From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RiabT-0004oM-Lr for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:50:43 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1319921C040; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:50:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ey0-f181.google.com (mail-ey0-f181.google.com [209.85.215.181]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C92A21C023 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:49:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by eaai1 with SMTP id i1so12473251eaa.40 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dWxGHGay1LO1hGATKonldZ1q7mB4RG2HZFFpy0lT4kI=; b=oXttcRtwwreHWOGy90YiKK9WYEt4o/eCKdHZ7NaI+cRQgsgohEkMYeLk3r6gUeW6b8 bnUGwHbPCX60H/+ID2n8iCV8ufCBco3R2YKhHWTkg17aTciA5RIY6LW7sEZAha5IfDja YLEwE9vq1kVlrhv7/nRp0bYUXx+e9LaCxufQA= Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.120.14 with SMTP id fw14mr13568624bkc.53.1325720969443; Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.177.18 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4F04E1B4.3050901@gmail.com> References: <20111115062115.GA3262@waltdnes.org> <20111121104724.GC7461@waltdnes.org> <20111201194544.GD4455@waltdnes.org> <20120103100445.GD1961@waltdnes.org> <20120103123209.GB2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103131346.GC2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103143120.GF2410@nicolas-desktop> <20120103221555.22c778a3@digimed.co.uk> <4F038C23.5030708@gmail.com> <4F04E1B4.3050901@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:49:29 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Beta test Gentoo with mdev instead of udev; version 3 From: Michael Mol To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: bdf36f3e-4b62-4937-b09c-891b47d62c3c X-Archives-Hash: c17894427a6d5f90132ecdfa805771c4 On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Dale wrote: > Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Pandu Poluan =C2=A0wr= ote: >>> >>> On Jan 4, 2012 6:19 AM, "Dale" =C2=A0wrote: >>>> >>>> Neil Bothwick wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 15:31:20 +0100, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I know. It's the "I want to get the rid of initramfs" thing that loo= ks >>>>>> crazy to me. >>>>> >>>>> No one is saying they want to get rid of the initramfs, because they >>>>> are >>>>> not using one. What people object to is being forced to start using >>>>> one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> You got that right. =C2=A0I have not used one since I started using Ge= ntoo. >>>> =C2=A0Now, I may very well have to start. =C2=A0I hope mdev gets to a = point where >>>> it >>>> works really well on desktop systems. >>>> >>> You were there in the thread linked by Walt, udev is just one of severa= l >>> packages maintained by RH people that *demands* /usr to be mounted duri= ng >>> boot. >>> >>> And the RH devels insistence to deprecate /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin... >>> >>> I'm getting depressed. One battle might be won (mdev vs udev), but >>> there's >>> still a war against the RH braindeadness... >> >> I'm sorry to tell you this, but (as admirable as it could be), the >> mdev hack to use it instead of udev is not a "victory". We are not at >> war, in the first place; and in the second place, the mdev hack would >> be used by a handful of guys bent on refusing a change that, like it >> or not, would in the end come. Like Gentoo on FreeBSD, it would be a >> nice hack, maybe even worthy of applause, but in the end irrelevant: a >> toy. A cute, entertaining (and, in a few cases, useful) toy. But a toy >> nonetheless. >> >> The heavy development will continue to happen in udev, and the devices >> that will dominate in the future (touchscreens, bluetooth input and >> audio devices, hardware that has a highly dynamic change rate) will >> only be supported by udev. The mdev hack will be useful maybe to only >> some guys, and even then udev would be able to do the same (and more). >> >> The use of an initramfs (or, alternatively, having /usr in the same >> partition as /), and maybe the move of /bin to /usr/bin and /lib to >> /usr/lib will be made, and in the future most of the interesting >> software will simply assume that this is how a system works. Maybe we >> will even stop to use the ridiculous short directory names from the >> stone age, and we will start using sensible names: >> >> /usr -> =C2=A0/System >> /etc -> =C2=A0/Config >> /var -> =C2=A0/Variable >> >> I feel a deep respect for the people working on making mdev a >> "replacement" of udev; it is not an easy task (even if it only works >> for a really small subset of the use cases udev covers), and something >> that I certainly would never do. But their hack (as beautiful as it >> may be) will never be used by the majority of Linux users, and >> probably not even by the majority of Gentoo users (if my >> interpretation of the discussion on gentoo-dev is correct). And with >> the pass of time it will be harder and harder to keep the hack working >> with new hardware, new software, and new use cases. >> >> But, hey, this is FOSS; you guys go nuts hacking in whatever feature >> (or anti-feature) you like. As in the case of this mdev hack, it may >> even be included in the Gentoo ebuilds. Just don't expect it to be >> supported forever, don't expect it to support general-purpose setups, >> and certainly don't call it "a victory". It's just the same history as >> always: the people writing the code are the ones calling the shots. >> >> Regards. > > > I wonder how many times this has been said about other software that is n= ow > in wide spread use. =C2=A0Keep in mind, some people think Gentoo is dying= and has > been dying for YEARS. =C2=A0That's not just one package but a whole distr= o. Netcraft confirms it? > > Will mdev replace udev, I dunno. =C2=A0Thing is, you don't know that it w= on't > either. =C2=A0Someone could come along and help Walter and make it better= than > udev ever dreamed of being. It's not that mdev will be better than udev, or udev better than mdev, it's that they'll be able to service different roles very effectively. > I just have to mention hal too. =C2=A0Lots of people thought that was the= new > sliced bread and frozen pizza. =C2=A0It sure did fall hard tho. For a fair number of use cases, udev works pretty well. It's been around for far longer, too. > As I said about my ex once, time tells. =C2=A0Sometimes, time is the only= thing > that does tell too. =C2=A0Reminds me of wine although I don't drink it. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to look at udev and mdev as winner or loser. I'm not trying to be even-handed or fair in this; I just think they service different needs. Currently, the only advantage I see for udev in a server is the ability to give network interfaces meaningful names... --=20 :wq