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From: Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com>
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd? [ Was: The End Is Near ... ]
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:27:17 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+czFiB5B4N7yhD9OG12Uc0ggCqLS7WkhhSUAany9Yzm4qBEvw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20120322211358.GA19803@waltdnes.org>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 09:35:55PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote
>
>> What we're talking about with systemd vs openrc, and things like ssh'd
>> first-time initialization is all within the realm of responsibility of
>> the packager. It's a shift in the way the distribution itself works.
>> We're not talking about a scenario where you shunt things upstream, so
>> the whole "your position would have rejected Linux" angle is a red
>> herring.
>
>  This is a frustrating game of whack-a-mole.  Person A comes up with a
> position, I rebut it, and then person B comes up with a different
> position, and I have to rebut it..  There have been people in this
> thread who have said that the program best knows what it needs, and
> should handle its own initialization.  That was what I was replying to.
> I'll reply to your position now.
>
>> Why does that spawned process have to be sshd? Why can't it be some
>> shell script which does the one-time checks, and then launches sshd
>> itself?
>
>  So instead of the initscript doing the checking+setup and launching
> the service, it launches a a second script... which does the
> checking+setup and launches the service <FACEPALM>.  See my post with
> the joke of digging a second hole to dump the dirt from the first hole
> into.  Instead of one script, we now have two scripts.  This is *NOT*
> simplification.

No. In a system V scenario, you'd probably just symlink to the
genericized init script. In the systemd scenario, as I understand it,
you have a configuration file (distinct from a script), and you'd
include the path to the genericized init script there.

What I'm talking about is an implementation of the adapter pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapter_pattern

If there are going to be competing init systems (and there will be),
and a service needs to be compatible with both (and there will be such
services), then that's going to be the most elegant solution.

>
>> Why does that shell script need to be distributed as part of the
>> init system's package, and not part of the package associated with
>> the service?
>
>  I don't understand what you're arguing here.  *THE INITSCRIPT IS OWNED
> BY THE SERVICE PACKAGE*, not by the init package.  E.g. net-misc/openssh,
> not sys-apps/openrc.
>
> waltdnes@d530 ~ $ equery b /etc/init.d/sshd
>  * Searching for /etc/init.d/sshd ...
> net-misc/openssh-5.8_p1-r1 (/etc/init.d/sshd)

Sure. And that's what I was arguing. Though by the sound of it,
there's stuffed in the openrc package which doesn't need to be there,
and a blog post flameeyes posted today suggests the systemd package is
intended to absorb the hardware database. (
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2012/03/refreshing-a-4-years-old-problem )

>
>> Having the shell script be part of the package associated with the
>> service keeps bugs related to that script associated with that
>> package.
>
>  That's the way it is right now.  See above.

And that's the way it should be.

>
>> At least, that's the way I see it. Any issue of compatibility between
>> the two can be addressed by the service's package manager, either by
>> adaption via that script, or by expressing an explicit dependency on
>> one init architecture or another.
>
>  My point in this whole argument is that there is some checking and
> setup that has to be done before launch.  Therefore shuffling off some
> or all of the shellscript code to another script is a pointless "shell
> game" (sorry) that adds no value.

See reference to the adapter pattern above.

Systemd has its merits in its capabilities. System V init has merits
in that it's far more portable. Open source software which operates as
a system service will need to support both.

There are, of course, things I loathe. I loathe the apparent mindset
behind systemd and behind udev, wherein all things belong as part of a
monolithic system. That runs counter to principles of modular design,
portability and even systemic stability in changing things. I loathe
the desire to lunge forward without working out a transition plan, or
even having the appearance of interest in one. And I loathe the
terrible PR.

-- 
:wq



  parent reply	other threads:[~2012-03-23  1:29 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 110+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2012-03-17  4:11 [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17  4:19 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17  4:37   ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17  4:53     ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17  5:19 ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-17  6:25 ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-17 11:53   ` [gentoo-user] systemd? [ Was: The End Is Near ... ] Alan Mackenzie
2012-03-18  0:48     ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-18  1:45       ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18  2:12         ` Nikos Chantziaras
2012-03-18  2:41           ` Joshua Murphy
2012-03-18  2:52             ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18  2:20         ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18  2:30           ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18  3:02         ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18  3:27           ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18  8:02         ` Graham Murray
2012-03-18  8:49           ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 11:23             ` Pandu Poluan
2012-03-18 19:25               ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18 19:48                 ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 19:54                 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 19:59                 ` Frank Steinmetzger
2012-03-19 13:33             ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 13:57               ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 13:15         ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 13:56           ` Dale
2012-03-18 22:23           ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-18 22:35             ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19 22:58               ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-19 23:18                 ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-21  4:40                   ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-21 14:29                     ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-21 16:02                       ` Michael Mol
2012-03-21 22:55                         ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-22  1:35                           ` Michael Mol
2012-03-22 21:13                             ` Walter Dnes
2012-03-22 22:07                               ` Mike Edenfield
2012-03-23  1:27                               ` Michael Mol [this message]
2012-03-29  6:52                           ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-19 13:30         ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-18  2:48       ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18  2:57         ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-18  4:17           ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18  7:28             ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-19 13:20               ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-19 13:49                 ` Alex Schuster
2012-03-19 13:13         ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 14:33           ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-19 23:11             ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17  8:00 ` [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Andrea Conti
2012-03-17 12:03   ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-19 13:17   ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 13:27     ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-19 23:04     ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19 23:33       ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-19 23:49         ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-20  1:13           ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-20  8:41             ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17 11:59 ` Alan Mackenzie
2012-03-17 12:05   ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-17 12:50 ` Tanstaafl
2012-03-17 12:54   ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-17 14:03     ` Peter Humphrey
2012-03-18  9:52       ` Dale
2012-03-18 18:01         ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-18 20:39           ` Dale
2012-03-18 22:28             ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-19  0:30               ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-19  2:03                 ` William Kenworthy
2012-03-19 13:40                   ` Eliezer Croitoru
2012-03-19 13:56                   ` Alex Schuster
2012-03-29  9:35                     ` [gentoo-user] chicken/eff issue with suspend-to-disk/hibernate problem [Was: The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way!] J. Roeleveld
2012-03-29 10:40                       ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-29 13:51                         ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-29 14:04                           ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-29 23:05                             ` wdk@moriah
2012-03-18 17:30     ` [gentoo-user] The End Is Near ... or, get the vaseline, they're on the way! Tanstaafl
2012-03-17 14:08   ` Jarry
2012-03-19 13:25   ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-17 15:10 ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 17:36   ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2012-03-17 17:58     ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 18:38   ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-17 19:40     ` pk
2012-03-17 20:09       ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-17 20:28         ` pk
2012-03-18  9:51           ` Dale
2012-03-18 13:03             ` Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18 13:52               ` Dale
2012-03-19 13:22         ` Neil Bothwick
2012-03-18 11:44       ` [gentoo-user] " walt
2012-03-17 20:15   ` [gentoo-user] " Alan McKinnon
2012-03-18  0:43     ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-18  2:18       ` William Kenworthy
2012-03-18  3:57       ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18  6:30         ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18  7:26           ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18  7:54             ` Michael Mol
2012-03-18 12:01               ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 12:47                 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-18 13:23                   ` Bruce Hill, Jr.
2012-03-18 14:08                     ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2012-03-18 13:29           ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-18 17:38             ` Tanstaafl
2012-03-29  9:48           ` J. Roeleveld
2012-03-18 13:27         ` Mark Knecht
2012-03-17 23:02   ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2012-03-18  8:16 ` [gentoo-user] " Walter Dnes
2012-03-19  9:48 ` Helmut Jarausch

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