[gentoo-user] no keyboard on fresh install

[gentoo-user] no keyboard on fresh install

[Harry Putnam]

On a fresh install on older dell P4, I've been unable to get the usb
keyboard to respond.

It responds at the grub screen, but once past there... no response

I am running thru a kvm switch, but don't really have the option
without a fair bit of juggling to try it with everything hooked
direct.  I have tried plugging a keyboard direct, with no result.

One other time, long ago, I hit this same problem and it turned out to
be a bios setting.  I don't recall what it was now, but did find some
info in a KVM manual that says the two items below might need setting:

 Set HALT ON ERROR to ALL BUT KEYBOARD.
 In PNP AND PCI SETUP, set PNP OS INSTALLED to YES and set
 USB IRQ to ENABLED.

My bios do not show anything that seems to be similar or even related,
other than a setting to have keyboard errors reported or not... and I
tried that both ways.

This is a Dell system SX280 and says it is bios revision A08.  I've
not seen this particular setup before and it looks unusual to me.

It has headings for:

System
Drivers
Onboard Devices
Video
Performance
Security
Power Management
Maintenance 
Post Behavior


And a list of things under each.  I'm not going to try to snarfle all
that by hand unless it seems likely to be helpful. But I can say that
after a thorough look at them all, I didn't see anything that seemed
to be related.

Anyone have ideas on this?

Re: [gentoo-user] no keyboard on fresh install

[Hinnerk van Bruinehsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On 01.06.2012 10:33, Harry Putnam wrote:
> On a fresh install on older dell P4, I've been unable to get the
> usb keyboard to respond.
> 
> It responds at the grub screen, but once past there... no response
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> Anyone have ideas on this?
> 
> 

So your keyboard works within the bios and in grub, but not once the
pc is booted?

Sounds like a driver-issue to me. You should check the kernel config
for usb and hid options.

CONFIG_HID and CONFIG_USB_HID especially come to my mind.

WKR
Hinnerk
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[gentoo-user] Re: no keyboard on fresh install

[Harry Putnam]

Hinnerk van Bruinehsen <h.v.bruinehsen@fu-berlin.de> writes:

> On 01.06.2012 10:33, Harry Putnam wrote:
>> On a fresh install on older dell P4, I've been unable to get the
>> usb keyboard to respond.
>>
>> It responds at the grub screen, but once past there... no response
>>
> <SNIP>
>>
>> Anyone have ideas on this?
>>
>>
>
> So your keyboard works within the bios and in grub, but not once the
> pc is booted?

Thanks for your response and yes you have it right.

> Sounds like a driver-issue to me. You should check the kernel config
> for usb and hid options.

You'll notice, in another post I announced that problem may have
unexpectedly sidestepped.

> CONFIG_HID and CONFIG_USB_HID especially come to my mind.

(Sorry, can't even check that since I'm now trying to install WinXP
over that gentoo install)

Thanks, when this roles around again sometime I'll have some idea what
to be looking for during kernel build.

I'll say though, and as reported in OP, I once had a very similar
problem that turned out to be a simple bio setting.  It was not so
simple to find the setting, but still just a matter of enabling or
disabling something.... I hope I find my old notes soon.

I was hoping someone might recognize the problem and be able to
remember the bios item[s]

Re: [gentoo-user] no keyboard on fresh install

[Stroller]

On 1 June 2012, at 09:33, Harry Putnam wrote:
> ...
> I am running thru a kvm switch, but don't really have the option
> without a fair bit of juggling to try it with everything hooked
> direct.  I have tried plugging a keyboard direct, with no result.

I don't really understand. You can't try direct, you tried direct. Which?

KVMs are just flakey sometimes.

As discussed at:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/223068
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/252806

I'm inclined to agree with Hinnerk - if the keyboard is recognised by BIOS then it's Linux problem.

However, if you're having keyboard, video or mouse problems and a KVM is in the chain then you *always* remove it as the first step. 

Don't come to us saying "I have this problem and just to confuse the issue it could be the KVM" (something we're unable to help with), instead say "I originally tried with a KVM, but having removed it, that makes no difference".

Please read my full comments in the previous two threads about the flakiness and idiosyncrasies of KVMs. They make it totally impossible to know if the presses sent by the keyboard are the ones received by the computer.

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: no keyboard on fresh install

[Harry Putnam]

Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:

> On 1 June 2012, at 09:33, Harry Putnam wrote:
>> ...
>> I am running thru a kvm switch, but don't really have the option
>> without a fair bit of juggling to try it with everything hooked
>> direct.  I have tried plugging a keyboard direct, with no result.
>
> I don't really understand. You can't try direct, you tried direct. Which?
>
> KVMs are just flakey sometimes.

Perhaps if you consider that KVM is a switch that controls several
components, (keyboard, Video and mouse) it will come to you.

You are at liberty to plug a second keyboard into a USB port.  I have
done that under certain condition in the past and did try that
unsuccessfully, as reported, this time.

>
> As discussed at:
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/223068
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/252806
>

I'm not buying the idea that flakyness rules with KVM.  There may be
flakyness BUT based on my own experience of yrs of KVM use running
gentoo, debian and few tries at a few other distros... always with a
kvm, and currently am running debian on one of the other kvm boxes on
my current setup.

I should be quite a good test case.  Someone, not all that bright, nor
very competent and yet I've been able to run linux, windows and
solaris all on various KVMS for a period of several yrs.... I'd guess
at least 7 yrs.

There were problems from time to time but none that prevented me
continuing to run with a KVM after a pause, sometimes a good one
to get things working.

> I'm inclined to agree with Hinnerk - if the keyboard is recognised
> by BIOS then it's Linux problem

I hope so too, that would be nice.

>
> However, if you're having keyboard, video or mouse problems and a KVM
> is in the chain then you *always* remove it as the first step.

No that is not the case.  As indicated in OP, there is NO mouse
trouble.

> Don't come to us saying "I have this problem and just to confuse the
> issue it could be the KVM" (something we're unable to help with),
> instead say "I originally tried with a KVM, but having removed it,
> that makes no difference".

I guess you've been elected to the post of Sargent at arms in my
absence.

I'm sorry Mr. Sargent but I guess you'll have to evict me.  I will
bring whatever I have problems with here and will try to have done
some homework and to expound the problem as best I can.  Hopefully
better on both counts than this go around.

Please, Mr. Sargent, before you high horse yourself even further into
a corner, and end up looking even more like a bozo, consider these
comments and those below.

-------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      -------- 

Maybe someone, will still read my query and give it some thought.

My idea starts with the premise that it ain't the KVM.

Because some users are livid as to how faulty KVMS are does not make
that the problem here.

In this case it would take a fair bit of diddling around to do a
direct hook up since the kvm is DVI based and I'd need an adaptor I
don't have (other than the one built into the KVM cables).

OK -------        ---------       ---=---       ---------

Now this whole problem may have taken care of itself in an unexpected
way. 

My niece, for whom I'm building this machine has informed me today
that she really really hates trying to run linux and wants to get on
with her work with tools she knows.

Exit the gentoo install, enter an old XP disc I'm now trying to
install. 

I am sorry for the line noise but it still may come to it that I end
up bringing that problem here again.  Mr Sargent may get another
chance to bristle and show his teeth.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: no keyboard on fresh install

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On 1 June 2012, at 09:33, Harry Putnam wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I am running thru a kvm switch, but don't really have the option
>>> without a fair bit of juggling to try it with everything hooked
>>> direct.  I have tried plugging a keyboard direct, with no result.
>>
>> I don't really understand. You can't try direct, you tried direct. Which?
>>
>> KVMs are just flakey sometimes.
>
> Perhaps if you consider that KVM is a switch that controls several
> components, (keyboard, Video and mouse) it will come to you.

Back when my KVM was just a mechanical switch that flipped between A
and B, and only switched VGA, a serial port and a mouse, that was
true.

For years, though, KVMs have tended to man-in-the-middle USB keyboards
and intercept key sequences in order to control switching behaviors.

Being the man in the middle is _very_ tricky, and it's highly unlikely
kvm manufacturers get it perfect. At the very least, it's still
intercepting keystrokes, which means that your input is either funkily
jittered as it buffers looking for a combo, or it means that your
input is incomplete.

I'm not saying that the KVM is necessarily the source of your problem.
I'm saying it's a far more complex device than you envision it to be.

>
> You are at liberty to plug a second keyboard into a USB port.  I have
> done that under certain condition in the past and did try that
> unsuccessfully, as reported, this time.

Makes sense.

>
>>
>> As discussed at:
>> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/user/223068
>> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/252806
>>
>
> I'm not buying the idea that flakyness rules with KVM.  There may be
> flakyness BUT based on my own experience of yrs of KVM use running
> gentoo, debian and few tries at a few other distros... always with a
> kvm, and currently am running debian on one of the other kvm boxes on
> my current setup.
>
> I should be quite a good test case.  Someone, not all that bright, nor
> very competent and yet I've been able to run linux, windows and
> solaris all on various KVMS for a period of several yrs.... I'd guess
> at least 7 yrs.
>
> There were problems from time to time but none that prevented me
> continuing to run with a KVM after a pause, sometimes a good one
> to get things working.

I get it. You fancy yourself an expert on KVMs. Do you realize that
KVM hardware is liable to be around as diverse as GPS and serial
dongle hardware? That's pretty significant.

>
>> I'm inclined to agree with Hinnerk - if the keyboard is recognised
>> by BIOS then it's Linux problem
>
> I hope so too, that would be nice.

Seems likely, given that you tried plugging the USB keyboard in
directly without the KVM connected to a USB port. (You did, didn't
you?)

>
>>
>> However, if you're having keyboard, video or mouse problems and a KVM
>> is in the chain then you *always* remove it as the first step.
>
> No that is not the case.  As indicated in OP, there is NO mouse
> trouble.

"keyboard, video _or_ mouse problems." And he's been trying to offer
you advice on diagnostic procedure. And the advice makes sense at its
core; simply the system as much as possible, then add pieces back
until something breaks. The more you grant utmost confidence or
assumptions about a component or behavior, the more things boil down
to errors you think were "impossible."

>
>> Don't come to us saying "I have this problem and just to confuse the
>> issue it could be the KVM" (something we're unable to help with),
>> instead say "I originally tried with a KVM, but having removed it,
>> that makes no difference".
>
> I guess you've been elected to the post of Sargent at arms in my
> absence.

Here, again, he tried offering you advice on how to present your
problem in the clearest way possible, maximally avoiding confusion,
and you've only taken offense.

[snip irony]

> -------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      --------
>
> Maybe someone, will still read my query and give it some thought.
>
> My idea starts with the premise that it ain't the KVM.

For certainty's sake, have you tried plugging the keyboard in directly
without the KVM plugged into the USB port? I don't think it's
particularly likely that the problem is the KVM, either, but I do see
it as a plausible source of interference if both devices are plugged
into separate ports.

USB normally handles multiple USB keyboards just fine, but I don't
know how your BIOS's 'legacy' support handles it, and there have been
rumblings in areas of multi-user workstations lately, so it's
plausible things are changing.

And, again, there's the potential of the KVM having a faulty
implementation of USB HID proxy behavior.

>
> Because some users are livid as to how faulty KVMS are does not make
> that the problem here.

(Again, nobody was trying to pin the blame on the KVM, they were
trying to verify that the problem _wasn't_ the KVM).

>
> In this case it would take a fair bit of diddling around to do a
> direct hook up since the kvm is DVI based and I'd need an adaptor I
> don't have (other than the one built into the KVM cables).

We get it; removing the KVM completely from the loop is a PITA, and
you've convinced yourself it's not worthwhile.

I assume it has multiple USB plugs, one for each upstream computer.
Can that KVM power itself from a USB port other than the one it's
currently passing keyboard input to? (I assume so, or you'd have to
work around state loss issues when switching between upstream
devices.)

>
> OK -------        ---------       ---=---       ---------
>
> Now this whole problem may have taken care of itself in an unexpected
> way.
>
> My niece, for whom I'm building this machine has informed me today
> that she really really hates trying to run linux and wants to get on
> with her work with tools she knows.
>
> Exit the gentoo install, enter an old XP disc I'm now trying to
> install.

You chose the just about the absolute worst distro I can imagine for a
Linux newbie to have to cope with, and you gave a spectacularly poor
demonstration of setting it up. Technical hurdles happen, but with
Gentoo they really hurt when they do.

For your niece, I would recommend the LXDE variant of Ubuntu or
Debian; it has a look and feel very similar to Windows XP...right down
to keyboard shortcuts.

> I am sorry for the line noise but it still may come to it that I end
> up bringing that problem here again.

[ad hominem trolling snipped]

Incidentally, the BIOS setting you were probably looking for is either
"USB Legacy Keyboard" support, "USB handoff" or "OS Supports USB".
Something along those lines. Depends on the BIOS manufacturer and the
age of the system. And probably other things.

-- 
:wq

[gentoo-user] Re: no keyboard on fresh install

[Harry Putnam]

Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> writes:

First off, thanks, thanks and thanks for the details and sharing of
your experience.

Also helpful tips and suggestions concerning my niece and linux
distros.  All very helpful and appreciated.

Saving both yours and Strollers' posts since as you've noted both are
a good jump above my paygrade and the info is worth keeping.  Further,
`Sargent' Stroller has helped me on repeated other occasions, and
always to good effect.

OH, yeah, and the incidental comments.. thanks for that too.
Unfortunately the only thing I see in the entire BIOS that even
mentions USB is a switch to activate or deactivate those USB ports on
the front panel.

But anyway, all is a moot point for the moment.

Michael M. wrote:
> I get it. You fancy yourself an expert on KVMs. Do you realize that
> KVM hardware is liable to be around as diverse as GPS and serial
> dongle hardware? That's pretty significant.

Here I must clarify a little.  `Fancying' ones self an expert does not
often begin with the thought: 

  "I'm a dimwit with little expertise ....."

And continue with the thought:

  and yet have been able to run linux, windows and Solaris through
  various brands of KVMs for years.  Ergo, KVMs must be stable enough
  to allow that circumstance.

as was expressed in OP.

And it was said against the notion that running a KVM was akin to
balancing a playing card on its edge in a high wind (without bending).

I should add to be fair that my usage is very minor.  Nothing
commercial whatsoever, not even anything that could not be lost
entirely and started over without out much of a dent...  strictly
lightweight usage, so fiddling with a KVM is always an
option... probably not so in the usage of many on this list.