From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RiXML-0004ys-IT for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:22:53 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A91321C021; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:22:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pz0-f53.google.com (mail-pz0-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B3721C021 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 20:21:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dady9 with SMTP id y9so18145999dad.40 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:21:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2HI1yeKbe7lpGyWP8tHZ6qAtSGQw5sf0opkXzM4Mlp8=; b=j6OgRhBP6sZAav9CGHk/UkEls/20bUl2/CdA+T44e/qerKaWm9s0gXuWQBKyy8aDik vH9kP7er5RhqAcCoGfGpqviQ+yDl5THdaUAj7IVvJotTXd0eX5aOViu3WyEog0hV8OJr 8z948a/HkF2ikuvU5oB04x3a8a0CmuNoQcKYo= Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.74.132 with SMTP id t4mr144781550pbv.22.1325708494837; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 12:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.19.69 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:21:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20111115062115.GA3262@waltdnes.org> <20111121104724.GC7461@waltdnes.org> <20111201194544.GD4455@waltdnes.org> <20120103100445.GD1961@waltdnes.org> <20120103123209.GB2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103131346.GC2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103143120.GF2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103221555.22c778a3@digimed.co.uk> <4F038C23.5030708@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:21:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Beta test Gentoo with mdev instead of udev; version 3 From: =?UTF-8?B?Q2FuZWsgUGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: f8a8ebe0-7fcf-4c42-a43f-cf066b7409d6 X-Archives-Hash: 0f4f31df15fdd4c448b6cd350a2d7624 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Pandu Poluan wrote: > > On Jan 4, 2012 6:19 AM, "Dale" wrote: >> >> Neil Bothwick wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 15:31:20 +0100, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: >>> >>>> I know. It's the "I want to get the rid of initramfs" thing that looks >>>> crazy to me. >>> >>> No one is saying they want to get rid of the initramfs, because they ar= e >>> not using one. What people object to is being forced to start using one= . >>> >>> >> >> You got that right. =C2=A0I have not used one since I started using Gent= oo. >> =C2=A0Now, I may very well have to start. =C2=A0I hope mdev gets to a po= int where it >> works really well on desktop systems. >> > > You were there in the thread linked by Walt, udev is just one of several > packages maintained by RH people that *demands* /usr to be mounted during > boot. > > And the RH devels insistence to deprecate /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin... > > I'm getting depressed. One battle might be won (mdev vs udev), but there'= s > still a war against the RH braindeadness... I'm sorry to tell you this, but (as admirable as it could be), the mdev hack to use it instead of udev is not a "victory". We are not at war, in the first place; and in the second place, the mdev hack would be used by a handful of guys bent on refusing a change that, like it or not, would in the end come. Like Gentoo on FreeBSD, it would be a nice hack, maybe even worthy of applause, but in the end irrelevant: a toy. A cute, entertaining (and, in a few cases, useful) toy. But a toy nonetheless. The heavy development will continue to happen in udev, and the devices that will dominate in the future (touchscreens, bluetooth input and audio devices, hardware that has a highly dynamic change rate) will only be supported by udev. The mdev hack will be useful maybe to only some guys, and even then udev would be able to do the same (and more). The use of an initramfs (or, alternatively, having /usr in the same partition as /), and maybe the move of /bin to /usr/bin and /lib to /usr/lib will be made, and in the future most of the interesting software will simply assume that this is how a system works. Maybe we will even stop to use the ridiculous short directory names from the stone age, and we will start using sensible names: /usr -> /System /etc -> /Config /var -> /Variable I feel a deep respect for the people working on making mdev a "replacement" of udev; it is not an easy task (even if it only works for a really small subset of the use cases udev covers), and something that I certainly would never do. But their hack (as beautiful as it may be) will never be used by the majority of Linux users, and probably not even by the majority of Gentoo users (if my interpretation of the discussion on gentoo-dev is correct). And with the pass of time it will be harder and harder to keep the hack working with new hardware, new software, and new use cases. But, hey, this is FOSS; you guys go nuts hacking in whatever feature (or anti-feature) you like. As in the case of this mdev hack, it may even be included in the Gentoo ebuilds. Just don't expect it to be supported forever, don't expect it to support general-purpose setups, and certainly don't call it "a victory". It's just the same history as always: the people writing the code are the ones calling the shots. Regards. --=20 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingenier=C3=ADa de la Computaci=C3=B3n Universidad Nacional Aut=C3=B3noma de M=C3=A9xico