From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11CC138E66 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:26:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F8ADE09FD; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:26:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f47.google.com (mail-la0-f47.google.com [209.85.215.47]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2FD9E0919 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id y1so2912211lam.6 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:26:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N17nLo1Gx5/DPMR3lnwzFnwSUMaWyvTjxiBAGoDkFFI=; b=t1lwvKw8b40klAK8v4HesEcHkQZ0UEqSPV6HI8JRmg7htmuFKtkmY5igUWelD7rGHp 3wRUxEj89qA25IrtaxsrAj/oYVKSyfVuh3xkJvZJXOLakakWd7AIlM+MEJyNvyohJfxE DjcxDhUUlQV33E0EaAabwjITVGnuSW7030mEE8beXQ0qN7LV35xMYL74wVOm0W4NiQws Zz0dW64ZABbJoGG3a2Ltvgh+HCcCZg1FPGdkvA4nIW5YJP5scPZ6S10HryvoUjBrLWW1 bX8lldQ/RILd8Y4XszYLA9Rc/09W0VGiDclWZRyOCb+uW2a9Zi7O+Xf1m9CRtp26KpF4 5Qeg== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.166.68 with SMTP id ze4mr354527lbb.58.1393345565151; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.170.67 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Feb 2014 08:26:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <530C9392.6000205@gmail.com> References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <201402232312.18683.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <201402242054.31561.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <530C8F2F.3000502@libertytrek.org> <530C9392.6000205@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 10:26:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Gentoo+Gnome requires systemd, but Gnome itself does not? Why? - WAS: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 50958833-2cee-4cdf-acb3-bd412bee0915 X-Archives-Hash: bbd65e744a3d2184d1d1244a92a26029 On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Alan McKinnon wr= ote: > On 25/02/2014 14:40, Tanstaafl wrote: >> On 2014-02-24 4:48 PM, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s = wrote: >>> In Gentoo you need systemd, but that's a decision from the Gentoo >>> maintainers. They do the job, they make the choices. >> >> Interesting. Now I have to spin off a new thread as to why this decision >> was made if it isn't forced by GNOME itself... > > Gnome uses logind, Canek has consistently stated that for months now. That is true; but no one have to trust me on anything. The code is out there ([1], [2]); anyone can go and check what dependencies GNOME exactly require. > logind is part of systemd (AIUI it's more "bundled" than "a chunk of a > monolothic lump") and replaces consolekit. I'm not so sure about this anymore. It seems that logind actually uses many of systemd features, and therefore is really difficult to implement independently of it. For a high overview discussion of this, you can check [3], where Ryan Lortie says: """ Some interfaces provided by systemd are less awesome. Even at the D-Bus level, the interface for PID 1 or logind are so complicated and implementation-specific that they could never be reasonably independently implemented. These interfaces often mix multiple functionality sets into one: for the logind case, for example, only a small subset of this is ever required by a desktop environment running as a normal user. Many other calls on the same interface are only called by other operating system components. """ Ubuntu has been (and supposedly, still is) interested in having a non-systemd replacement; but AFAIK, they don't have it yet. For systemd <=3D 204 the code of logind was more independent of systemd features, so they just cut it from there; after 205 (when the new slices thingies were added to deal with the future cgroups API from the kernel), this is no longer possible, so they need to actually write an API compatible replacement. This hasn't come to fruition (and because of the above quote, this doesn't look easy). Perhaps a compromise could be reached where the desktop-necessary parts of logind are isolated in their own dbus API. As with everything, however, somebody should do that job. > The feature set of logind can be implemented in something else. Or, that > functionality in previous Gnome versions forward-ported to 3.10 to be > able to drop logind as a dep. In this case, the "something else" is ConsoleKit, which (AFAIK) works in the *BSD. > OpenBSD would have had little choice in this as systemd doesn't run on > OpenBSD - systemd uses many features unique to the Linux kernel. So they > would have had to do *something* about logind. Whatever they did, it > would have been a non-trivial amount of work. I don't think so; the source code I linked says (literally): if test x$enable_systemd =3D xyes; then [ snip ] session_tracking=3D"systemd (with fallback to ConsoleKit)" else session_tracking=3DConsoleKit fi So, it could be that is actually "trivial". The real problem is that most GNOME developers don't use the ConsoleKit code paths anymore, so the burden of works goes to the people that don't have systemd (*BSD). > I suspect the Gentoo Gnome maintainers were not prepared to, or don't > have the manpower, to do the same on Gentoo so took the easier route of > depending on systemd. Most of them don't use OpenRC anymore, so they could perhaps see that the code emerges without errors, but they would not be able to actually test it. They rather decided to support what they could test, than to give the appearance of "choice" when no one is really supporting the CK code paths. (Also, it seems undeniable that logind works so much better than CK ever di= d). Regards. [1] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gdm/tree/configure.ac#n882 [2] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-session/tree/configure.ac#n123 [3] http://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2014/02/19/on-portability/ --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico