers and possible contributors... Besides, systemd and upstart are backwars compatible with sysv, and, well, nobody does parallel execution of daemons better than systemd, AFAICT. So, what advantages would runit bring to the table? Even OpenRC, now that it has (apparently) proper parallel execution support, would be a better choice. But you can read the discussion directly in [1], and see the different proposals in [2]. The discussion got nasty at some points, but I believe in general it was a very civil and intelligent debate. And the social/political "problems" you mentioned in your last mail were addressed as well. "Problems" in quotes because there are many of us who don't think they are problems at all, if they even exist. Regards. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/threads.html [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/ --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico