[gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

Hi Gentoo-users,

after the last update I noticed that "emerge --depclean" removed
virtual/mta, mail-mta/ssmtp und net-mail/mailbase.

Does it mean mailer is no more part of system? I hope devs know
what they are doing. I always thought every *nix system must have
mailer. But now, there is not even /var/spool/mail on my Gentoo.
That's strange...

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 09/06/2013 11:01 AM, Jarry wrote:
> Hi Gentoo-users,
> 
> after the last update I noticed that "emerge --depclean" removed
> virtual/mta, mail-mta/ssmtp und net-mail/mailbase.
> 
> Does it mean mailer is no more part of system? I hope devs know
> what they are doing. I always thought every *nix system must have
> mailer. But now, there is not even /var/spool/mail on my Gentoo.
> That's strange...

It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
it in.

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

On 06-Sep-13 17:13, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 09/06/2013 11:01 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>
>> after the last update I noticed that "emerge --depclean" removed
>> virtual/mta, mail-mta/ssmtp und net-mail/mailbase.
>>
>> Does it mean mailer is no more part of system? I hope devs know
>> what they are doing. I always thought every *nix system must have
>> mailer. But now, there is not even /var/spool/mail on my Gentoo.
>> That's strange...
>
> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
> it in.

No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
"emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".

As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
linux-header updated. Nothing else.

After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
packages were suddenly removed...

Jarry

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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>
>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>> it in.
> 
> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
> 
> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
> 
> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
> packages were suddenly removed...
> 

It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>
>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>> it in.
>>
>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>
>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>
>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>
>
> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>
> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log

Then something got broken because I have packages installed
that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
"mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...

So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
this change was premature...

Jarry

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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>
>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>>> it in.
>>>
>>>
>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>
>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>
>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>
>>
>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>>
>>
>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>
>
> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>
> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
> this change was premature...

I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>>>> it in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>
>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>
>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>
>>
>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>
>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>> this change was premature...
>
> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.

The change happened in the cron eclass:

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/eclass/cron.eclass?r1=1.15&r2=1.16

From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
follow, leaving mta support optional."

The rationale (I suppose) is that the programs in question still work,
just the sending of emails fails.

Good riddance, if you ask me. If you need/want an MTA, just install
ssmtp by hand.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>>>> it in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>
>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>
>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>
>>
>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>
>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>> this change was premature...
>
> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.

That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
as cron can be configured to send emails too.

As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
*nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
be fixed to include mailer as dependency.

Jarry


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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Philip Webb]

130906 Jarry wrote:
> after the last update I noticed that "emerge --depclean" removed
> virtual/mta, mail-mta/ssmtp und net-mail/mailbase.

From my home-made list of installed pkgs I have :

  W 130420 mail-client/mutt-1.5.21-r12 [ USE ]
  W 120918 mail-filter/procmail-3.22-r10
    120909 mail-mta/ssmtp-2.64-r2 [for procmail vixie-cron : USE ]
  W 130727 net-mail/fetchmail-6.3.26-r1
    130120 net-mail/mailbase-1.1 [for vixie-cron ssmtp]
    130216 virtual/mta-1 [for vixie-cron gnupg procmail]

The use flags I used are :

  mail-client/mutt USE=smtp
  mail-mta/ssmtp USE=mta

So you need to remerge  procmail vixie-cron mutt  or equivalents.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>
>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>
>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>> yourself:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>
>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>> this change was premature...
>>
>>
>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>
>
> That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
> revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
> as cron can be configured to send emails too.

Read my last mail; they changed the RDEPEND for the cron eclass.

> As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
> *nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
> be fixed to include mailer as dependency.

The devs disagree. I think I'm with them; the packages in question
actually work, it just happens that they can't send mails anymore. If
you need/want them to send mails, install an MTA.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

On 06-Sep-13 18:29, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>>> yourself:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>
>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>> this change was premature...
>>>
>>>
>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>
>>
>> That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
>> revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
>> as cron can be configured to send emails too.
>
> Read my last mail; they changed the RDEPEND for the cron eclass.
>
>> As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
>> *nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
>> be fixed to include mailer as dependency.
>
> The devs disagree. I think I'm with them; the packages in question
> actually work, it just happens that they can't send mails anymore. If
> you need/want them to send mails, install an MTA.
>

"Just" can't send mails. So if mdadm detects failed drive in raid1
and I do not get mail about it, I will discover it at least when
the 2nd drive fails. That's a relief...

Why is there no global use-variable "mta"? Why not even local
for packages that might use mailer? This goes completely against
Gentoo-principles, if user has to search which other packages are
required and install them manually. Is it not what we have
use-flags for?

Jarry
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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06-Sep-13 18:29, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>>>> yourself:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>>
>>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>>> this change was premature...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
>>> revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
>>> as cron can be configured to send emails too.
>>
>>
>> Read my last mail; they changed the RDEPEND for the cron eclass.
>>
>>> As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
>>> *nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
>>> be fixed to include mailer as dependency.
>>
>>
>> The devs disagree. I think I'm with them; the packages in question
>> actually work, it just happens that they can't send mails anymore. If
>> you need/want them to send mails, install an MTA.
>>
>
> "Just" can't send mails. So if mdadm detects failed drive in raid1
> and I do not get mail about it, I will discover it at least when
> the 2nd drive fails. That's a relief...

I believe we can trust Gentoo users to know when they have (or not) an MTA.

> Why is there no global use-variable "mta"? Why not even local
> for packages that might use mailer? This goes completely against
> Gentoo-principles, if user has to search which other packages are
> required and install them manually. Is it not what we have
> use-flags for?

The problem with USE flags is that they trigger a recompile when they
change. In this case a recompile is completely unnecessary, since the
package *works* with and without an MTA. As I said, the only
difference is that you can (or not) send mails.

I don't see a problem with that; if you need an MTA, install an MTA.
If you think is a problem, file a bug.

But I think it will be closed as WONTFIX.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Michael Hampicke]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3092 bytes --]

Am 06.09.2013 18:45, schrieb Jarry:
> On 06-Sep-13 18:29, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>>>> yourself:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>>
>>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>>> this change was premature...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
>>> revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
>>> as cron can be configured to send emails too.
>>
>> Read my last mail; they changed the RDEPEND for the cron eclass.
>>
>>> As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
>>> *nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
>>> be fixed to include mailer as dependency.
>>
>> The devs disagree. I think I'm with them; the packages in question
>> actually work, it just happens that they can't send mails anymore. If
>> you need/want them to send mails, install an MTA.
>>
> 
> "Just" can't send mails. So if mdadm detects failed drive in raid1
> and I do not get mail about it, I will discover it at least when
> the 2nd drive fails. That's a relief...
> 
If you wan't to get mails from mdadm install an an MTA. Is that so hard
to understand?


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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Alan McKinnon]

On 06/09/2013 18:21, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>
>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>
>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>
>>>
>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>
>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>> this change was premature...
>>
>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
> 
> The change happened in the cron eclass:
> 
> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/eclass/cron.eclass?r1=1.15&r2=1.16
> 
> From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
> removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
> changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
> follow, leaving mta support optional."
> 
> The rationale (I suppose) is that the programs in question still work,
> just the sending of emails fails.
> 
> Good riddance, if you ask me. If you need/want an MTA, just install
> ssmtp by hand.


Agreed. It's a bit daft relying on a cron daemon to be the only package
pulling in a mailer. One can't even argue that it makes sense as a
default - cron merely has this feature to notify the root user if a cron
job wrote something to STDOUT.

That's a notification. It is not an absolute need to have sendmail.

If you want a syslogger, install a syslogger.
If you want a print server, install a print server.
Likewise, if you want a mailer, install one.

The days of classic Unix servers representing what a Gentoo system
should be are looooong gone.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Alan McKinnon]

On 06/09/2013 18:45, Jarry wrote:
> On 06-Sep-13 18:29, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06-Sep-13 18:14, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>>>> yourself:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>>
>>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>>> this change was premature...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is strange. I have sys-process/vixie-cron-4.1-r12 and yet
>>> revdep-rebuild does not want to pull virtual/mta. But It should,
>>> as cron can be configured to send emails too.
>>
>> Read my last mail; they changed the RDEPEND for the cron eclass.
>>
>>> As I wrote: there are *many* packages that expect standard
>>> *nix mailer exists! If it does not, a lot of packages must
>>> be fixed to include mailer as dependency.
>>
>> The devs disagree. I think I'm with them; the packages in question
>> actually work, it just happens that they can't send mails anymore. If
>> you need/want them to send mails, install an MTA.
>>
> 
> "Just" can't send mails. So if mdadm detects failed drive in raid1
> and I do not get mail about it, I will discover it at least when
> the 2nd drive fails. That's a relief...
> 
> Why is there no global use-variable "mta"? Why not even local
> for packages that might use mailer? This goes completely against
> Gentoo-principles, if user has to search which other packages are
> required and install them manually. Is it not what we have
> use-flags for?

Relax Jarry, take a chill-pill. It's Friday and weekend is almost here.

Let me point out the mistakes you have made.

You ran emerge --depclean blindly and let it do $WHATEVER. Or, you
didn't read the output and notice it was about to nuke the mta.

You assume and hope that you will always have a mailer. You didn't check
if it really was in @system, or in the profile, or set by a USE flag.
The mta just happened to be there, and you just assumed. Turns out it's
there because the cron eclass just happened to think it was a good idea.
It changed it's mind.

cron is not part of @system either. You had to emerge it yourself, and
that just happened to bring along an mta. If you wanted sendmail or
postfix instead of ssmtp, you would have had to do that manually too.

Just emerge the mta of your choice and put it in world. Then ask for the
docs to be updated. Or, seeing as it's now a wiki, edit the docs yourself.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Jarry]

On 06-Sep-13 18:56, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 06/09/2013 18:21, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that pulled
>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for yourself:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>
>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>> this change was premature...
>>>
>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>
>> The change happened in the cron eclass:
>>
>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/eclass/cron.eclass?r1=1.15&r2=1.16
>>
>>  From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
>> removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
>> changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
>> follow, leaving mta support optional."
>>
>> The rationale (I suppose) is that the programs in question still work,
>> just the sending of emails fails.
>>
>> Good riddance, if you ask me. If you need/want an MTA, just install
>> ssmtp by hand.
>
>
> Agreed. It's a bit daft relying on a cron daemon to be the only package
> pulling in a mailer. One can't even argue that it makes sense as a
> default - cron merely has this feature to notify the root user if a cron
> job wrote something to STDOUT.
>
> That's a notification. It is not an absolute need to have sendmail.
>
> If you want a syslogger, install a syslogger.
> If you want a print server, install a print server.
> Likewise, if you want a mailer, install one.

If I want syslog-support, I add "syslog" to USE.
If I want ssl-support, I add "ssl" to USE.
If I want perl-support, I add "perl" to USE.
If I want mta-support, I add... wait, no! I can not add "mta"
to USE, I have to install mta manually...

Got the picture now?

Jarry
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists!
Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[gevisz]

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2013/9/6 Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com>

> On 06-Sep-13 18:56, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> On 06/09/2013 18:21, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Jarry <mr.jarry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06-Sep-13 17:32, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/06/2013 11:23 AM, Jarry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't part of @system before, you just removed the thing that
>>>>>>>> pulled
>>>>>>>> it in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No I did not. mail-mta/ssmtp was part of stage3. And I did not
>>>>>>> remove now any "thing" that pulled it in. All I did was
>>>>>>> "emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse world".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result, python-exec, python-argparse and libxml2 were
>>>>>>> reinstalled and automake-wrapper, gtk-doc-am, eselect and
>>>>>>> linux-header updated. Nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After that I did "emerge --depclean" and the above mentioned
>>>>>>> packages were suddenly removed...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that a package's deps were updated to no longer include
>>>>>> virtual/mta. But it was never part of @system, you can check for
>>>>>> yourself:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-**bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/**
>>>>>> profiles/base/packages?view=**log<http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/packages?view=log>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then something got broken because I have packages installed
>>>>> that need mailer (i.e. app-admin/monit or sys-fs/mdadm are
>>>>> configured to send emails). And these packages do not have
>>>>> "mail" use-flag, because their maintainers apparently expect
>>>>> standard *nix mailer (/usr/bin/sendmail) exists on the system...
>>>>>
>>>>> So now I have "stable" system, updated to the latest level,
>>>>> where a lot of things suddenly do not work. This should *never*
>>>>> happen! If it was some package's dep that caused it, it's clear
>>>>> this change was premature...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think is a bug in the packages. In my system the only package that
>>>> pulls vitual/mta (and therefore ssmtp) is vixie-cron.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The change happened in the cron eclass:
>>>
>>> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-**bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/**
>>> eclass/cron.eclass?r1=1.15&r2=**1.16<http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/eclass/cron.eclass?r1=1.15&r2=1.16>
>>>
>>>  From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
>>> removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
>>> changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
>>> follow, leaving mta support optional."
>>>
>>> The rationale (I suppose) is that the programs in question still work,
>>> just the sending of emails fails.
>>>
>>> Good riddance, if you ask me. If you need/want an MTA, just install
>>> ssmtp by hand.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed. It's a bit daft relying on a cron daemon to be the only package
>> pulling in a mailer. One can't even argue that it makes sense as a
>> default - cron merely has this feature to notify the root user if a cron
>> job wrote something to STDOUT.
>>
>> That's a notification. It is not an absolute need to have sendmail.
>>
>> If you want a syslogger, install a syslogger.
>> If you want a print server, install a print server.
>> Likewise, if you want a mailer, install one.
>>
>
> If I want syslog-support, I add "syslog" to USE.
> If I want ssl-support, I add "ssl" to USE.
> If I want perl-support, I add "perl" to USE.
> If I want mta-support, I add... wait, no! I can not add "mta"
> to USE, I have to install mta manually...
>
> Got the picture now?


The gnome USE does not install Gnome for you.

Sorry for that.


>
>
> Jarry
> --
> ______________________________**______________________________**___
> This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists!
> Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Pavel Volkov]

On Friday 06 September 2013 11:21:33 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
> removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
> changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
> follow, leaving mta support optional."

Unrelated question: what happened (or going to happen) to packaged.provided? 
I'm using it.

Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Sat, 07 Sep 2013 11:08:16 +0400
schrieb Pavel Volkov <negaipub@gmail.com>:

> On Friday 06 September 2013 11:21:33 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
> > removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
> > changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
> > follow, leaving mta support optional."
> 
> Unrelated question: what happened (or going to happen) to packaged.provided? 
> I'm using it.

I suspect nothing.  I interpreted that statement to mean that they wanted to
remove the need for people *who don't want an MTA* to (ab)use package.provided
as a way to avoid installing one.

-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] No mailer for Gentoo???

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Pavel Volkov <negaipub@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 06 September 2013 11:21:33 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> From the commit log: "Per extensive discussion with zmedico about
>> removing the need for package.provided, several packages have been
>> changed, like sudo, to not explicitly require an mta. Cron will
>> follow, leaving mta support optional."
>
> Unrelated question: what happened (or going to happen) to packaged.provided?
> I'm using it.

I think they mean that you would not need to use packaged.provided to
get rid of an MTA.

Regards
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México