From: Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com>
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd? [ Was: The End Is Near ... ]
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:27:17 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+czFiB5B4N7yhD9OG12Uc0ggCqLS7WkhhSUAany9Yzm4qBEvw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20120322211358.GA19803@waltdnes.org>
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 09:35:55PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote
>
>> What we're talking about with systemd vs openrc, and things like ssh'd
>> first-time initialization is all within the realm of responsibility of
>> the packager. It's a shift in the way the distribution itself works.
>> We're not talking about a scenario where you shunt things upstream, so
>> the whole "your position would have rejected Linux" angle is a red
>> herring.
>
> This is a frustrating game of whack-a-mole. Person A comes up with a
> position, I rebut it, and then person B comes up with a different
> position, and I have to rebut it.. There have been people in this
> thread who have said that the program best knows what it needs, and
> should handle its own initialization. That was what I was replying to.
> I'll reply to your position now.
>
>> Why does that spawned process have to be sshd? Why can't it be some
>> shell script which does the one-time checks, and then launches sshd
>> itself?
>
> So instead of the initscript doing the checking+setup and launching
> the service, it launches a a second script... which does the
> checking+setup and launches the service <FACEPALM>. See my post with
> the joke of digging a second hole to dump the dirt from the first hole
> into. Instead of one script, we now have two scripts. This is *NOT*
> simplification.
No. In a system V scenario, you'd probably just symlink to the
genericized init script. In the systemd scenario, as I understand it,
you have a configuration file (distinct from a script), and you'd
include the path to the genericized init script there.
What I'm talking about is an implementation of the adapter pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapter_pattern
If there are going to be competing init systems (and there will be),
and a service needs to be compatible with both (and there will be such
services), then that's going to be the most elegant solution.
>
>> Why does that shell script need to be distributed as part of the
>> init system's package, and not part of the package associated with
>> the service?
>
> I don't understand what you're arguing here. *THE INITSCRIPT IS OWNED
> BY THE SERVICE PACKAGE*, not by the init package. E.g. net-misc/openssh,
> not sys-apps/openrc.
>
> waltdnes@d530 ~ $ equery b /etc/init.d/sshd
> * Searching for /etc/init.d/sshd ...
> net-misc/openssh-5.8_p1-r1 (/etc/init.d/sshd)
Sure. And that's what I was arguing. Though by the sound of it,
there's stuffed in the openrc package which doesn't need to be there,
and a blog post flameeyes posted today suggests the systemd package is
intended to absorb the hardware database. (
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2012/03/refreshing-a-4-years-old-problem )
>
>> Having the shell script be part of the package associated with the
>> service keeps bugs related to that script associated with that
>> package.
>
> That's the way it is right now. See above.
And that's the way it should be.
>
>> At least, that's the way I see it. Any issue of compatibility between
>> the two can be addressed by the service's package manager, either by
>> adaption via that script, or by expressing an explicit dependency on
>> one init architecture or another.
>
> My point in this whole argument is that there is some checking and
> setup that has to be done before launch. Therefore shuffling off some
> or all of the shellscript code to another script is a pointless "shell
> game" (sorry) that adds no value.
See reference to the adapter pattern above.
Systemd has its merits in its capabilities. System V init has merits
in that it's far more portable. Open source software which operates as
a system service will need to support both.
There are, of course, things I loathe. I loathe the apparent mindset
behind systemd and behind udev, wherein all things belong as part of a
monolithic system. That runs counter to principles of modular design,
portability and even systemic stability in changing things. I loathe
the desire to lunge forward without working out a transition plan, or
even having the appearance of interest in one. And I loathe the
terrible PR.
--
:wq
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2012-03-23 1:29 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 110+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2012-03-17 4:11 [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17 4:19 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17 4:37 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17 4:53 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17 5:19 ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-17 6:25 ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-17 11:53 ` [gentoo-user] systemd? [ Was: The End Is Near ... ] Alan Mackenzie
2012-03-18 0:48 ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-18 1:45 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 2:12 ` Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-18 2:41 ` Joshua Murphy
2012-03-18 2:52 ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18 2:20 ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18 2:30 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 3:02 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 3:27 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 8:02 ` Graham Murray
2012-03-18 8:49 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 11:23 ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18 19:25 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 19:48 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 19:54 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 19:59 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2012-03-19 13:33 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 13:57 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 13:15 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 13:56 ` Dale
2012-03-18 22:23 ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-18 22:35 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19 22:58 ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-19 23:18 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-21 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-21 14:29 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-21 16:02 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-21 22:55 ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-22 1:35 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-22 21:13 ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-22 22:07 ` Mike Edenfield
2012-03-23 1:27 ` Michael Mol [this message]
2012-03-29 6:52 ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-19 13:30 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-18 2:48 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 2:57 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 4:17 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 7:28 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-19 13:20 ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-19 13:49 ` Alex Schuster
2012-03-19 13:13 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 14:33 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-19 23:11 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17 8:00 ` [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Andrea Conti
2012-03-17 12:03 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-19 13:17 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 13:27 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-19 23:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19 23:33 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 23:49 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-20 1:13 ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-20 8:41 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17 11:59 ` Alan Mackenzie
2012-03-17 12:05 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17 12:50 ` Tanstaafl
2012-03-17 12:54 ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-17 14:03 ` Peter Humphrey
2012-03-18 9:52 ` Dale
2012-03-18 18:01 ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-18 20:39 ` Dale
2012-03-18 22:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19 0:30 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-19 2:03 ` William Kenworthy
2012-03-19 13:40 ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-19 13:56 ` Alex Schuster
2012-03-29 9:35 ` [gentoo-user] chicken/eff issue with suspend-to-disk/hibernate problem [Was: The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way!] J. Roeleveld
2012-03-29 10:40 ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-29 13:51 ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-29 14:04 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-29 23:05 ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-18 17:30 ` [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Tanstaafl
2012-03-17 14:08 ` Jarry
2012-03-19 13:25 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17 15:10 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 17:36 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17 17:58 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 18:38 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-17 19:40 ` pk
2012-03-17 20:09 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-17 20:28 ` pk
2012-03-18 9:51 ` Dale
2012-03-18 13:03 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 13:52 ` Dale
2012-03-19 13:22 ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-18 11:44 ` [gentoo-user] " walt
2012-03-17 20:15 ` [gentoo-user] " Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 0:43 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-18 2:18 ` William Kenworthy
2012-03-18 3:57 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 6:30 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 7:26 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 7:54 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 12:01 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 12:47 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-18 13:23 ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 14:08 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-18 13:29 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-18 17:38 ` Tanstaafl
2012-03-29 9:48 ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-18 13:27 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 23:02 ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2012-03-18 8:16 ` [gentoo-user] " Walter Dnes
2012-03-19 9:48 ` Helmut Jarausch
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