[gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Daniel Wagener]

Hello,

I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…

My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)

Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.

tl;dr:
My network is broken since 3.8.0.

So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.

My question now is:
Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
Myself, because I missed what I described above?
The devs of the r8169?
Linus & co for breaking things?
Myself bcause I forgot something else?
Realtek?
Or someone completely different?

-- 

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>
> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
> Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
> That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
> So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>
> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.
>
> tl;dr:
> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>
> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
> For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
> Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.
>
> My question now is:
> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
> Myself, because I missed what I described above?
> The devs of the r8169?
> Linus & co for breaking things?
> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> Realtek?
> Or someone completely different?

Mmmh. What sources do you use? In vanilla-sources-3.8.2, there is a
r8169 driver:

./drivers/net/ethernet/realtek/r8169.c

config R8169
        tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"

         Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit Ethernet adapter.

          To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the module
          will be called r8169.  This is recommended.

What is more, I'm using that driver. It works without a problem. Do
you use a different driver with the same name?

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Daniel Wagener]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:36:55 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
> >
> > My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
> > Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
> > That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
> > So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
> >
> > Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.
> >
> > tl;dr:
> > My network is broken since 3.8.0.
> >
> > So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
> > For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
> > Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.
> >
> > My question now is:
> > Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
> > A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
> > Myself, because I missed what I described above?
> > The devs of the r8169?
> > Linus & co for breaking things?
> > Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> > Realtek?
> > Or someone completely different?
> 
> Mmmh. What sources do you use? In vanilla-sources-3.8.2, there is a
> r8169 driver:
> 
> ./drivers/net/ethernet/realtek/r8169.c
> 
> config R8169
>         tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"
> 
>          Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit Ethernet adapter.
> 
>           To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the module
>           will be called r8169.  This is recommended.
> 
> What is more, I'm using that driver. It works without a problem. Do
> you use a different driver with the same name?
> 
> Regards.


oh great, so I actually mixed it up…
the 8169 is in the Kernel yes, but what i need is the 8168

-- 

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:36:55 -0600
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>> >
>> > My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
>> > Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
>> > That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
>> > So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>> >
>> > Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.
>> >
>> > tl;dr:
>> > My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>> >
>> > So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
>> > For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
>> > Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.
>> >
>> > My question now is:
>> > Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
>> > A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
>> > Myself, because I missed what I described above?
>> > The devs of the r8169?
>> > Linus & co for breaking things?
>> > Myself bcause I forgot something else?
>> > Realtek?
>> > Or someone completely different?
>>
>> Mmmh. What sources do you use? In vanilla-sources-3.8.2, there is a
>> r8169 driver:
>>
>> ./drivers/net/ethernet/realtek/r8169.c
>>
>> config R8169
>>         tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"
>>
>>          Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit Ethernet adapter.
>>
>>           To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the module
>>           will be called r8169.  This is recommended.
>>
>> What is more, I'm using that driver. It works without a problem. Do
>> you use a different driver with the same name?
>>
>> Regards.
>
>
> oh great, so I actually mixed it up…
> the 8169 is in the Kernel yes, but what i need is the 8168

The in-kernel drive (supposedly) supports 8168:

r8169.c: RealTek 8169/8168/8101 ethernet driver.

Have you tried it recently? When drivers are in-kernel, they usually
are improved greatly between versions, perhaps it works now with your
card if it didn't before.

Otherwise, I don't know about your problem.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Daniel Wagener]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:49:02 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:36:55 -0600
> > Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Daniel Wagener <stelf@gmx.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hello,
> >> >
> >> > I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
> >> >
> >> > My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works
> >> > with the r8168 driver. Unfortunately, this driver is not in the
> >> > kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I
> >> > guess because of som patents) That worked for quite some time,
> >> > until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation
> >> > is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?" So I
> >> > did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way
> >> > drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
> >> >
> >> > Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their
> >> > code yet.
> >> >
> >> > tl;dr:
> >> > My network is broken since 3.8.0.
> >> >
> >> > So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge
> >> > --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo
> >> > 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it
> >> > working again. For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e)
> >> > card with Kernel support. Or maybe, if I find some time I will
> >> > fix the driver myself.
> >> >
> >> > My question now is:
> >> > Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen
> >> > again? A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on
> >> > emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
> >> > Myself, because I missed what I described above? The devs of the
> >> > r8169? Linus & co for breaking things?
> >> > Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> >> > Realtek?
> >> > Or someone completely different?
> >>
> >> Mmmh. What sources do you use? In vanilla-sources-3.8.2, there is a
> >> r8169 driver:
> >>
> >> ./drivers/net/ethernet/realtek/r8169.c
> >>
> >> config R8169
> >>         tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"
> >>
> >>          Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit
> >> Ethernet adapter.
> >>
> >>           To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the
> >> module will be called r8169.  This is recommended.
> >>
> >> What is more, I'm using that driver. It works without a problem. Do
> >> you use a different driver with the same name?
> >>
> >> Regards.
> >
> >
> > oh great, so I actually mixed it up…
> > the 8169 is in the Kernel yes, but what i need is the 8168
> 
> The in-kernel drive (supposedly) supports 8168:
> 
> r8169.c: RealTek 8169/8168/8101 ethernet driver.
> 
> Have you tried it recently? When drivers are in-kernel, they usually
> are improved greatly between versions, perhaps it works now with your
> card if it didn't before.
> 
> Otherwise, I don't know about your problem.
> 
> Regards.

Thanks for encouraging me, the in-kernel driver actually works.

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[gentoo-user] Re: kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 10/03/13 21:04, Daniel Wagener wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:49:02 -0600
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mmmh. What sources do you use? In vanilla-sources-3.8.2, there is a
>>>> r8169 driver:
>>>>
>>>> ./drivers/net/ethernet/realtek/r8169.c
>>>>
>>>> config R8169
>>>>          tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"
>>>>
>>>>           Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit
>>>> Ethernet adapter.
>>>>
>>>>            To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the
>>>> module will be called r8169.  This is recommended.
>>>>
>>>
>>> oh great, so I actually mixed it up…
>>> the 8169 is in the Kernel yes, but what i need is the 8168
>>
>> The in-kernel drive (supposedly) supports 8168:
>>
>> r8169.c: RealTek 8169/8168/8101 ethernet driver.
>
> Thanks for encouraging me, the in-kernel driver actually works.

Note that you also need to emerge sys-kernel/linux-firmware.  The driver 
will work without it, but the ethernet connection can hang after an hour 
or so.

You can verify whether you need to install the firmware or not by 
inspecting the kernel log:

   dmesg | grep -i firmware

This should show the kernel trying to load the firmware for your R8168 
chip but failing.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Joseph]

On 03/11/13 01:34, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
[snip]
>>>>> config R8169
>>>>>          tristate "Realtek 8169 gigabit ethernet support"
>>>>>
>>>>>           Say Y here if you have a Realtek 8169 PCI Gigabit
>>>>> Ethernet adapter.
>>>>>
>>>>>            To compile this driver as a module, choose M here: the
>>>>> module will be called r8169.  This is recommended.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> oh great, so I actually mixed it up…
>>>> the 8169 is in the Kernel yes, but what i need is the 8168
>>>
>>> The in-kernel drive (supposedly) supports 8168:
>>>
>>> r8169.c: RealTek 8169/8168/8101 ethernet driver.
>>
>> Thanks for encouraging me, the in-kernel driver actually works.
>
>Note that you also need to emerge sys-kernel/linux-firmware.  The driver
>will work without it, but the ethernet connection can hang after an hour
>or so.
>
>You can verify whether you need to install the firmware or not by
>inspecting the kernel log:
>
>   dmesg | grep -i firmware
>
>This should show the kernel trying to load the firmware for your R8168
>chip but failing.

I had my share of problems with recent kernels and Realtek 8168 so I went and bought and internal network card:
Intel Corporation 82574L Gigabit Network Connection card.

I did know that I'm suppose to install "sys-kernel/linux-firmware"
I just did (just in case) but running: dmesg | grep -i firmware

doesn't show that kernel is trying to load anything.

-- 
Joseph

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 10/03/2013 20:28, Daniel Wagener wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
> 
> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
> Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
> That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
> So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
> 
> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.
> 
> tl;dr:
> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
> 
> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
> For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
> Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.
> 
> My question now is:
> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?

yourself

> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
> Myself, because I missed what I described above?

yes, this one. The gentoo manual has many references to keeping more
than one kernel sources and working kernels around Why do you delete
previous ones before fully testing the new one?

You are not supposed to do that

> The devs of the r8169?

A polite request here would not go amiss

> Linus & co for breaking things?

Linus and the kernel devs broke nothing. Don't even think of going
there. Instead read the most famous stable_api_nonsense text file
shipped with all kernel sources

> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> Realtek?
> Or someone completely different?
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 10.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
> Hello,
>
> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>
> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works with the r8168 driver.
> Unfortunately, this driver is not in the kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess because of som patents)
> That worked for quite some time, until i thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?"
> So I did, only to find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>
> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their code yet.
>
> tl;dr:
> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>
> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it working again.
> For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card with Kernel support.
> Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the driver myself.
>
> My question now is:
> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels, something like excerpts from the changelog?
> Myself, because I missed what I described above?
> The devs of the r8169?
> Linus & co for breaking things?
> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> Realtek?
> Or someone completely different?
>
so, you are using a superfluous external driver. Despite the fact that
external drivers are prone to breaking you insist on using the latest
kernel, instead using the latest kernel of one of the stable kernel
series like 3.4. To add insult to injury you remove kernels after
installing instead of after testing.

And then you try to blame others for all the stupid stuff you did. A
simple grep would have told you that your NIC has been supported for
ages. A little bit of common sense would have prevented the rest.

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Daniel Wagener]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:53:42 +0100
Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Am 10.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
> >
> > My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works
> > with the r8168 driver. Unfortunately, this driver is not in the
> > kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess
> > because of som patents) That worked for quite some time, until i
> > thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on
> > 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?" So I did, only to
> > find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are
> > initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
> >
> > Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their
> > code yet.
> >
> > tl;dr:
> > My network is broken since 3.8.0.
> >
> > So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge
> > --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo
> > 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it
> > working again. For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card
> > with Kernel support. Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the
> > driver myself.
> >
> > My question now is:
> > Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
> > A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels,
> > something like excerpts from the changelog? Myself, because I
> > missed what I described above? The devs of the r8169?
> > Linus & co for breaking things?
> > Myself bcause I forgot something else?
> > Realtek?
> > Or someone completely different?
> >
> so, you are using a superfluous external driver. Despite the fact that
> external drivers are prone to breaking you insist on using the latest
> kernel, instead using the latest kernel of one of the stable kernel
> series like 3.4. To add insult to injury you remove kernels after
> installing instead of after testing.

well… I guess that sums it up… :(

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Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 11.03.2013 03:05, Daniel Wagener wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:53:42 +0100
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Am 10.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>>>
>>> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works
>>> with the r8168 driver. Unfortunately, this driver is not in the
>>> kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess
>>> because of som patents) That worked for quite some time, until i
>>> thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on
>>> 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?" So I did, only to
>>> find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are
>>> initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>>>
>>> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their
>>> code yet.
>>>
>>> tl;dr:
>>> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>>>
>>> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge
>>> --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo
>>> 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it
>>> working again. For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card
>>> with Kernel support. Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the
>>> driver myself.
>>>
>>> My question now is:
>>> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
>>> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels,
>>> something like excerpts from the changelog? Myself, because I
>>> missed what I described above? The devs of the r8169?
>>> Linus & co for breaking things?
>>> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
>>> Realtek?
>>> Or someone completely different?
>>>
>> so, you are using a superfluous external driver. Despite the fact that
>> external drivers are prone to breaking you insist on using the latest
>> kernel, instead using the latest kernel of one of the stable kernel
>> series like 3.4. To add insult to injury you remove kernels after
>> installing instead of after testing.
>
> well… I guess that sums it up… :(
>

sorry for breaking in, but...
(to Volker Armin Hemmann)

1. If this driver is superfluous as you say, then why does it ever exist 
in portage?

2. Since it does exist, then probably it would be much nicer to user to 
show him a notice when he (user) tries to compile it on a kernel which 
has native support for the device, or moreover an unsupported kernel 
installed, than blame user for that?

3. Why does the ebuild *not* check for supported kernel version or 
breaking APIs/ABIs?

4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru kernel 
src in search for a driver they might need, especially when the portage 
explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes kernel drivers' description 
is not quite consistent and it is not easy to figure out whether it 
supports exactly yours card/chip/device, or moreover find it by grep.

5. After all, linux and gentoo in particular are *not* 
developer-only-oriented systems, and it is up to maintainers or whomever 
to make them more user-friendly. Yes, it is not fair of a user to blame 
someone for breaking APIs etc. but neither it is fair to blame the user 
for not knowing everything as I bet nobody knows everything about linux 
kernel.

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 11.03.2013 14:00, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
> On 11.03.2013 03:05, Daniel Wagener wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:53:42 +0100
>> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 10.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>>>>
>>>> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works
>>>> with the r8168 driver. Unfortunately, this driver is not in the
>>>> kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess
>>>> because of som patents) That worked for quite some time, until i
>>>> thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on
>>>> 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?" So I did, only to
>>>> find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are
>>>> initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their
>>>> code yet.
>>>>
>>>> tl;dr:
>>>> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>>>>
>>>> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge
>>>> --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo
>>>> 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it
>>>> working again. For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card
>>>> with Kernel support. Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the
>>>> driver myself.
>>>>
>>>> My question now is:
>>>> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
>>>> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels,
>>>> something like excerpts from the changelog? Myself, because I
>>>> missed what I described above? The devs of the r8169?
>>>> Linus & co for breaking things?
>>>> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
>>>> Realtek?
>>>> Or someone completely different?
>>>>
>>> so, you are using a superfluous external driver. Despite the fact that
>>> external drivers are prone to breaking you insist on using the latest
>>> kernel, instead using the latest kernel of one of the stable kernel
>>> series like 3.4. To add insult to injury you remove kernels after
>>> installing instead of after testing.
>>
>> well… I guess that sums it up… :(
>>
>
> sorry for breaking in, but...
> (to Volker Armin Hemmann)
>
> 1. If this driver is superfluous as you say, then why does it ever
> exist in portage?

because it exists? gnome is there too. Or systemd AND openrc. mrxvt,
rxvt AND urxvt.
>
>
> 2. Since it does exist, then probably it would be much nicer to user
> to show him a notice when he (user) tries to compile it on a kernel
> which has native support for the device, or moreover an unsupported
> kernel installed, than blame user for that?

no, this is gentoo. You are supposed to do your homework. No training
wheels.

>
> 3. Why does the ebuild *not* check for supported kernel version or
> breaking APIs/ABIs?

why should it? See above. You can't know if in the future something
might change.
>
> 4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru kernel
> src in search for a driver they might need, especially when the
> portage explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes kernel drivers'
> description is not quite consistent and it is not easy to figure out
> whether it supports exactly yours card/chip/device, or moreover find
> it by grep.

All kernel source? grep? Nope. Just reading a bit of help text. Maybe
using google. Doing it once. Then you have a working setup you can use
for the rest of eternity (or the next couple of years...)

> 5. After all, linux and gentoo in particular are *not*
> developer-only-oriented systems, and it is up to maintainers or
> whomever to make them more user-friendly. Yes, it is not fair of a
> user to blame someone for breaking APIs etc. but neither it is fair to
> blame the user for not knowing everything as I bet nobody knows
> everything about linux kernel.

oh, so gentoo is for ubuntu users? Well, why not use ubuntu in the first
place?

But I feel generous right now. You might have a point there. That does
not invalidate the 'remove kernels before testing' criticism from the
list nor does it solve the 'insisting to use the latest kernel release
instead of stable series' problem.

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 11.03.2013 21:47, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 11.03.2013 14:00, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:

[ quoting stripped ]

>> sorry for breaking in, but...
>> (to Volker Armin Hemmann)
>>
>> 1. If this driver is superfluous as you say, then why does it ever
>> exist in portage?
>
> because it exists? gnome is there too. Or systemd AND openrc. mrxvt,
> rxvt AND urxvt.

well, I guess, you won't have systemd AND openrc installed together even 
if you try, that's what portage is for.
Is there any obstacle of using *rxvts together? I don't know but do not 
think it critical.
and who's going to blame you for using gnome?

>> 2. Since it does exist, then probably it would be much nicer to user
>> to show him a notice when he (user) tries to compile it on a kernel
>> which has native support for the device, or moreover an unsupported
>> kernel installed, than blame user for that?
>
> no, this is gentoo. You are supposed to do your homework. No training
> wheels.

Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself 
./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage for?

>>
>> 3. Why does the ebuild *not* check for supported kernel version or
>> breaking APIs/ABIs?
>
> why should it? See above. You can't know if in the future something
> might change.

That is a testing issue. Of course, one can never know what will change, 
or whether the code contains a bug (before one is detected), but when 
someone *does* stumble upon such issues, it is up to maintainers to 
update portage to prevent the issue... that's what portage is for, isn't it?
That said, the topic starter has run across an issue and I assume the 
action to be taken by the package maintainer is to add a test against 
kernel compatibility and eligibility of the native driver, so that in 
the future the issue not rise again. Am I right? Or do I completely 
misunderstand the purpose of portage, and everything?

>> 4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru kernel
>> src in search for a driver they might need, especially when the
>> portage explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes kernel drivers'
>> description is not quite consistent and it is not easy to figure out
>> whether it supports exactly yours card/chip/device, or moreover find
>> it by grep.
>
> All kernel source? grep? Nope. Just reading a bit of help text. Maybe
> using google. Doing it once.

As I said, there is not always good help text for kernel options.

> Then you have a working setup you can use
> for the rest of eternity (or the next couple of years...)

Okay, and when someone like the topic starter *did* have a working setup 
with the "superfluous" driver from portage, ... do you feel the logic? 
:) When should one realize that this setup is no more working? I guess, 
just after it stopped working, right? :) Of course, again, if one is 
really concerned he will check each kernel release or whatever for the 
new stuff he's concerned about, but when all *worked*, why should he?

>> 5. After all, linux and gentoo in particular are *not*
>> developer-only-oriented systems, and it is up to maintainers or
>> whomever to make them more user-friendly. Yes, it is not fair of a
>> user to blame someone for breaking APIs etc. but neither it is fair to
>> blame the user for not knowing everything as I bet nobody knows
>> everything about linux kernel.
>
> oh, so gentoo is for ubuntu users? Well, why not use ubuntu in the first
> place?

so, according to that, everyone who's striving to get 
linux/gentoo/whtever more user-friendly (including portage's key 
features) is an ubuntoid? You know, I came from FreeBSD where you're 
supposed to do much more work by hand, and after a dozen years I'm a 
little bit tired of that. I *can* do without things like portage's 
colorful output, for example (although it's helpful most of the time). 
But I really dislike things broken e.g. on `portupgrade -aR` and the 
sort and I can *not* call a system which allows that a quality system. 
That sort of user-friendliness has nothing to do with ubuntism ("we know 
better what you want") and visual beauty: that's about quality.
(I know that there's no absolute quality, but when a system tends to 
fail, and justifies that with "user not having googled or having taken a 
way we, devs, didn't ever think to go" -- it's at least incorrect if not 
arrogant.)

> But I feel generous right now. You might have a point there. That does
> not invalidate the 'remove kernels before testing' criticism from the
> list nor does it solve the 'insisting to use the latest kernel release
> instead of stable series' problem.

That's right, I was just feeling like the words you said towards the 
topic starter were a little harsh, and wanted to have him a little 
acquitted :)


-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alexander Schwarz]

Am 12.03.2013 08:33, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
>
> Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself 
> ./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage for?

Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier 
everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy 
wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.

>
> That is a testing issue. Of course, one can never know what will 
> change, or whether the code contains a bug (before one is detected), 
> but when someone *does* stumble upon such issues, it is up to 
> maintainers to update portage to prevent the issue... that's what 
> portage is for, isn't it?
> That said, the topic starter has run across an issue and I assume the 
> action to be taken by the package maintainer is to add a test against 
> kernel compatibility and eligibility of the native driver, so that in 
> the future the issue not rise again. Am I right? Or do I completely 
> misunderstand the purpose of portage, and everything?

First of all: Gentoo relies on volunteers to do work as testing. If 
something fails they CAN report it (like he did via this userlist). 
You're requesting enterprise features (everything tested to a great 
extent for every piece of hardware)? That's cool, because you can help. 
Just invest some time and help testing, everyone would be grateful.
Without those reports portage can't know. It's a tool and not a thinking 
human being, as such it's limited in many ways. How should it know that 
something will break other things if nobody tells it?

>>> 4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru kernel
>>> src in search for a driver they might need, especially when the
>>> portage explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes kernel drivers'
>>> description is not quite consistent and it is not easy to figure out
>>> whether it supports exactly yours card/chip/device, or moreover find
>>> it by grep.
>>
>> All kernel source? grep? Nope. Just reading a bit of help text. Maybe
>> using google. Doing it once.
>
> As I said, there is not always good help text for kernel options.
>

I tend to agree but then again: why even bother compiling the Linux 
kernel if it's too tedious?

>> Then you have a working setup you can use
>> for the rest of eternity (or the next couple of years...)
>
> Okay, and when someone like the topic starter *did* have a working 
> setup with the "superfluous" driver from portage, ... do you feel the 
> logic? :) When should one realize that this setup is no more working? 
> I guess, just after it stopped working, right? :) Of course, again, if 
> one is really concerned he will check each kernel release or whatever 
> for the new stuff he's concerned about, but when all *worked*, why 
> should he?
There are distributions out there who take care of *this*.  Instead of 
utilizing them you're trying to redefine Gentoo in a manner that more 
suits you. This is highly illogical, as alternatives are out there with 
the exact same thing you'd like to see.


> so, according to that, everyone who's striving to get 
> linux/gentoo/whtever more user-friendly (including portage's key 
> features) is an ubuntoid? You know, I came from FreeBSD where you're 
> supposed to do much more work by hand, and after a dozen years I'm a 
> little bit tired of that. I *can* do without things like portage's 
> colorful output, for example (although it's helpful most of the time). 
> But I really dislike things broken e.g. on `portupgrade -aR` and the 
> sort and I can *not* call a system which allows that a quality system. 
> That sort of user-friendliness has nothing to do with ubuntism ("we 
> know better what you want") and visual beauty: that's about quality.
> (I know that there's no absolute quality, but when a system tends to 
> fail, and justifies that with "user not having googled or having taken 
> a way we, devs, didn't ever think to go" -- it's at least incorrect if 
> not arrogant.)

You're mixing up Linux and distributions. Linux is a kernel, not more, 
not less. If the distribution is user friendly or not is defined for 
every single distribution.
The problem I see here: you want Gentoo to do certain things for you 
which is in direct conflict to Gentoo's principles. Gentoo really was 
never meant for the beginner, nor was it meant for the expert who just 
wants to USE things and SOMETIMES change crucial parts of the system.

In my personal opinion it's highly arrogant to download a distribution, 
seeing that you obviously don't like it (which is absolutely fine) and 
then jump on the mailing list. Patronizing everyone and telling them how 
that system should exactly change that it's acceptable in your eyes.

But, that's the whole beauty of open source: you can do things exactly 
your way by forking, helping as a dev/tester, developing your own things 
if you hate them, etc...
And before you tell me: "you want to troll me". Nope, I'm dead serious. 
Open source is all about getting involved if you want to change things.
Other certain operating systems don't even give you that choice and are 
more like: like it or leave it.

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 12:46, Alexander Schwarz wrote:
> Am 12.03.2013 08:33, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
>>
>> Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself
>> ./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage
>> for?
>
> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>  wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.

not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
is to make life harder? :)

>>
>> That is a testing issue. Of course, one can never know what will
>> change, or whether the code contains a bug (before one is
>> detected), but when someone *does* stumble upon such issues, it is
>> up to maintainers to update portage to prevent the issue... that's
>> what portage is for, isn't it? That said, the topic starter has run
>> across an issue and I assume the action to be taken by the package
>> maintainer is to add a test against kernel compatibility and
>> eligibility of the native driver, so that in the future the issue
>> not rise again. Am I right? Or do I completely misunderstand the
>> purpose of portage, and everything?
>
> First of all: Gentoo relies on volunteers to do work as testing. If
> something fails they CAN report it (like he did via this userlist).
> You're requesting enterprise features (everything tested to a great
> extent for every piece of hardware)? That's cool, because you can
> help. Just invest some time and help testing, everyone would be
> grateful. Without those reports portage can't know. It's a tool and
> not a thinking human being, as such it's limited in many ways. How
> should it know that something will break other things if nobody tells
> it?

The case in question is exactly that: the user (Daniel Wagener)
experienced an issue and reported it. He was *the* tester. He
encountered a problem. He helped. He wrote *the* report. I believe he is
to be thanked, rather than to blame. Maybe he expressed his feelings too
harshly, but it's comprehensible to an extent.

>>>> 4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru
>>>> kernel src in search for a driver they might need, especially
>>>> when the portage explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes
>>>> kernel drivers' description is not quite consistent and it is
>>>> not easy to figure out whether it supports exactly yours
>>>> card/chip/device, or moreover find it by grep.
>>>
>>> All kernel source? grep? Nope. Just reading a bit of help text.
>>> Maybe using google. Doing it once.
>>
>> As I said, there is not always good help text for kernel options.
>>
>
> I tend to agree but then again: why even bother compiling the Linux
> kernel if it's too tedious?

Not quite. The big deal is not compiling the kernel itself, but finding
out options which are applicable or conversely useless for one. And
don't say that's an easy task even for those who are familiar.
I personally am not always in mood to tinker with those new
CONFIG_SOMETHING_WHICH_NOBODY_YET_UNDERSTANDS_WHAT_IT_S_FOR_AND_IS_GONNA_BE_RENAMED_AFTER_TWENTY_EIGHT_VERSIONS
which neither kernel.org nor google can clearly explain. But then it
turns out that you need that (or need that removed) for another thingy
to work.
Probably the task of "just compiling the kernel" appears to user much
more horrible than it really is. Not counting the options...

>>> Then you have a working setup you can use for the rest of
>>> eternity (or the next couple of years...)
>>
>> Okay, and when someone like the topic starter *did* have a working
>>  setup with the "superfluous" driver from portage, ... do you feel
>> the logic? :) When should one realize that this setup is no more
>> working? I guess, just after it stopped working, right? :) Of
>> course, again, if one is really concerned he will check each kernel
>> release or whatever for the new stuff he's concerned about, but
>> when all *worked*, why should he?
> There are distributions out there who take care of *this*.  Instead
> of utilizing them you're trying to redefine Gentoo in a manner that
> more suits you. This is highly illogical, as alternatives are out
> there with the exact same thing you'd like to see.

Sorry I didn't get what you meant by *this*. All I'm trying to say is
that every software is for the user, and blaming user for software 
deficiencies is unfair. I regard the case in question as a deficiency.
Would you disagree? I can't find a basis to think the opposite, but if 
you can, I'd be interested. :)

>> so, according to that, everyone who's striving to get
>> linux/gentoo/whtever more user-friendly (including portage's key
>> features) is an ubuntoid? You know, I came from FreeBSD where
>> you're supposed to do much more work by hand, and after a dozen
>> years I'm a little bit tired of that. I *can* do without things
>> like portage's colorful output, for example (although it's helpful
>> most of the time). But I really dislike things broken e.g. on
>> `portupgrade -aR` and the sort and I can *not* call a system which
>> allows that a quality system. That sort of user-friendliness has
>> nothing to do with ubuntism ("we know better what you want") and
>> visual beauty: that's about quality. (I know that there's no
>> absolute quality, but when a system tends to fail, and justifies
>> that with "user not having googled or having taken a way we, devs,
>> didn't ever think to go" -- it's at least incorrect if not
>> arrogant.)
>
> You're mixing up Linux and distributions. Linux is a kernel, not
> more, not less. If the distribution is user friendly or not is
> defined for every single distribution. The problem I see here: you
> want Gentoo to do certain things for you which is in direct conflict
> to Gentoo's principles. Gentoo really was never meant for the
> beginner, nor was it meant for the expert who just wants to USE
> things and SOMETIMES change crucial parts of the system.

I'm mixing up as long as both linux and gentoo and other software are 
software which all serve one purpose: to solve user's tasks. And as for 
me, all principles are the consequences of this, and not the opposite.
I don't like the way of personification you resort to (including your 
opinion of what I do or want which can not be correct), but personally, 
even not being a beginner, I do not expect things to break every now and 
then. Probably that's why I'm using Gentoo: because the breakage 
probability in it (if used properly) is less than in some other distro 
which is not under one's control.
I suppose, most users don't care what for Gentoo was meant, why it fares 
the way it fares: users care for the way it suits their needs. As for 
me, saying "if this or that don't work, you guys must know that this 
distro wasn't meant for working right..." is like "you are too stupid to 
use it" or even more humiliating.

> In my personal opinion it's highly arrogant to download a
> distribution, seeing that you obviously don't like it (which is
> absolutely fine) and then jump on the mailing list. Patronizing
> everyone and telling them how that system should exactly change that
> it's acceptable in your eyes.

> But, that's the whole beauty of open source: you can do things
> exactly your way by forking, helping as a dev/tester, developing your
> own things if you hate them, etc... And before you tell me: "you want
> to troll me". Nope, I'm dead serious. Open source is all about
> getting involved if you want to change things. Other certain
> operating systems don't even give you that choice and are more like:
> like it or leave it.

I'm also involved. Even participating on the list and expressing my 
opinion does it.
Though in this very case, I just said (and it was really *all* I wanted 
to say), don't blame the guy for the fact which is clearly (to me) an 
issue of the package. Did I say that since there's such an issue then 
the whole gentoo is bad? :) Or that smth else is bad? No. If you still 
maintain that it was not an issue but "the way it's meant to be", it's 
your option, and I have exhausted my arguments. :)

I'm sorry for having you see things I didn't mean, and also sorry for 
starting this "personalities exchange" since I don't think that mailing 
lists are a good place for personal opinions.

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/03/2013 12:01, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
>> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
>> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>>  wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.
> 
> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
> is to make life harder? :)


You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months. The
answer never changes:

Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change anytime
soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
the world.

That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.

I think you just don't understand the group and technical dynamics that
are at work here. Gentoo is not a product, it's a tool kit. Nobody ever
claimed that drivers moving in and out of 3rd party vendor space to and
from mainline would be tracked and dealt with and documented. It is up
to the user to track that and decide what they want to use. It is the
user that must be aware of possible incompatibilities between his chosen
packages and deal with the results. A Gentoo system cannot possibly work
any other way - you built the thing using provided tools, deal with th
result of your creation.

I don't see why you are getting so upset. The OP asked a question, he
got an answer. He seems OK with it, so why are you getting offended on
his behalf?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:30:57 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
> > Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of
> > computing is to make life harder? :)  
> 
> You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months. The
> answer never changes:
> 
> Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
> like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change anytime
> soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
> that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
> the world.
> 
> That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
> though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.

On the other hand, if you file  bug report with a patch to the ebuild
that checks the running kernel version and outputs an elog message of
"you might want to try the in-kernel drivers". They may simply say "thank
you".

This is not a unique situation, there are other out of tree drivers that
give such a message, and plenty more that don't. All it needs is for
someone to take the time to fix it - rather than demanding that someone
else fixes it for them.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

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Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 14:44, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:30:57 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>>> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
>>> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of
>>> computing is to make life harder? :)
>>
>> You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months. The
>> answer never changes:
>>
>> Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
>> like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change anytime
>> soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
>> that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
>> the world.
>>
>> That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
>> though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.
>
> On the other hand, if you file  bug report with a patch to the ebuild
> that checks the running kernel version and outputs an elog message of
> "you might want to try the in-kernel drivers". They may simply say "thank
> you".

The starting point has to be someone identifying the problem.
When you come e.g. to a car service and say, 'my engine is not working 
properly e.g. ignition fails or sort of', do you expect the mechanic to 
answer, 'hell why are you coming to me? you know the problem, c'mon fix 
it yourself'? Or even more of it, 'your car is what it is, you wanna 
drive -- buy a limousine for a couple hundred grands'?
Yes, you can expect that a gentoo user is more familiar with the things 
but you can't expect everyone capable of everything.
And clearly, there are people who'd do it better than an average gentoo 
user.

> This is not a unique situation, there are other out of tree drivers that
> give such a message, and plenty more that don't. All it needs is for
> someone to take the time to fix it - rather than demanding that someone
> else fixes it for them.

Yes, that's it -- if you can't do it yourself, just inform someone who 
has the time and ability to fix it. And no profound discussions about 
what gentoo is and what it is not. Because (it's my humble opinion of 
course) he who discusses the most does the least.

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:51:23 +0400, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:

> > On the other hand, if you file  bug report with a patch to the ebuild
> > that checks the running kernel version and outputs an elog message of
> > "you might want to try the in-kernel drivers". They may simply say
> > "thank you".
> 
> The starting point has to be someone identifying the problem.

That's already been done, back in the days when this thread was still
on-topic.

> When you come e.g. to a car service and say, 'my engine is not working 
> properly e.g. ignition fails or sort of', do you expect the mechanic to 
> answer, 'hell why are you coming to me? you know the problem, c'mon fix 
> it yourself'? Or even more of it, 'your car is what it is, you wanna 
> drive -- buy a limousine for a couple hundred grands'?

That is a completely specious analogy, not least because it involves
hourly charges for fault diagnosis.

> Yes, that's it -- if you can't do it yourself, just inform someone who 
> has the time and ability to fix it.

Time and ability are insufficient, there are plenty of people with those
to spare. The important factor is motivation, with enough of that you
will make enough of the other two factors. There are plenty of people who
could fix the problem, but it is not their problem and doesn't affect
them, so they spend time on things that motivate them more. That's why
the sufferer has to do at least some of the leg work themselves, and get
the satisfaction of both having the fix and having been part of it.

There is a reason this collection of "colourful characters" is called a
community.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The cow is nothing but a machine which makes grass fit for us people to
eat.

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Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 12.03.2013 12:51, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
> On 12.03.2013 14:44, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:30:57 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>>>> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
>>>> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of
>>>> computing is to make life harder? :)
>>>
>>> You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months.
>>> The
>>> answer never changes:
>>>
>>> Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
>>> like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change
>>> anytime
>>> soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
>>> that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
>>> though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.
>>
>> On the other hand, if you file  bug report with a patch to the ebuild
>> that checks the running kernel version and outputs an elog message of
>> "you might want to try the in-kernel drivers". They may simply say
>> "thank
>> you".
>
> The starting point has to be someone identifying the problem.
> When you come e.g. to a car service and say, 'my engine is not working
> properly e.g. ignition fails or sort of', do you expect the mechanic
> to answer, 'hell why are you coming to me? you know the problem, c'mon
> fix it yourself'? 

no, because I am going to pay a shitload of money. See the difference?
Nobody is paying me to hang around on this list. A list that is full
with threads about problems that are:

occuring every odd month, so a little search would have answered the
question

obvious user errors

caused by stupid behaviour
or
easily fixable with a little bit of thinking and/or using google.

Bonus points: people being pissy if pointed out.

At some point you have three choices dealing with this:
go away, because the shit isn't worth it anymore

swallow it, show your nicest smile and go on in the hope that someday
somebody might grow up

become an asshole.

I have chosen option number three. I admit it freely. There are very few
people on this list whose opinion I really care about. Those people
earned my respect. So why staying and act like this? Because sometimes
people are ok. Sometimes there are good threads. Because some people do
see the pattern. Others realize that a bit of own research means a lot
of time saved. Their own time. Learning something. Stuff like that. Btw,
Daniel? cool reaction. I liked that.

> Or even more of it, 'your car is what it is, you wanna drive -- buy a
> limousine for a couple hundred grands'?

you are proposing that. 'Oh, this car needs manual intervention and some
thinking. Mod your car to turn it into Carbuntu! It will do everything
for you! Even driving! And breaking!*

*except in icy conditions or raining. There will be no warning.

> Yes, you can expect that a gentoo user is more familiar with the
> things but you can't expect everyone capable of everything.
> And clearly, there are people who'd do it better than an average
> gentoo user.
>
>> This is not a unique situation, there are other out of tree drivers that
>> give such a message, and plenty more that don't. All it needs is for
>> someone to take the time to fix it - rather than demanding that someone
>> else fixes it for them.
>
> Yes, that's it -- if you can't do it yourself, just inform someone who
> has the time and ability to fix it. And no profound discussions about
> what gentoo is and what it is not. Because (it's my humble opinion of
> course) he who discusses the most does the least.
>
have a look at the checks in ati or nvidia drivers, create a suitable
patch for every other driver. Not that hard. If you want to do it.

I don't. Seriously.

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 22:09, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 12.03.2013 12:51, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
>
>> The starting point has to be someone identifying the problem.
>> When you come e.g. to a car service and say, 'my engine is not working
>> properly e.g. ignition fails or sort of', do you expect the mechanic
>> to answer, 'hell why are you coming to me? you know the problem, c'mon
>> fix it yourself'?
>
> no, because I am going to pay a shitload of money. See the difference?

So what if the problem be posed like:
"You found an issue. Here's my bank account. The more you pay, the 
quicker you get it fixed"
(that is not personal, just a view)
:)

> Nobody is paying me to hang around on this list. A list that is full
> with threads about problems that are:
>
> occuring every odd month, so a little search would have answered the
> question
>
> obvious user errors
>
> caused by stupid behaviour
> or
> easily fixable with a little bit of thinking and/or using google.
>
> Bonus points: people being pissy if pointed out.

Well, you're not paid for the answers to these petty bugs, too :) I 
mean, if you think one's run into his own stupidity, you're not required 
to answer him :)

> At some point you have three choices dealing with this:
> go away, because the shit isn't worth it anymore
>
> swallow it, show your nicest smile and go on in the hope that someday
> somebody might grow up
>
> become an asshole.
 >
>
> I have chosen option number three. I admit it freely. There are very few
> people on this list whose opinion I really care about. Those people
> earned my respect. So why staying and act like this? Because sometimes
> people are ok. Sometimes there are good threads. Because some people do
> see the pattern. Others realize that a bit of own research means a lot
> of time saved. Their own time. Learning something. Stuff like that. Btw,
> Daniel? cool reaction. I liked that.

Really, I thought from the beginning that you're kinda acting :) and 
Daniel apparently realized that, too.
Why I started this talk, it was probably me not quite knowing your way 
of acting. But I never thought anything like you are a real asshole :)

>> Or even more of it, 'your car is what it is, you wanna drive -- buy a
>> limousine for a couple hundred grands'?
>
> you are proposing that. 'Oh, this car needs manual intervention and some
> thinking. Mod your car to turn it into Carbuntu! It will do everything
> for you! Even driving! And breaking!*
>
> *except in icy conditions or raining. There will be no warning.

hell, even limousines break under conditions usually viewed as 'normal'. :)
What I said was a reply to "if you want things fixed, use ubuntu"
Though I can't perceive ubuntu as a limo versus gentoo as a "bad car"; 
to me, it's rather the opposite :) but when one answers like that, 
"gentoo is what it is, go use <my_unfavorite_OS>" that sounds like I 
said. (that means, kinda pejorative towards gentoo. That's another thing 
I was trying to highlight)

>> Yes, you can expect that a gentoo user is more familiar with the
>> things but you can't expect everyone capable of everything.
>> And clearly, there are people who'd do it better than an average
>> gentoo user.
>>
>>> This is not a unique situation, there are other out of tree drivers that
>>> give such a message, and plenty more that don't. All it needs is for
>>> someone to take the time to fix it - rather than demanding that someone
>>> else fixes it for them.
>>
>> Yes, that's it -- if you can't do it yourself, just inform someone who
>> has the time and ability to fix it. And no profound discussions about
>> what gentoo is and what it is not. Because (it's my humble opinion of
>> course) he who discusses the most does the least.
>>
> have a look at the checks in ati or nvidia drivers, create a suitable
> patch for every other driver. Not that hard. If you want to do it.
>
> I don't. Seriously.

Perhaps I'll try.

Thank you for expressing your point of view, after we discussed you 
behind your back :)

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 14:30, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 12/03/2013 12:01, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
>>> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
>>> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>>>   wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.
>>
>> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
>> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
>> is to make life harder? :)
>
>
> You know, this general topic rears it's head about every six months. The
> answer never changes:
>
> Gentoo is what it is, it works a certain way for a reason. Maybe you
> like it, maybe you don't. Either way that is not going to change anytime
> soon. What you could do is pitch in and do all the same heavy lifting
> that our long-term devs have done, and be the change you want to see in
> the world.
>
> That might involve dealing with the protestations of the existing devs
> though and they will likely quote the "Gentoo is what it is" line.

So, who argues? Gentoo is what it is just like everything is.
I only don't see in that fact any reason for driving off users when they 
find issues.
One could say: oh crap, it's an issue, or more probably, "okay we note 
that and get it fixed in a couple of <our free time units>"
Instead people immediately take on the face of almighty gods, and start 
a long talk about what gentoo is, spending their own time, and others' 
time (who read it) for just saying not too meaningful, if quite 
meaningless "it is what it is" (with some perceived connotation "you 
fool it's not your business").

You think I want to change the concept, the design, or any feature of 
the software, or to have it changed. But I humbly don't want anything 
except perhaps a little different attitude toward the user.

Please forgive me if I said that not quite clearly.

> I think you just don't understand the group and technical dynamics that
> are at work here. Gentoo is not a product, it's a tool kit. Nobody ever
> claimed that drivers moving in and out of 3rd party vendor space to and
> from mainline would be tracked and dealt with and documented. It is up
> to the user to track that and decide what they want to use. It is the
> user that must be aware of possible incompatibilities between his chosen
> packages and deal with the results. A Gentoo system cannot possibly work
> any other way - you built the thing using provided tools, deal with th
> result of your creation.

Is it a design problem or a big change of principles to fix a package to 
check kernel compatibility? (in this case)
Is it impossible or too hard to fix?
Is confirming an issue or fixing it a stain on the reputation of yours, 
gentoo, linux or whatsoever?
Is that petty issue worth so long a discussion about the philosophy of 
gentoo vs <your_unfavorite_OS>? :)
I can understand that it is not possible to track everything and that 
there are more important things to do. But I can not imagine one 
protesting against an improvement on the sole base that "we are not 
<your_unfavorite_OS>" :)

I don't deny user's responsibility for what he's doing. But I don't see 
a reason not to improve a package after a user found an issue and thank 
him for that (at least not blaming him) :)

But please don't count as if I was demanding something, these were but 
philosophical questions. :)

> I don't see why you are getting so upset. The OP asked a question, he
> got an answer. He seems OK with it, so why are you getting offended on
> his behalf?

In no way. I don't know if it is my English that sounds to you so 
differently from what I'm trying to say.

What I could be upset with, is that this story is turning into attacks 
on me which have no basis except misunderstanding.
I only have to repeat that I thought the words said to the OP a little 
harsh and wanted to defend him because everyone once gets into such a 
situation for the first time, and experience is what had been needed 
most when you hadn't it :) so that he wouldn't take it too hard :)
I only wanted to reconcile everyone and instead got blamed myself. But 
that's quite common, so I'm not upset even with that :) I hope I have 
not insulted anyone either.

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Dale]

Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
>
> I only have to repeat that I thought the words said to the OP a little
> harsh and wanted to defend him because everyone once gets into such a
> situation for the first time, and experience is what had been needed
> most when you hadn't it :) so that he wouldn't take it too hard :)
>

You may want to know, Volker is quite known for being "harsh" to use
your word.  Most of us here, just ignore it. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Yuri K. Shatroff]

On 12.03.2013 15:51, Dale wrote:
> You may want to know, Volker is quite known for being "harsh" to use
> your word.  Most of us here, just ignore it.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

:-)

On 12.03.2013 15:51, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 > So don't overthink what happens around here. The reality is more like 
this:
 > user1: I think I made a mistake
 > user2: Yes you did. It was a colossal dumbass mistake and you acted like
 > an idiot
 > user1: hmmmm, yeah. Well I guess I asked for that.
 > user2: yes you did :-) Wanna go grab a beer?

I wasn't too far from taking it this way :)
Maybe the philosophical talks are what makes your brain rest after a 
long developer's working day ;)

Just hoping I've not wasted your time guys :-)

-- 
Best wishes,
Yuri K. Shatroff

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/03/2013 14:13, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
> On 12.03.2013 15:51, Dale wrote:
>> You may want to know, Volker is quite known for being "harsh" to use
>> your word.  Most of us here, just ignore it.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-)
> 
> :-)
> 
> On 12.03.2013 15:51, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> So don't overthink what happens around here. The reality is more like
> this:
>> user1: I think I made a mistake
>> user2: Yes you did. It was a colossal dumbass mistake and you acted like
>> an idiot
>> user1: hmmmm, yeah. Well I guess I asked for that.
>> user2: yes you did :-) Wanna go grab a beer?
> 
> I wasn't too far from taking it this way :)
> Maybe the philosophical talks are what makes your brain rest after a
> long developer's working day ;)
> 
> Just hoping I've not wasted your time guys :-)
> 

If you better understand some of the social and technical dynamics that
happen around here, then it was not time wasted.

These discussions are never really about the issue that started it all,
it always becomes bigger and gets into

"So how does our community really work on a human level?"

The answer is always fuzzy, that's because we are human, not code. We
have opinions and disagree a little but mostly we agree on a lot.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/03/2013 13:35, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote:
>> I don't see why you are getting so upset. The OP asked a question, he
>> got an answer. He seems OK with it, so why are you getting offended on
>> his behalf?
> 
> In no way. I don't know if it is my English that sounds to you so
> differently from what I'm trying to say.



Volker is one of our most colourful characters here. I'm a close second.
Both of are are well known for keeping flame throwers primed and at the
ready.

In an ecosystem like Gentoo, this is always going to be the case; the
average Gentoo user is virtually by definition a more competent
assembler of software components than users of any other distro. With
that comes hotheads, strong opinions and the expectation that the user
can probably help himself through most problems that arise.

Most Gentoo devs like to think the users are perfectly capable of
finding, patching and reporting bugs, with solutions - it's a mutual
respect thing and you can see it play out on the -dev list.

So don't overthink what happens around here. The reality is more like this:

user1: I think I made a mistake
user2: Yes you did. It was a colossal dumbass mistake and you acted like
an idiot
user1: hmmmm, yeah. Well I guess I asked for that.
user2: yes you did :-) Wanna go grab a beer?



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alexander Schwarz]

Am 12.03.2013 11:01, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
> On 12.03.2013 12:46, Alexander Schwarz wrote:
>> Am 12.03.2013 08:33, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
>>>
>>> Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself
>>> ./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage
>>> for?
>>
>> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
>> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>>  wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.
>
> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
> is to make life harder? :)
>

Ok, I know that comparisons are sometimes silly and known to not work at 
times, but here is what I think is currently happening:
There's a long street with various bars. One of them is named "Ubuntu", 
another is called "Fedora" and there's a much smaller bar called "Gentoo".
Every bar has a sign in front, telling everyone what to expect. The sign 
in front of the bar "Ubuntu" states: "free drinks, served by people, 
brought to you. On the other hand we only serve 3 different drinks".
The sign before the bar "Gentoo" states: "please mix your drinks as you 
like, we're not going to serve them to you, we only provide the 
ingredients for free".

Now, most people gather in the bar "Ubuntu" because it does exactly what 
they want: free drinks, nicely served, no worries. But there's also a 
smaller group that prefers exotic drinks, they want to mix freely. So 
they visit "Gentoo" for years.

One day somebody walks in: "oh, uhm, nice bar but why do I have to mix 
drinks myself"? The people in that bar (Gentoo) reply kindly: "well, we 
like it that way, because we want to make sure that those drinks only 
contain what we want in them. "
The stranger replies: "Well, here are just few people, you shouldn't mix 
your own drinks. I think it should be much easier than that."
The guests kindly reply: "Yeah, we totally understand that, but why 
don't you just go to that other bar, called "Ubuntu"? It does EXACTLY 
what you want, no worries."
The stranger replies: "No, you must change, because you need more guests."
The guests reply again: "Yes, but this bar was exactly made this way as 
we like it. It's our place where we are happy. If you turned it into a 
second Ubuntu then we would have no home anymore."

To put it blunt and simple: you're asking a distribution to change 
because you don't like it. Your point is that things don't have to stay 
like they are forever. That is probably a very good point but it rises 
the question: if every single distribution is "easy mode", what's left 
for all the people who're more into doing stuff the hard way?
If Gentoo was the only distribution you would have a really really good 
point and I would jump on your side in a second, as I'm a fan of "make 
it easy for the average user", too. But there's so much choice out there 
that doesn't cost you a penny. So there's simply no need for Gentoo to 
become easy mode, because there are other distributions filling that 
spot quite easily.


> Sorry I didn't get what you meant by *this*. All I'm trying to say is
> that every software is for the user, and blaming user for software 
> deficiencies is unfair. I regard the case in question as a deficiency.
> Would you disagree? I can't find a basis to think the opposite, but if 
> you can, I'd be interested. :)

I stated it above: Gentoo is filling a niche. It's exactly aimed towards 
people who like to tinker, figure stuff out and tailor a system to their 
likings. Every decision you take away from the user makes it easier for 
the user but in turn limits your capabilities to change a system to your 
likings. So, there's quite a logical reason if you stop seeing Gentoo as 
the distribution of choice for the average user.


>
> I'm mixing up as long as both linux and gentoo and other software are 
> software which all serve one purpose: to solve user's tasks. And as 
> for me, all principles are the consequences of this, and not the 
> opposite.
> I don't like the way of personification you resort to (including your 
> opinion of what I do or want which can not be correct), but 
> personally, even not being a beginner, I do not expect things to break 
> every now and then. Probably that's why I'm using Gentoo: because the 
> breakage probability in it (if used properly) is less than in some 
> other distro which is not under one's control.
> I suppose, most users don't care what for Gentoo was meant, why it 
> fares the way it fares: users care for the way it suits their needs. 
> As for me, saying "if this or that don't work, you guys must know that 
> this distro wasn't meant for working right..." is like "you are too 
> stupid to use it" or even more humiliating.
>

Most users don't even care for Gentoo because the installation process 
is complicated (the documentation is great, however). See Gentoo as a 
distribution for mechanics, while Ubuntu is a car that works for everyone.
Once again: you want to turn Gentoo into something it is not. All the 
time you've complained here you could've just used a distribution that 
does exactly what you want. That is highly illogical.


>
> I'm sorry for having you see things I didn't mean, and also sorry for 
> starting this "personalities exchange" since I don't think that 
> mailing lists are a good place for personal opinions.

This I do agree and I will not post further on this matter. If you want 
you can send me an email and we can continue that discussion but I guess 
we shouldn't further annoy our fellow mailing list friends.

Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 11.03.2013 00:05, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 21:53:42 +0100
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Am 10.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Daniel Wagener:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I ran into some trouble about an hour ago…
>>>
>>> My workstation has an onboard Realtek Ethernet which only works
>>> with the r8168 driver. Unfortunately, this driver is not in the
>>> kernel, but available to be compiled as a kernel module. (I guess
>>> because of som patents) That worked for quite some time, until i
>>> thought "hey, you got an hour of time, your workstation is still on
>>> 3.7.4, why don't you just upgrade it to 3.8.2?" So I did, only to
>>> find out that Linus and his friends changed the way drivers are
>>> initialized… (__devinit got unsupported for example)
>>>
>>> Of course, the guys who wrote that r8169 have not changed their
>>> code yet.
>>>
>>> tl;dr:
>>> My network is broken since 3.8.0.
>>>
>>> So for an immediate fix I am emerging 3.7.10 (since emerge
>>> --depclean deleted the Kernel source when it found the source fo
>>> 3.7.8 which got removed as soon as 3.8.2 was emerged…) to get it
>>> working again. For the long run im thinking of buying a PCI(e) card
>>> with Kernel support. Or maybe, if I find some time I will fix the
>>> driver myself.
>>>
>>> My question now is:
>>> Who should I talk to so something like this does not happen again?
>>> A certain gentoo dev, who could issue warnings on emerging kernels,
>>> something like excerpts from the changelog? Myself, because I
>>> missed what I described above? The devs of the r8169?
>>> Linus & co for breaking things?
>>> Myself bcause I forgot something else?
>>> Realtek?
>>> Or someone completely different?
>>>
>> so, you are using a superfluous external driver. Despite the fact that
>> external drivers are prone to breaking you insist on using the latest
>> kernel, instead using the latest kernel of one of the stable kernel
>> series like 3.4. To add insult to injury you remove kernels after
>> installing instead of after testing.
> well… I guess that sums it up… :(
>
I hope so. But not all is lost. You learnt a lesson, next time someone
does something like that you can act like the resident asshole and I get
a couple of minutes off. Everybody wins. Especially me.